High Speed Rail $$

[Ryan]

Close, but the applications are going to (and the money is flowing through) the DoT, not Amtrak.

Outside that, you hit the nail on the head!

 

[haolerider]

Close, but the applications are going to (and the money is flowing through) the DoT, not Amtrak.
Outside that, you hit the nail on the head!

Thanks, but it my understanding that the applications were reviewed by Amtrak as well to allow for a ranking of priorities, but I did understand that the money flowed through DOT and not Amtrak.

 

[DaveKCMO]

1) there was no mechanism for high speed rail funding before the stimulus package. period.

2) there were far more applicants for many more dollars than anyone expected (and the FRA is not a large entity).

3) the stimulus act also required the FRA to create a plan so they weren't throwing money at bad projects.

4) with a "jobless recovery" on the horizon, spreading the stimulus out over several years was wise.

5) why does every conversation here turn into rehash of turboliners or the sunset limited?

 

[leemell]

GML misses the point of my comment, heading way offtopic to discuss whether Walmart is good or bad.
We're here asking where the stimulus money for HSR went. Well, this week we had all sorts of crowing about GDP numbers being positive but, as GML said, that was just papering over what's really happening.

The feds have thrown money all over the place, inflating the government spending component of GDP to make up for the others, which are still lackluster. Thus they were able to brag about it in the past week. Had the administration focused on infrastructure, HSR, and other promised projects, that government spending number would probably have been lower, and they wouldn't have been able to hold up an improving GDP. In the longrun we would have been better off, though, as government's deficit spending is an unsustainable foundation for GDP.

The point is, whether intentionally or not, by not prioritizing infrastructure this administration was able to claim a win. Whether it was planned that way is anyone's guess, but at the least it shouldn't be surprising that such efforts don't seem to be running full steam ahead when they would siphon resources away from good PR.

I think everyone is missing the point on the High Speed Rail money. The Stimulus money was intended to go to shovel ready projects and there have been plenty. There are no shovel ready HSR projects, since the states were not prepared to move forward and few of them had even thought of HSR. The states had to get their project plans together and submit them to Amtrak for consideration and ranking.

[snip]

California HSR is right now conducting local EIR hearings, the system EIR has been approved. DesertXpress is approved and has plans and funds to start construction next March.

 

[Rob_C]

OMG! What moron approved DesertXpress? That has got to be the worst money pit I've seen in a long time... *sigh*

 

[George Harris]

OMG! What moron approved DesertXpress? That has got to be the worst money pit I've seen in a long time... *sigh*

Harry Reid. Need I say more?

 

[DET63]

OMG! What moron approved DesertXpress? That has got to be the worst money pit I've seen in a long time... *sigh*

The DesertXpress is a unique project that is based on using proven, steel wheel on rail high speed train technology to connect Southern California and Las Vegas.
The Pressing Need

Today, over one-third of the 38 million annual Las Vegas visitors come from Southern California, and most of them drive to Las Vegas on Interstate 15. Further, as Las Vegas has grown into a very large metropolitan area, the demand for travel to Southern California from Las Vegas has continued to increase as well. As the only roadway directly linking Southern California to Las Vegas, I-15 has rapidly evolved into a time-consuming, stressful, and often congested and dangerous travel experience. With no public funds programmed, nor plans developed to widen this aging highway over the majority of its length, which in most places has only two through lanes in each direction, and with traffic forecasted to grow 60% in the corridor, the situation will only worsen.

A new transportation alternative will alleviate the congestion on I-15 facilitating both Las Vegas-bound and Southern California-bound travelers. Las Vegas has consistently been the fastest-growing large city in the country over the past decade. This growth has only strengthened the demand for travel from Nevada to Southern California. And in the wake of the current economic downturn, hotel occupancy in Las Vegas has remained strong at nearly 90%; and, traffic counts on the I-15 freeway at the CA-NV State Border have shown increases in 2009.

More

Gotta keep that traffic moving to Sin City!

 

[Rob_C]

One of the worst bottlenecks going to Vegas is Cajon Pass! Any rail solution that doesn't address that is doomed. Doomed I say! h34r:

 

[leemell]

OMG! What moron approved DesertXpress? That has got to be the worst money pit I've seen in a long time... *sigh*

Environmental Impact Statement The FRA is serving as the lead federal agency for the environmental review of the DesertXpress High-Speed Passenger Train project and has prepared the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS). The DesertXpress project is proposed by DesertXpress Enterprises, LLC to provide reliable and safe passenger rail transportation along an approximate 200-mile corridor between Southern California (Victorville) and Las Vegas, Nevada, as an alternative to automobile or air travel. The DEIS has been prepared in cooperation with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), Surface Transportation Board (STB), Federal Highway Administration (FHWA), and the National Park Service (NPS), with the added participation of the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) and the Nevada Department of Transportation (NDOT).

