Honolulu Rail To Break Ground

[WhoozOn1st]

Time was this woulda been GG-1's turf (plantation?), but since he's moved to Lost Wages it appears I'm now closest to the Aloha State beat.

RaIl gets OK to break ground

"The record of decision states that the project, which would connect East Kapolei with Ala Moana Center, would save residents more than 20 million hours of travel time every year by 2030. The project also would be a boon for the local construction industry, which saw a 6 percent drop in jobs last year, city officials said.

"'What this project essentially means is one thing: jobs,' said acting mayor and city Managing Director Douglas Chin. 'Once it starts, this project will create thousands of jobs. It will fuel the city and state's economy.'

"The decision, signed by FTA [Federal Transit Administration] Regional Administrator Leslie Rogers, states that 'all reasonable steps are being taken to minimize the adverse environmental effects of the project, and where adverse environmental effects remain, no feasible and prudent alternative to such effects exists.'

"One remaining hurdle is a pending application for a Special Management Area permit, which the City Council will decide on next week. Other permits are required but need only administrative approval from the city Department of Planning and Permitting."

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Here's the project's website: Honolulu Rail Transit

Route Map PDF

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

There is both good and bad in this project.

Bad

• Over 20 years getting to this point
• The plan only serves a small part of the island of Oahu
• Construction starts at the remote end of the planed route

Good

• When finished will provide a alternate route into town
• Jobs in construction and operation
• Faster travel than the only freeway

Their are more but that is all I can think of at the moment.

 

[the_traveler]

You mean Amtrak is FINALLY going to serve Hawaii?

Is the connecting city LAX or PDX?

And will it be a 4 zone award from the correct coast?

If true, there may soon be a CTRW (Chez Traveler Real West)!

 

[former Coast Haole]

Aloha

There is both good and bad in this project.

Bad

• Over 20 years getting to this point
• The plan only serves a small part of the island of Oahu
• Construction starts at the remote end of the planed route

Good

• When finished will provide a alternate route into town
• Jobs in construction and operation
• Faster travel than the only freeway

Their are more but that is all I can think of at the moment.

More than 20 years getting to this point? No, more like 37 years! In 1973, George Villegas, the city's transportation director under then-Mayor Frank Fasi, proposed a 14-mile "fixed guideway" system (as it was called then) between Hawaii Kai and Maunaloa. (Traffic was horrendous even then in Honolulu as so much all of it goes along a narrow corridor east-west (or Diamond Head-Eva as they say in Hawaii) and the Kalanianioli Highway and the H-1 have long been perennially jammed. But the proposal got caught up in the long-running political battles between Fasi and other state Democratic leaders, and it's been kicked around for years. But never too late to save some part of Paradise!

 

[MikefromCrete]

Glad to see this is finally getting under way. I was in Honolulu 15-16 years ago and there was a lot of talk about the need for such a rail system them. It became quite a political football among the various state administrations, but it looks like it is finally a go. Once the first section is up and running, I'm sure other areas of Oahu will be wanting service too! The first line is always the hardest, but if it's successful, expansion will follow.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Time sure flies ... Fasi originally proposed HART, Honolulu Area Rapid Transit, sort of a fixed guide-way bus system. He fought for a transit system very hard. And politics have driven up the price. The Island of Oahu layout is perfect for rapid transit.

What bother's me about the start in Kapolei is untill almost it is amost finished there will be few riders untill it reaches the airport witch is almost 3/4 built. If construction begins at Ala Moana Center out then people can use the system sooner. Also by not including the University of Hawaii a little Koko Head (east) of Ala Moana (major shopping center) another significant source of ridership is lost. Then Hawaii Kai is not included and it is probally the largest residential area on the Island. Also because of the openness of the Island I believe a Monorail structure would be better as it is smaller than the structure for light rail. Lastly the public has not had any vote on the type of system, however by a fair margin they voted to finance a system

 

[AlanB]

Lastly the public has not had any vote on the type of system, however by a fair margin they voted to finance a system

I fail to understand why this is a problem. The public shouldn't get to vote on it. The public doesn't get to vote on whether to install a 20 inch water main vs. a 26" water main. The public doesn't get to vote on most things and they shouldn't get to vote on things. That's becoming one of California's biggest problems is that they vote on everything. The entire point of our government is that you vote for someone to represent your interests. If they don't do a good job in your opinion, you vote them out in the next election.

