Heat Slow Orders

[John Bobinyec]

Are there any heat slow orders in effect? Will there be soon?

jb

 

[George Harris]

This is way too general a question. It would be near impossible to give any form of meaningful answer, particularly under the normal definition of "any" as being one or more.

Most railroads have a series of rules relating to temperature, recent disturbance of the ballast, etc. that would trugger a heat order. However, if the maintenance forces notice anything that would indicate the rail being in a significant amount of compression, a heat order would be put into effect in that area even if the generalities are not met.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Are there any heat slow orders in effect? Will there be soon?

jb

Nothing "Official" but here in Texas the temps are running @ Record Highs (102-112) and the Eagles and Sunsets seem to be running consistently Late!(of course UP could be giving priority to their damn Coal Trains and looooong Freights! :angry2: ) Havent checked the Flyers but its Always Hot in Oklahoma in the Summer so not sure! :giggle:

 

[John Bobinyec]

This is way too general a question. It would be near impossible to give any form of meaningful answer, particularly under the normal definition of "any" as being one or more.

Most railroads have a series of rules relating to temperature, recent disturbance of the ballast, etc. that would trugger a heat order. However, if the maintenance forces notice anything that would indicate the rail being in a significant amount of compression, a heat order would be put into effect in that area even if the generalities are not met.

Okay, more specifically, CSX will traditionally put on slow orders which are due to nothing more than elevated temperatures. I hadn't noticed this happening recently, however it might just not have been announced or discussed.

Anyway, the high temps here in NC will be over 100 for about five days in a row starting tomorrow. I'm just wondering whether CSX will slap on the slow orders, or perhaps maybe they fixed the track so they don't have to.

jb

 

[pennyk]

I hate to brag, but right now in Florida, we are one of the "cooler" places in the country. :lol: The rain is gone, and it was 66 degrees this morning in Orlando, however, it is supposed to heat up for the weekend, but nothing compared to Texas, the midwest and the northeast.

I know in the past that CSX in Florida has issued slow orders when the temperature gets above 90 something.

 

[Texan Eagle]

I hate to brag, but right now in Florida, we are one of the "cooler" places in the country. :lol: The rain is gone, and it was 66 degrees this morning in Orlando, however, it is supposed to heat up for the weekend, but nothing compared to Texas, the midwest and the northeast.

66? Here in Dallas right now its only 40 degrees ... oops wrong temperature scale

No idea about Amtrak, but TRE commuter rail has put up slow orders due to heat already according to their website.

 

[afigg]

Okay, more specifically, CSX will traditionally put on slow orders which are due to nothing more than elevated temperatures. I hadn't noticed this happening recently, however it might just not have been announced or discussed.

Anyway, the high temps here in NC will be over 100 for about five days in a row starting tomorrow. I'm just wondering whether CSX will slap on the slow orders, or perhaps maybe they fixed the track so they don't have to.

With the high temperatures forecast for the next 3-4 days for the mid-Atlantic, the south, heat orders should be expected. I would expect the trains traveling south of DC on the CSX tracks to run late for their daytime travel segments.

Could be an adventurous Friday and weekend due to the catenary on the southern end of the NEC and on the portions of the New Haven line where the catenary has not replaced yet.

 

[Trogdor]

Okay, more specifically, CSX will traditionally put on slow orders which are due to nothing more than elevated temperatures.

As George already noted, pretty much all railroads have rules of this sort. It is not unique to CSX.

 

[Ryan]

CSX seems to have much stricter rules and has heat orders far more often than other roads.

And just on cue, MARC just tweeted that slow orders are in effect on the Brunswick Line this afternoon.

 

[AlanB]

CSX seems to have much stricter rules and has heat orders far more often than other roads.

Actually the real problem is that CSX's rules are far more restrictive to passenger service than to freight service. Apparently in their world it's OK to put a freight train on the ground at speed, potentially unleashing hazardous chemicals that could kill hundreds if not thousands, but putting a passenger train on the ground isn't OK.

