Hiawatha discussion

[OmahaRoad]

Under normal circumstances, changing the ticket in the app isn’t a big deal. Part of the issue might be, though, if the going rate of your new train is higher than your existing ticket, then you’d have to buy up to the higher fare. Last-minute changes also mean you can’t use any discounts that you could have used with a ticket booked earlier (such as RPA).

There’s also the chance that a train sells out, which I guess is more of an issue of capacity availability (pre-COVID, the Hiawatha was running seven-car trains; recently they just got back to five). In theory the new fare structure will encourage people to take the less-popular trains, but even still, it would be nice if we could get back to the old capacity. For people taking day trips (which is a significant portion of Hiawatha ridership), you have less flexibility in when you can travel vs. those who may be gone for longer (the morning southbounds from Milwaukee are far more popular than the evening southbounds, but a MKE-based traveler going to CHI for the day has no use for the evening southbound trains).

Hopefully this change leads to higher total ridership and revenue, and if it doesn't, then hopefully they're willing to just go back to the pre-COVID setup.

I share the hope that the new fare structures works out. I also hope they get back to the pre-COVID seven car trains; I hadn't even known they were up to 7 cars at one time. My interest in this question is also driven by the fact that the second daily train/TCMC (potentially called the Great River) between Chicago and St. Paul will be extensions of existing Hiawatha trips 333 and 340, according to some sources. I have been informed by those more in the know that at least some of the reason for the service starting sometime in 2024 and not late 2023 is due to equipment issues in Chicago, which doesn't surprise me.

Regardless of the exact equipment used (Horizons or Ventures, etc.), I certainly hope that by the time the second train starts rolling--knock on wood--next year, that it runs with at least 6 cars, if not the pre-COVID 7 cars. It would be a crying shame (though a "good problem," if a self-enforced error) if the second train starts running with only 5 cars, for example, and consistently sells out and creates passenger frustration. If they use Horizon cars, which I understand have an approximate ~70 person capacity, they'd be leaving close to ~140 passengers on the table without the last two cars.

 

[Trogdor]

I share the hope that the new fare structures works out. I also hope they get back to the pre-COVID seven car trains; I hadn't even known they were up to 7 cars at one time. My interest in this question is also driven by the fact that the second daily train/TCMC (potentially called the Great River) between Chicago and St. Paul will be extensions of existing Hiawatha trips 333 and 340, according to some sources. I have been informed by those more in the know that at least some of the reason for the service starting sometime in 2024 and not late 2023 is due to equipment issues in Chicago, which doesn't surprise me.

Regardless of the exact equipment used (Horizons or Ventures, etc.), I certainly hope that by the time the second train starts rolling--knock on wood--next year, that it runs with at least 6 cars, if not the pre-COVID 7 cars. It would be a crying shame (though a "good problem," if a self-enforced error) if the second train starts running with only 5 cars, for example, and consistently sells out and creates passenger frustration. If they use Horizon cars, which I understand have an approximate ~70 person capacity, they'd be leaving close to ~140 passengers on the table without the last two cars.

The seven cars were six coaches plus an unstaffed cafe, which they opened to passengers for seating capacity on 330/332/337/339 due to passenger crowding (IIRC, Amtrak’s labor contract requires a third conductor if they open the seventh car, and Wisconsin only wanted to pay for the extra staff on the busiest trains and not every train). But it still meant that you almost always had plenty of room even with unreserved trains and peak demand.

 

[OmahaRoad]

The seven cars were six coaches plus an unstaffed cafe, which they opened to passengers for seating capacity on 330/332/337/339 due to passenger crowding (IIRC, Amtrak’s labor contract requires a third conductor if they open the seventh car, and Wisconsin only wanted to pay for the extra staff on the busiest trains and not every train). But it still meant that you almost always had plenty of room even with unreserved trains and peak demand.

Aha, I see--interesting! Thank you for the info. That setup makes sense and is smart! I will amend my earlier statement somewhat to say that I hope the Hiawatha gets back to having six regular cars. Though for the CHI-MSP second train, my presumption is that they will almost certainly run a cafe car of some type no matter the total length of the train, owing to the much longer journey and the likely desire by passengers for some sort of food/drink option.

