How close can two Amtrak stations be to each other?

[wayman]

Philadelphia (pop. 1.5 million) to Ardmore (pop. 12,600) is about 9 miles. But that's really an unfair definition of "Ardmore", since it serves as a central station for the entire near Main Line suburbs, which probably have a population of closer to 100,000 combined (Narberth, Merion, Haverford, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, Rosemont, Villanova, Cynwyd; it's even more convenient to parts of Philadelphia, like Manayunk, than 30th St is; once you get out as far as Wayne, I'd say driving/R5ing to Paoli makes more sense). But suburban corridor stations (I'm also including MKE-MKA, ALX-WAS-BWI, BOS-BBY, and all the stations around Oakland, etc in this category) are a vastly different situation than stations along a long-distance route, and aren't fair for comparison, especially when they're urban/suburban stations.

Mount Joy (pop. 6,700) to Elizabethtown (pop. 11,800) is about 6.5 miles, but it's still a corridor service, and the state would have been much less inclined to fund the Keystone if small towns didn't get service, so this still doesn't count in my book as equivalent to, say, Reno and Sparks.

Any two long-distance stops closer than 30 miles to each other on the same line would stand out as highly unusual in my book; even within 50 miles is notable. If they're on different lines, they could be closer. And there, arguably CVS is the winner for closest stops on different lines, with stops on two different lines about 100 feet apart (The Crescent and Cardinal travel upon different host railroads and stop on opposite sides of the same station building. But again, that's a wacky circumstance.)

 

[jis]

Newark Penn Station (NWK) and Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR) are 3 miles apart and many Regionals stop at both.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Here is another pair: Columbia and Camden, SC.
Distance: 33 miles.

Population: 728,063 (metro) and 6,682.

The Camden station is a whistle stop, or whatever is the correct term, but still it has twice-daily service. Maybe I should say "twice-nightly" since both stops are in the wee hours.

I think you are looking for the term "flag stop". But actually, as I read the current timetable, Camden is a regular stop.

 

[railiner]

Winter Park - Fraser, and Granby, Co. come to mind....only 13 miles apart, and both with tiny populations but important stops for skiers, vacationers, etc. in season.

 

[Guest]

Cary and Raleigh, NC are 9 miles

 

[jis]

A bit off-topic, but isn't there a small town in Scotland that's served by two train stations? The stations are on two lines, which connect a few miles out of town. I believe one of the stations is a lot higher in elevation than the other. I believe the village is called Tyndrum.

There are several such. Helensburgh Central (which is a terminus for the Glasgow suburban service) and Helensburgh Upper (which is on the Fort William Scottish Highlands Line) comes to mind as an example. Beautiful country.

 

[Ryan]

A bit off-topic, but isn't there a small town in Scotland that's served by two train stations? The stations are on two lines, which connect a few miles out of town. I believe one of the stations is a lot higher in elevation than the other. I believe the village is called Tyndrum.

There are several such. Helensburgh Central (which is a terminus for the Glasgow suburban service) and Helensburgh Upper (which is on the Fort William Scottish Highlands Line) comes to mind as an example. Beautiful country.

That it is - Helensbugh is located near the Royal Navy base at Faslane, which my ship pulled into in 2003 - had a great time taking the commuter trains into Glasgow (and one day we ventured over to Edinburgh). I'd love to make it back some day with a little more time to explore.

 

[Rumpled]

The PacSurf has probably 7 between san Clemente and Anaheim - about 40-45 miles probably.

Anaheim is at MP 135; San Clemente Pier at MP 169: 34 miles.

According to this 2006 timetable, Santa Ana (MP 139), Irvine (MP 149) and San Juan Capistrano (MP 161) are between Anaheim and San Clemente Pier.

(The mileages are computed from Santa Barbara, not Los Angeles.)

You're gonna make me look up a current timetable; aren't you?

Since '06 Amtrak has added Laguna Niguel/Mission Viejo; and Orange as occasional stops.

(I've also been on trains when Metrolink has broken down that we've stopped at the San Clemente Metrolink and Tustin.)

7 in 34 miles. So I had the right number of stations but too many miles.

 

[Montanan]

I'm sure there's not an absolute rule, because there are so many variables -- not just population, but things like nearby attractions, train frequency, and available infrastructure at a proposed site.

I think generally you'll find that stops are much closer together on short-haul routes than for long-distance trains. Out in this part of the world, gaps of 50 miles or more between station stops are the norm rather than the exception.

I can think of one immediately: Reno, NV and Sparks, NV (although Sparks was discontinued recently for the very reason you mention--it was too close to Reno).
Rafi

Sparks was originally a crew change point and the stop lasted ever since '71.

I think the primary reason the Sparks stop was discontinued was the fact that it was basically located in the middle of a large, active rail yard.

 

[user 1215]

Orlando and Winter Park, FL are about 5 miles apart.

And it takes 17 minutes. LOL. Even ORL to KIS is only 21 minutes...

Winter Park - Fraser, and Granby, Co. come to mind....only 13 miles apart, and both with tiny populations but important stops for skiers, vacationers, etc. in season.

Interesting situation there... Wonder if Amtrak would be amenable to stop at Winter Park (right outside of Moffat Tunnel) where the Ski Train used to stop before it's demise. I'm sure the Skiiers would LOVE that.

 

[the_traveler]

I can think of one immediately: Reno, NV and Sparks, NV (although Sparks was discontinued recently for the very reason you mention--it was too close to Reno).
Rafi

Sparks was originally a crew change point and the stop lasted ever since '71.

I think the primary reason the Sparks stop was discontinued was the fact that it was basically located in the middle of a large, active rail yard.