So whatever speed is imposed for freight, passenger rail is set 10 MPH lower than what freight can run at.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

CSX seems to have much stricter rules and has heat orders far more often than other roads.

And just on cue, MARC just tweeted that slow orders are in effect on the Brunswick Line this afternoon.

The reason that CSX is so sensitive about slow orders is because a heat kink caused the eastbound Capitol Limited to derail at Kensington, Maryland 10 years ago.

It was 96 degrees at 1:55 that afternoon on July 29, 2002 when the train approached Kensington. The Cap was traveling 60 miles per hour when it hit the kink, and 11 cars derailed, including 4 that went over on their sides.

The cause was not simply the heat. Four days before the derailment, a track tamping crew had failed to properly tamp the ballast. Additionally, the slow order was accidentally lifted.

 

[AlanB]

CSX seems to have much stricter rules and has heat orders far more often than other roads.

And just on cue, MARC just tweeted that slow orders are in effect on the Brunswick Line this afternoon.

The reason that CSX is so sensitive about slow orders is because a heat kink caused the eastbound Capitol Limited to derail at Kensington, Maryland 10 years ago.

I'd buy that more if 1) the fact is that heat really had nothing to do with that wreck, it was all about failures on CSX's part, and 2) if as I noted above, CSX didn't have higher standards for passenger trains.

It's more like CSX took advantage of that wreck to claim that things are worse for pax rail, so that they could move more freight at higher speeds without having to get freight out of the way for pax rail.

 

[Ryan]

CSX also put the Auto Train on the ground down in Florida quite a few years back due to a sun kink.

 

[Trogdor]

CSX seems to have much stricter rules and has heat orders far more often than other roads.

Actually the real problem is that CSX's rules are far more restrictive to passenger service than to freight service. Apparently in their world it's OK to put a freight train on the ground at speed, potentially unleashing hazardous chemicals that could kill hundreds if not thousands, but putting a passenger train on the ground isn't OK.

So whatever speed is imposed for freight, passenger rail is set 10 MPH lower than what freight can run at.

That's not true.

Freight trains must reduce their speed by 10 mph from their normal maximum speed, and passenger trains must reduce by 20 mph, so the reduction is 10 mph greater, but heat restrictions don't go below 30 mph for freights or 40 mph for passenger trains, but I don't think there are any cases where CSX will allow freight train speeds higher than passenger train speeds.

 

[AlanB]

CSX seems to have much stricter rules and has heat orders far more often than other roads.

Actually the real problem is that CSX's rules are far more restrictive to passenger service than to freight service. Apparently in their world it's OK to put a freight train on the ground at speed, potentially unleashing hazardous chemicals that could kill hundreds if not thousands, but putting a passenger train on the ground isn't OK.

So whatever speed is imposed for freight, passenger rail is set 10 MPH lower than what freight can run at.

That's not true.

Freight trains must reduce their speed by 10 mph from their normal maximum speed, and passenger trains must reduce by 20 mph, so the reduction is 10 mph greater, but heat restrictions don't go below 30 mph for freights or 40 mph for passenger trains, but I don't think there are any cases where CSX will allow freight train speeds higher than passenger train speeds.

I can't recall right now which one(s), but I do recall seeing a press release from either MARC, VRE, and/or Amtrak complaining about the fact that CSX was forcing passenger trains to run 10 MPH slower than freight trains when under heat restrictions.

That was from a couple of years ago, so I suppose that it is possible that CSX quietly changed that policy.

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, VRE has an excellent explanation:

http://www.vre.org/feedback/frequently_asked_questions/faq_heat_orders.htm

Why Can Freight Trains Go Faster Than Passenger Trains during heat restrictions?