 

[NEPATrainTraveler]

Just came off the Hiawatha today. These Siemens Venture seats are awful! They’re hard as a rock and don’t recline at all (unless the recline function is broken on mine). I really wish Amtrak would have kept on using the Horizon coaches. Also hope these Venture seats don’t spread to the northeast.

 

[jis]

Just came off the Hiawatha today. These Siemens Venture seats are awful! They’re hard as a rock and don’t recline at all (unless the recline function is broken on mine). I really wish Amtrak would have kept on using the Horizon coaches. Also hope these Venture seats don’t spread to the northeast.

Those seats were not chosen by Amtrak or Siemens. Those cars do not belong to Amtrak. Decisions regarding those cars are of the States of the Midwest and California. They do not necessarily have any relation to what the furnishing will be in the Amtrak cars.

 

[NEPATrainTraveler]

Those seats were not chosen by Amtrak or Siemens. Those cars do not belong to Amtrak. Decisions regarding those cars are of the States of the Midwest and California. They do not necessarily have any relation to what the furnishing will be in the Amtrak cars.

Fine,but I still think the seats are terrible.

 

[jis]

Fine,but I still think the seats are terrible.

I was not commenting on that. I was correcting the statement about Amtrak keeping the Horizon seats. My point was that it was not Amtrak’s decision to make.

 

[moselman66]

The recline on those seats involves the seat cusion going forward, making the back tilt, and thus the angle is reclined. Thought might was broken for a minute as well until I figured it out the first time.

 

[chadamfleetrailfan]

Just came off the Hiawatha today. These Siemens Venture seats are awful! They’re hard as a rock and don’t recline at all (unless the recline function is broken on mine). I really wish Amtrak would have kept on using the Horizon coaches. Also hope these Venture seats don’t spread to the northeast.

I'm sorry to hear that the seats of the ventures gave you a negative Hiawatha experience I'm assuming you were in the trainset that was comprised of all ventures? I know there's a Hiawatha trainset that is a mix of ventures and horizons (from what I've seen on the railcam).

As far as the northeast, I haven't seen any reports of plans to have them outside of the midwest routes as of yet. I've only seen them on the Michigan services, the STL services, Carl Sandburg / Illinois Zephyr, and the Hiawathas so far. You might want to pose that question in this room to see if there is any possibility of them happening on any other routes in the future: Midwest Venture discussion 2023 Q3.

I know that unfortunately there isn't that much anyone can do about the comfort level of the seating. If you receive a survey e-mail from Amtrak, you can definitely mention it there just to make sure that your voice gets heard about that to them though.

 

[Amtrak25]

Assuming there was no Cabbage-40 at one end, the cafe car was there as a WiFi base station.

From all the comments I have heard, those seats have got to go. I've heard they are inferior to Brightline's, and Amtrak had at least something to do with it since they were on the design advisory board.

 

[gregg_vw]

Just came off the Hiawatha today. These Siemens Venture seats are awful! They’re hard as a rock and don’t recline at all (unless the recline function is broken on mine). I really wish Amtrak would have kept on using the Horizon coaches. Also hope these Venture seats don’t spread to the northeast.

I found the new seats to be quite firm comparatively, which was a surprise to my hindquarters. However, the ride overall turned out to be no less comfortable than before, and I arrived feeling fine. I don't know, but the firmness may help the seats hold up longer. And they in fact recline if you move the seat bottom forward.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

As far as the northeast, I haven't seen any reports of plans to have them outside of the midwest routes as of yet. I've only seen them on the Michigan services, the STL services, Carl Sandburg / Illinois Zephyr, and the Hiawathas so far.

Are we just dismissing the images of the seats in the Amtrak Airo press release video? Might be just to do so, I don't know. Introducing Amtrak Airo, a Modern Passenger Experience | Amtrak

In addition to the Northeast Regional, the new trains will operate on other routes including the Empire Service, Virginia Services, Keystone Service, Downeaster, Amtrak Cascades, Maple Leaf, New Haven/Springfield Service, Palmetto, Carolinian, Pennsylvanian, Vermonter, Ethan Allen Express and Adirondack.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Assuming there was no Cabbage-40 at one end, the cafe car was there as a WiFi base station.