But voting on everything only wastes time & money and usually ends up making things worse, rather than better. And in this case when more than 3/4ths of the residents in the US don't understand the difference between light rail and high speed rail, taking a vote on the type of rail to install is useless. Most people won't know what they're voting for or how it may or may not work in this case.

 

[GG-1]

Lastly the public has not had any vote on the type of system, however by a fair margin they voted to finance a system

I fail to understand why this is a problem. The public shouldn't get to vote on it. The public doesn't get to vote on whether to install a 20 inch water main vs. a 26" water main. The public doesn't get to vote on most things and they shouldn't get to vote on things. That's becoming one of California's biggest problems is that they vote on everything. The entire point of our government is that you vote for someone to represent your interests. If they don't do a good job in your opinion, you vote them out in the next election.

Aloha

Actually I wish in Honolulu's situation you were correct. Unfortunately Only 1 elected person there seems to understand they represent the people. Most of them in the last 40 years use there office for personal gain. And for what ever reason they seem to have a better chance of being elected. Granted I may be jaded having worked with many of them. I hope the current Mayor, whom, in my opinion is the best elected person, ever to get elected. I have held this opinion since he first ran for city council.

 

[DET63]

It was my understanding after the vote to begin work on construction that opponents felt very confident they could still derail (pardon the pun) the plan. In fact, opposition still seems to be active. Is there any chance they will be able to stop it, or is this so much bluster?

 

[AlanB]

There is always a chance that they can stop it, but with each passing day it does get harder to stop it.

 

[former Coast Haole]

There is always a chance that they can stop it, but with each passing day it does get harder to stop it.

Good grief, if there was ever a locale perfect for commuter rail transit, Honolulu would be it. Essentially a linear city where many folks won't even need connecting bus or kiss-and-ride/park-and-ride to use it! The opponents in Hawaii have been hauling out the same old tired ideological arguments for more than three decades!

Time to accede to reality!

 

[AlanB]

There is always a chance that they can stop it, but with each passing day it does get harder to stop it.

Good grief, if there was ever a locale perfect for commuter rail transit, Honolulu would be it. Essentially a linear city where many folks won't even need connecting bus or kiss-and-ride/park-and-ride to use it! The opponents in Hawaii have been hauling out the same old tired ideological arguments for more than three decades!

Time to accede to reality!

I'm not advocating stopping it, just answering the question asked in the post above.

It would be incredibly stupid to stop the line, despite the objections of many of the uninformed who oppose it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I repeat: When the train turns a wheel in revenue service, I believe it will happen. Until then I remain skeptical. Al Cafiero went to his death bed having just heard the Hudson-Bergen light rail would be extended to Tenafly. That project has been canned. Glassboro started to refurbish their train station in preparation for the already funded DRPA extension of the RiverLINE to Glassboro. That project is on indefinite hold. The Second Avenue Subway has had ground broken on it 3 or 4 times. Its currently under construction but facing cost overruns and the very real possibility it will be scrapped.

All of these projects were sworn to be done extensions of already successful rail operations. This Honolulu rail project is a brand new rail project on a tiny island that has never seen passenger rail in operation at any time in its existence, even when the whole country otherwise was crisscrossed by the stuff. To suggest that it will surely be built is Quixotism defined.

 

[sechs]

This Honolulu rail project is a brand new rail project on a tiny island that has never seen passenger rail in operation at any time in its existence, even when the whole country otherwise was crisscrossed by the stuff.

So much ignorance.
I would suggest that you stop speaking from alternative orifices if you'd like to make believable points:

http://www.american-rails.com/hawaiian-railroads.html

 

[George Harris]

GG-1: A monorail system would be just as wide in the air as the rail system that is being built. Never forget the basic vehicle is based on the size of people. Thus, you will normally end up with a vehicle that is at least 8.5 to 9 feet wide and about 7 feet high inside the passenger compartment. If you add the walkways required by current safety standards, the width of the structure is about the same regardless of whether the vehicle is rubber tired, on rails, monorail, or maglev. The monorails in existence, such as Seattle and Disney do not meet the current safety standards. Don't know anything about what has been built recently in Lost Wages, and had no desire to be anywhere near it either professionally or as a passenger.

Monorail remains a solution looking for a problem that needs solving.

Imagine the nightmare that is a turnout in either monorail or maglev.

What is being built right now in Honolulu is the first phase.

In my time there a couple years ago, I was astounded by how much of downtown Honolulu was given over to parking garages.