Simply, they can't and don't. Freight trains maximum speed limit is 60mph, passenger trains maximum speed limit is 70mph. During heat restrictions passenger trains must travel 20mph lower than the speed limit and freight trains 10mph lower than the posted speed limit. This effectively makes freight trains and passenger trains travel the same speed. However, as passenger trains slow as they stop and start for station stops, the freight trains do not. Hence why they seem to be moving faster.

It also backs up the fact that CSX applies them more broadly (than NS, at least):

Statements from CSX and Norfolk Southern:

CSX (from CSX)

Heat orders are issued when the forecast is for temperatures to be around 90 degrees. The effect is to reduce speeds of freight trains by 10 mph, but not lower than 30 mph, and to reduce the speed of passenger trains by 20 mph, but not lower than 40 mph. The intent is to increase the measure of safety in hot weather that might cause continuous welded rail to bend or kink as a way of relieving pressure.

Norfolk Southern (from NS)

Norfolk Southern does not issue blanket heat restrictions or heat orders. NS inspects the track with sufficient frequency in hot weather that if problems are detected, NS orders trains to run more slowly through the affected area until the problem is corrected.

Why do Norfolk Southern and CSX have different policies?

The short answer is that each railroad operates efficient and safe. Railroading is an inexact science and many challenges faced are met in different, but equally effective, ways. The approach to track restrictions in hot weather is one of those challenges.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The Heartland Flyer "horned in" almost an hour late last night; so I'm guessing Slow Orders are up for the BNSF.

 

[Jheilman43402]

We are on the CZ and I saw 80mph on my GPS most of the day. We are still running 2.5 hours late but saw 80 most of the day and temps were in upper 90s all day

 

[jis]

CSX also put the Auto Train on the ground down in Florida quite a few years back due to a sun kink.

Wasn't that established to be due to improper ballasting on that curve? I may be wrong but I vaguely recollect that.

 

[Ryan]

It's been a while since I read the report, but I remember it being a combination of both. The sun kink likely wouldn't have happened if the ballast had been to standards, but it also wouldn't have happened had the rail not heated up.

I'll have to see if I can dig up the report and give it another look.

 

[jis]

Incidentally on NEC South, when they know for sure that temperatures will be high over a period they can take selective action to mitigate by temporarily increasing tension on the catenary, so that when heated up they would not sag as much. But then they have to reverse that before things cool down or deal with a bunch of snapped catenary.

 

[xyzzy]

Wasn't that established to be due to improper ballasting on that curve? I may be wrong but I vaguely recollect that.

Yes. Recent track maintenance had reduced the BSW (ballast shoulder width) below CSX standards of 6" on the inside of the curve and 12" on the outside. Note that some railroads use 12" on both sides, even on straight sections of track. Might explain why CSX is more likely to issue heat slow orders.

 

[EB_OBS]

Are there any heat slow orders in effect? Will there be soon?

jb

There is currently a 415 mile heat restriction in effect on the High-Line from 12pm to 8pm between Minot, ND and Shelby, MT.

It's been in effect for the last three days that I'm aware of. Passenger train speeds limited to 60mph while freight trains are limited to 40mph.

I also seen one initial report that said heat kinks may have been the cause of the recent freight train derailment west of Williston, ND.

 

[George Harris]

Wasn't that established to be due to improper ballasting on that curve? I may be wrong but I vaguely recollect that.

Yes. Recent track maintenance had reduced the BSW (ballast shoulder width) below CSX standards of 6" on the inside of the curve and 12" on the outside. Note that some railroads use 12" on both sides, even on straight sections of track. Might explain why CSX is more likely to issue heat slow orders.

It is hard to have a wide ballast shoulder if you do not have a wide enough fill to hold it.

 

[Agent]

Looks like the California Zephyr had a slow order on the BNSF in southern Iowa last night (6/28).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daat4pTigZI

After Amtrak went by, they asked for the temperature at Ottumwa, Iowa and were told 91 degrees as of forty minutes earlier.