From all the comments I have heard, those seats have got to go. I've heard they are inferior to Brightline's, and Amtrak had at least something to do with it since they were on the design advisory board.

Hmm, I had not heard that the seats are inferior to Brightline's...if so, that is a major, major error on the state buying consortium and Amtrak. Embarrassing, really! Now I am interested to know who the seat manufacturers are. In a previous job, I once did some research on transit and rail seat manufacturers in the U.S., and let me say that there aren't that many, so it would be even sadder if Brightline and Amtrak used the same manufacturer but Amtrak specced worse (read: likely cheaper) seats. But not surprising!

 

[jis]

Are we just dismissing the images of the seats in the Amtrak Airo press release video? Might be just to do so, I don't know. Introducing Amtrak Airo, a Modern Passenger Experience | Amtrak

They are just artist's impressions. When this video was made they hadn't quite decided how wide the seats will be even, so it is hard to imagine that what is depicted there is the final product.

The design team was pushing for 19-20" wide seats with a 34" wide aisle which is sufficient to meet the ADA requirement. That would be wider than the Brightline seats. But the other seat parameter, the pitch, was also yet to be finalized.

At the end of the day, how much a seat will recline is primarily determined by what is the seat pitch, larger the pitch, more the recline possible. Reclining a seat by pushing the base forward instead of reclining the back into the lap of the passenger behind is not inherently inferior if done right. Afterall that is how the seats in the Amtrak Roomettes recline as do all the lie flat seats on airlines, in their reclined mode.

So we will just have to see what Amtrak actually comes up with. But it is almost certain that it will be quite different from the Midwest sets in which the consortium went for the cheapest.

 

[moselman66]

Hmm, I had not heard that the seats are inferior to Brightline's...if so, that is a major, major error on the state buying consortium and Amtrak. Embarrassing, really! Now I am interested to know who the seat manufacturers are. In a previous job, I once did some research on transit and rail seat manufacturers in the U.S., and let me say that there aren't that many, so it would be even sadder if Brightline and Amtrak used the same manufacturer but Amtrak specced worse (read: likely cheaper) seats. But not surprising!

One youtube review I saw said they were virtually the same seats on Brightline and the new Amtrak Venture cars, and another who did not specifically compare Brightline to Amtrak had very similar comments about seating on Miami-Orlando. Unexpectedly stiff and visually thin, odd / limited recline, didn't end up being as bad as they initially feared given the distance. But such reviews are fully subjective of course.

Do we actually know if they are substantially different and worse then coach on Brightline? The "how the heck does this recline work" seems common to both.

 

[jis]

One youtube review I saw said they were virtually the same seats on Brightline and the new Amtrak Venture cars, and another who did not specifically compare Brightline to Amtrak had very similar comments about seating on Miami-Orlando. Unexpectedly stiff and visually thin, odd / limited recline, didn't end up being as bad as they initially feared given the distance. But such reviews are fully subjective of course.

Do we actually know if they are substantially different and worse then coach on Brightline? The "how the heck does this recline work" seems common to both.

They work pretty much the same as the recline on the Amtrak seats in the Roomettes. The base slides forward. All airline lie flat seats also work the same way. The question is how far it moves forward, and that depends on the seat pitch. If the seat pitch is low then the tilt will be low.

 

[Amtrak25]

What I have read on other boards is that Brightline's cushioning is thicker. The Venture Business Class seats are are just as hard. I don't know a thing about VIA Rail's.

 

[OmahaRoad]

One youtube review I saw said they were virtually the same seats on Brightline and the new Amtrak Venture cars, and another who did not specifically compare Brightline to Amtrak had very similar comments about seating on Miami-Orlando. Unexpectedly stiff and visually thin, odd / limited recline, didn't end up being as bad as they initially feared given the distance. But such reviews are fully subjective of course.

Do we actually know if they are substantially different and worse then coach on Brightline? The "how the heck does this recline work" seems common to both.

Circles within circles, it seems! I would be equally unsurprised if this whole "Venture coach seats are garbage and/or worse than Brightline's" situation ends up to be a bit overheated and off the mark. Like many things, I'd guess that the ultimate verdict will end up somewhere between the two extremes of opinion--though it is pretty funny to me that there is such variance of opinion on these seats in online reviews, and nobody actually seems to know how, if at all, the Brightline seats are different.