 

[henryj]

I am glad to hear it is finally going to happen. But should the justification for it be jobs? Couldn't it have something to do with mobility maybe?

 

[AlanB]

I am glad to hear it is finally going to happen. But should the justification for it be jobs? Couldn't it have something to do with mobility maybe?

Henry,

I agree, the justification shouldn't have to be jobs. But alas, far too often people don't see the real justification as reason enough or even a good reason. Hence Ike's little white lie that the Interstate Highway System (IHS) were for the military. Few people today would argue against the IHS as having been a bad idea. But back then many were very opposed to the idea and especially government's involvement in building the IHS.

In Honolulu's case, far too many drivers can't see how the train would benefit them and they also don't realize that the roads are subsidized. So all they see is their money going to give someone else a free ride. They don't realize that they too are getting a free ride. They don't realize that every rider on the train potentially represents someone not in front of them on the highway.

So with high unemployment a major topic of concern these days, it's all about jobs.

It's sad, but it's not always easy to get people to do that which is best for them.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

So much ignorance.

I would suggest that you stop speaking from alternative orifices if you'd like to make believable points:

http://www.american-rails.com/hawaiian-railroads.html

I stand corrected in fact, but not in general concept.

Monorail remains a solution looking for a problem that needs solving.

Quote for truth. What monorail does have, though, is the "COOL!" factor, which can and does result in construction where regular light rail or rapid transit wouldn't get the go ahead. So it solves the problem of idiots not knowing enough about rail not wanting rail.

 

[sechs]

So much ignorance.

I would suggest that you stop speaking from alternative orifices if you'd like to make believable points:

http://www.american-rails.com/hawaiian-railroads.html

I stand corrected in fact, but not in general concept.

?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

So much ignorance.

I would suggest that you stop speaking from alternative orifices if you'd like to make believable points:

http://www.american-rails.com/hawaiian-railroads.html

I stand corrected in fact, but not in general concept.

?

I'm not going to even bother to explain to you such an elementary statement.

 

[sechs]

I'm not going to even bother to explain to you such an elementary statement.

Is that a personal attack or just some kind of weak appeal to ridicule or authority?
If it's so elementary, then it should hardly be a bother to explain.

 

[MikefromCrete]

So much ignorance.

I would suggest that you stop speaking from alternative orifices if you'd like to make believable points:

http://www.american-rails.com/hawaiian-railroads.html

I stand corrected in fact, but not in general concept.

?

I'm not going to even bother to explain to you such an elementary statement.

Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story.

 

[GG-1]

GG-1: A monorail system would be just as wide in the air as the rail system that is being built. Never forget the basic vehicle is based on the size of people. Thus, you will normally end up with a vehicle that is at least 8.5 to 9 feet wide and about 7 feet high inside the passenger compartment. If you add the walkways required by current safety standards, the width of the structure is about the same regardless of whether the vehicle is rubber tired, on rails, monorail, or maglev. The monorails in existence, such as Seattle and Disney do not meet the current safety standards. Don't know anything about what has been built recently in Lost Wages, and had no desire to be anywhere near it either professionally or as a passenger.

Monorail remains a solution looking for a problem that needs solving.

Imagine the nightmare that is a turnout in either monorail or maglev.

What is being built right now in Honolulu is the first phase.

In my time there a couple years ago, I was astounded by how much of downtown Honolulu was given over to parking garages.

Aloha George

I have tremendous respect for you and your knowledge and experience in real railroads. This Picture

And also this picture

Show how little the structure is for monorails, and their impact on the ground below them, including the required safety walkways. The Las Vegas system probably would better serve residents if it had been built from the Airport, then down the center of the strip to the down town bus terminal station. rather than its current route along the industrial side of the east side casinos.

My concern about the choice of the segment and building direction, as currently planed, will cause it to have no use, until the completion of the current segment until. if I remember correctly, is 2020. By that time the public will become disillusioned and never support any expansion to the eastward side of Ala Moana, Which is potentially the busiest area of service..

I think I have, somewhere, a picture of a switch, which isn't all that complicated on the beam type monorail.

Mahalo for your thoughts about the size related/required for the vehicles.

Eric

 

[George Harris]

Thanks for the pictures. Explains one thing that happened early on: There was some part that fell off one of the cars in testing and landed in the street or on someone's car, don't remember which.

I would love to see the correnspondence between the agency there and the FRA, NFPA, and others relating to safety, evacuation, etc. Might find some stuff worth using elsewhere.