The DEIS was approved in September.

 

[leemell]

One of the worst bottlenecks going to Vegas is Cajon Pass! Any rail solution that doesn't address that is doomed. Doomed I say! h34r:

Why Victorville?

Of course it would be great if DesertXpress could be extended to downtown Los Angeles, Anaheim and Ontario, and someday it might. But for this initial project, it is critical for the station to serve the Southern California market and be financeable without public tax dollars.

Victorville makes a lot of sense because it is the first major population center northeast of the Cajon Pass through the San Bernardino mountain range separating the High Desert from the Los Angeles basin. Victorville is within only a 30- to 45-minute drive for roughly 5 million people who live in the Inland Empire, Antelope Valley, and the eastern portions of Los Angeles County, and only a one to two hour's drive for most of the rest of the Southland's 21 million residents—many of whom routinely drive at least an hour to and from work each weekday.

Victorville also is the choke point of I-15, where the roadway narrows from from four through lanes to three in each direction. With the station in Victorville, DesertXpress avoids the uncertainty of the challenging 200-mile drive across the Mojave Desert that could take anywhere from 4 hours to 10 hours – you never know, because of congestion and incidents or accidents.

That's why.

 

[AlanB]

If people have to drive to Victorville, though the worst traffic nightmare on the road between LA and Vegas, they are just going to keep going on I-15 in their cars. They aren't going to stop in Victorville to transfer to a train.

If the train doesn't at least reach San Bernardino, then it will fail IMHO.

 

[leemell]

"The leader of the effort to build the proposed DesertXpress high-speed train between Las Vegas and Southern California said his company has launched a worldwide search for vendors and suppliers so that construction on the $4 billion project could begin by the end of March, the Las Vegas Sun reports.

[snip]

Under the plan, 10-car trains with a capacity of 675 passengers would run both directions three times an hour at peak periods Fridays and Sundays and once an hour at off-peak times. The average fare would be $50 one way and the trip on the 150 mph train would take 84 minutes. "

Maybe, maybe not. I any event like all such projects, this is the first leg, it has to start some where.

 

[Donctor]

Maybe, maybe not. I any event like all such projects, this is the first leg, it has to start some where.

But if this project begins service in a manner that does not draw in many passengers, how would it accumulate support to be extended to Los Angeles?

 

[leemell]

Maybe, maybe not. I any event like all such projects, this is the first leg, it has to start some where.

But if this project begins service in a manner that does not draw in many passengers, how would it accumulate support to be extended to Los Angeles?

Would you build LA to Victorville first intead? I'll be really surprised if someone doesn't start a bus link to the Palmdale/Lancaster Metrolink train station. That of course, will let you access anything between there and San Diego by rail.

 

[Donctor]

Would you build LA to Victorville first intead? I'll be really surprised if someone doesn't start a bus link to the Palmdale/Lancaster Metrolink train station. That of course, will let you access anything between there and San Diego by rail.

Are you asking this question of me? I cannot tell which statement you're addressing.

 

[Rob_C]

Sorry, but if I have to take Metrolink to Lancaster (2hrs.), another hour on a bus to Victorville, and then more hours to Vegas on the DesertExpress... just not worth it for most travelers. They'll fly, they'll drive. But they won't do all those connections. The one stop train (I think it used to be called the Desert Wind?!) LAX-Vegas makes more sense than this "train to nowhere" venture.

This should be done in increments:

Restore the 79MPH service, then build the hi-speed line either along that ROW, or the proposed new one.

 

[birdy]

Its a trivial amount of money really, the cost of our wars until Thanksgiving, or, alternatively, the revenue raised by NOT cutting the estate tax any more than we already have. I think the program would be wildly popular once the ground was broken in a few places and people saw the concrete being poured.

My expectation is that the Republicans will Mao-Mao our president (if its technically possible for a bunch of white republicans to "Mao-Mao" a black guy) into not spending the $20 billion per year or so it would require to aggressively build out the systems.

We should do this even if it were boom times. Infrastructure spending is not exactly the same as stimulus. Infrastructure spending is only 2% of the federal budget, which is why we have bridges falling into the San Francisco Bay and the Mississippi.

It would be worthwhile though, if we really made a push to do this sooner, during slack times, so that we could throttle back a little during boom times. I'd like to see the entire siting process federalized and expedited. Have all the NIMBY and environmental fights--just have them faster. Make the best siting and environmental mitigation decisions we can and then build.