I agree with those who have said that the recline (and real or perceived lack thereof) probably makes the largest difference, with the American public being used to the older-fashioned, generous recline in our aged rolling stock. Which is not to say it's bad--but I traveled thousands of kilometers through the UK and Europe on many different trains in August/early September of 2022, and I can't say that I remember any of the basic coach seats having a notable recline, or at least not anything similar to Superliner seats especially, or even Amfleet. (The antique short-backed seats in the heritage cars that NCDOT here in NC uses on the Piedmont--that do recline to an almost silly degree--are another matter entirely!)

 

[Trogdor]

Having had a couple of short rides on the Ventures, plus one trip to Milwaukee, here’s my take: there are two main problems. First is the narrowness of the seats to accommodate the wider aisle. Second, and more notably, the seat cushions are contoured in such a way that they stuck into my back uncomfortably. The older cars’ cushions are basically flat/straight across, whereas the Ventures have a contour on the back that results in the cushions pushing me in the back (as the contour is narrower than the width of my shoulders). In my mind, flatter cushions would resolve that, and probably don’t require any structural seat changes.

 

[jis]

Assuming there was no Cabbage-40 at one end, the cafe car was there as a WiFi base station.

From all the comments I have heard, those seats have got to go. I've heard they are inferior to Brightline's, and Amtrak had at least something to do with it since they were on the design advisory board.

Yes about the car structure. Not so much about furnishing and plumbing and such things, is what I have been told by someone in a senior position within Amtrak. OTOH it is likely that Amtrak if it wished could have pushed back and they did not. But Amtrak's design team that is working on the Airo and LD projects was not directly involved is my understanding.

 

[rs9]

If I can offer some thoughts on the seats: I haven't ridden the Venture cars on the Hiawatha, but I have ridden them on other Midwest routes.

I think there's a lot of rather large assumptions being bandied about that "because I don't like the seat, therefore others don't like it as well."

I understand some people find the seats to be uncomfortable. But embedded within these statements is the assumption that the old Amfleet/Horizon seats were comfortable to begin with.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Yes about the car structure. Not so much about furnishing and plumbing and such things, is what I have been told by someone in a senior position within Amtrak. OTOH it is likely that Amtrak if it wished could have pushed back and they did not. But Amtrak's design team that is working on the Airo and LD projects was not directly involved is my understanding.

Oh, that is very good to hear! I hope that does indeed turn out to be correct. If nothing else, the big to-do over how "bad" the Venture seats are will give/is giving Amtrak + suppliers a very obvious kick in the pants to do something different for the Airo/LD orders, which will be considerably larger than the Venture orders for Amtrak Midwest to date. The customer complaints are so glaringly obvious that I'd bet Amtrak's design team, if they receive pushback on slightly wider (if possible) or differently-cushioned seats, etc., can point directly to the complaints and issues to get their preferred seats.

 

[CHImdw1522]

I think that the seats are OK for the routes travelled.

What I do not like about the Midwest Venture cars is that at night the lights are so bright. If the lights on the ceiling can be dimmed, it has not been done on any trip I have taken.

 

[jis]

I think that the seats are OK for the routes travelled.

What I do not like about the Midwest Venture cars is that at night the lights are so bright. If the lights on the ceiling can be dimmed, it has not been done on any trip I have taken.

I don't know what can be done or not in the Midwest Ventures, but on the Brightline cars, the lights can be dimmed and in addition there is the ability to do mood lighting in different colors too.

 

[railiner]

At the end of the day, how much a seat will recline is primarily determined by what is the seat pitch, larger the pitch, more the recline possible. Reclining a seat by pushing the base forward instead of reclining the back into the lap of the passenger behind is not inherently inferior if done right. Afterall that is how the seats in the Amtrak Roomettes recline as do all the lie flat seats on airlines, in their reclined mode.

The problem for me, with the seat sliding forward, is that unless the pitch is very long, you cannot extend your legs under the seat in front of you, You are forced to have your knees bent. Maybe okay for a couple of hours, but would never do on an overnight train...