 

[leemell]

Its a trivial amount of money really, the cost of our wars until Thanksgiving, or, alternatively, the revenue raised by NOT cutting the estate tax any more than we already have. I think the program would be wildly popular once the ground was broken in a few places and people saw the concrete being poured.
My expectation is that the Republicans will Mao-Mao our president (if its technically possible for a bunch of white republicans to "Mao-Mao" a black guy) into not spending the $20 billion per year or so it would require to aggressively build out the systems.

We should do this even if it were boom times. Infrastructure spending is not exactly the same as stimulus. Infrastructure spending is only 2% of the federal budget, which is why we have bridges falling into the San Francisco Bay and the Mississippi.

It would be worthwhile though, if we really made a push to do this sooner, during slack times, so that we could throttle back a little during boom times. I'd like to see the entire siting process federalized and expedited. Have all the NIMBY and environmental fights--just have them faster. Make the best siting and environmental mitigation decisions we can and then build.

That would be great, in fact I wish, but, when the Talgo train was to start in 1999, it was abandoned BECAUSE of the cost to upgrade the track which is/was single track for much of the way. I don't see them spending that money now. The DesertXpress is totally different money. private.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The track upgrades were done. It was NIMBYs whining about how a Talgo train a few times a day over a heavily congested freight line would completely devastate a poor endangered turtle.

 

[volkris]

Its a trivial amount of money really, the cost of our wars until Thanksgiving, or, alternatively, the revenue raised by NOT cutting the estate tax any more than we already have. I think the program would be wildly popular once the ground was broken in a few places and people saw the concrete being poured.

Saying one expense is equal to a different, non-trivial expense doesn't exactly show the first expense to be trivial...

We should do this even if it were boom times. Infrastructure spending is not exactly the same as stimulus. Infrastructure spending is only 2% of the federal budget, which is why we have bridges falling into the San Francisco Bay and the Mississippi.
It would be worthwhile though, if we really made a push to do this sooner, during slack times, so that we could throttle back a little during boom times. I'd like to see the entire siting process federalized and expedited. Have all the NIMBY and environmental fights--just have them faster. Make the best siting and environmental mitigation decisions we can and then build.

That's the complete opposite of what needs to be done! Money should be siphoned out of the economy for such infrastructure work during the boom times when there's a little headroom. Once the economy is stumbling, the money needs to be returned to the private sector to hasten recovery and lay the foundation for the next upswing. Otherwise, the downswing is prolonged due to insufficient capitalization and political uncertainty.... precisely as we're seeing now.

Or, better yet, during the boom times money should be set aside in rainy day funds to provide funding to keep infrastructure development steady during the downtime without incurring additional debt. But a blitz of new projects based on costs incurred by the private sector (which is how this stuff always goes) is only a recipe for more suffering.

I do agree that downtimes are a great time to put aside some of the environmental hysteria to Get Things Done, but then the people most motivated to improve rail are often politically married to exactly the people who push for overbearing environmental protection... so that's not really going to go anywhere.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I really don't have a good reason to worry about the future beyond the next 60 years or so, other then my odd blend of romanticism of doing the right thing and unbridled cynicism that it will never be done, because I will never have children. But Volkris, given your attitude, I deeply sympathize for yours.

 

[George Harris]

I really don't have a good reason to worry about the future beyond the next 60 years or so, other then my odd blend of romanticism of doing the right thing and unbridled cynicism that it will never be done, because I will never have children.

Some of us are very concerned about your definition of "right thing." Your statement concernign children makes me think of a rather hilarious joke concerning those of your general political perspective, but I will forbear.

 

[birdy]

That's the complete opposite of what needs to be done! Money should be siphoned out of the economy for such infrastructure work during the boom times when there's a little headroom. Once the economy is stumbling, the money needs to be returned to the private sector to hasten recovery and lay the foundation for the next upswing. Otherwise, the downswing is prolonged due to insufficient capitalization and political uncertainty.... precisely as we're seeing now.

* * * * *

This is the time. There is lots of "headroom" as you say. Right now we have plenty of savings. The personal savings rate went from 0 to about 8% overnight and has stayed there. The same thing has happened all over the world. That means 4% money to build the things. Lower prices on land and steel. Not much demand for goods and services from the private sector. Also, remember, we don't have so much heavy construction capacity anymore. Bechtel can only do so much. All things being equal, you don't want to outbid worthy private projects for governmental projects.

These projects are so big you can't load all of the costs into the exact right time frame. But you can try.

Yes, the cost is, well, if not trivial, inconsequential. The wars are about 2% of GDP. An aggressive $20 billion per year build out would be only a quarter of one per cent of GDP