Sparks was the crew change point, because the old route had the CZ going thru Reno on surface level. Thus during the stop, the CZ blocked the grade crossings. When the Reno Trench was completed, the CZ could stop below street level. Thus it could stop for longer, and the crew change point was changed from Sparks to Reno.

I had only seen 1 or 2 ever get off in Sparks.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I can think of one immediately: Reno, NV and Sparks, NV (although Sparks was discontinued recently for the very reason you mention--it was too close to Reno).
Rafi

Sparks was originally a crew change point and the stop lasted ever since '71.

I think the primary reason the Sparks stop was discontinued was the fact that it was basically located in the middle of a large, active rail yard.

Sparks was the crew change point, because the old route had the CZ going thru Reno on surface level. Thus during the stop, the CZ blocked the grade crossings. When the Reno Trench was completed, the CZ could stop below street level. Thus it could stop for longer, and the crew change point was changed from Sparks to Reno.

I had only seen 1 or 2 ever get off in Sparks.

Thats interesting! When i worked in WAS (back in ancient times!) we scheduled a meeting in Sparks because it wouldnt look right for A Govt. meeting to be held in a Sin City like Reno! Unfortunately we all had to fly, I tried to get my Division to OK train travel but was told that it takes too long and that this was the 1980s, not 1940!! Five years later the meeting was held in Vegas!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Shanghai]

New York Penn & Newark, NJ are 10 miles apart.

 

[delvyrails]

I read Greg's thread with great interest regarding train service to small towns.
I live in a relatively small town of about 15,000 right on the CSX Mainline about 20 miles from Savannah. I'm sure that it's close enough to Savannah that Amtrak would never want to stop twice so close together, but how close are other Amtrak stations out there? Is there precedent to have service for a town 15,000 strong within 30 minutes of a town of 150,000?

Amtrak's rail network is 21,000 miles long, and there are about 400 rail stations. So the average spacing is something like 50 miles. If you compare some of the pre-Amtrak train schedules for the trains that Amtrak took over, you find that many stations in small places were discontinued in the take-over.

That seems to reflect the trend in commuter rail operations, where most operators have discontinued numerous intermediate stops over the years. It's often a case of economics: does the cost of retaining the station and stopping the trains greatly exceed the revenue that is derived from those stations and would not shift to a nearby station?

 

[AlanB]

I can think of one immediately: Reno, NV and Sparks, NV (although Sparks was discontinued recently for the very reason you mention--it was too close to Reno).
Rafi

Sparks was originally a crew change point and the stop lasted ever since '71.

I think the primary reason the Sparks stop was discontinued was the fact that it was basically located in the middle of a large, active rail yard.

Sparks was the crew change point, because the old route had the CZ going thru Reno on surface level. Thus during the stop, the CZ blocked the grade crossings. When the Reno Trench was completed, the CZ could stop below street level. Thus it could stop for longer, and the crew change point was changed from Sparks to Reno.

I had only seen 1 or 2 ever get off in Sparks.

In 2008, the last full year of service to the stop, they saw an average of 5.7 passengers either boarding or alighting each day. That works out to about 2 per train.

 

[the_traveler]

5.7 passengers

I'd hate to meet that .7 passenger! Did they lose an arm or a leg in the casinos? :huh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jis]

That it is - Helensbugh is located near the Royal Navy base at Faslane, which my ship pulled into in 2003 - had a great time taking the commuter trains into Glasgow (and one day we ventured over to Edinburgh). I'd love to make it back some day with a little more time to explore.

Turns out my nephew lives in Edinburgh so I make it out there from time to time over long weekends, since there are twice daily non-stop flights from Newark to Edinburgh. I plan to be there again over the Memorial Day weekend. BTW Edinburgh - Glasgow is getting a new through electric service, and this service will run Edinburgh Waverley to Helensburgh Central via Glasgow Queens Street Lower. Initially will run every half hour, eventually possibly going to 15 mins headway.

 

[Big Iron]

A bit off-topic, but isn't there a small town in Scotland that's served by two train stations? The stations are on two lines, which connect a few miles out of town. I believe one of the stations is a lot higher in elevation than the other. I believe the village is called Tyndrum.

There are several such. Helensburgh Central (which is a terminus for the Glasgow suburban service) and Helensburgh Upper (which is on the Fort William Scottish Highlands Line) comes to mind as an example. Beautiful country.

That it is - Helensbugh is located near the Royal Navy base at Faslane, which my ship pulled into in 2003 - had a great time taking the commuter trains into Glasgow (and one day we ventured over to Edinburgh). I'd love to make it back some day with a little more time to explore.

U.S. Navy ship? A college buddy of mine works for the State Dept. and was detached to the Royal Navy for 5 years. He lived outside of London. Very nice gig. He and his wife had a blast and we had a blast visitng them.

 

[wayman]

That seems to reflect the trend in commuter rail operations, where most operators have discontinued numerous intermediate stops over the years. It's often a case of economics: does the cost of retaining the station and stopping the trains greatly exceed the revenue that is derived from those stations and would not shift to a nearby station?

Don't forget to factor in property value differential for proximity to transit, which translates into greater property tax revenue for the municipality than it would otherwise get from that property. Or for businesses and restaurants, proximity to transit increases traffic past, and into, their shops, which drives sales, which again increases local tax revenues; the transit stop attracts businesses to locate near it which would otherwise locate in some other municipality where there was a stop. The revenue derived from farebox collection from riders patronizing the station isn't the only factor on that side of the equation. It might not even be the largest factor on that side of the equation.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The railroads were built so long ago, and who knew then which towns would become larger cities and all the demographic and inrfrastructure needs .There was seemingly little or no city planning such as we know today. Same for building railroads, they did not have a lot to go on.

As another poster has noted, in the pre Amtrak days there were more trains on most routes than today. And of those more trains many of them varied greatly as to how often they stopped. Some trains carried a lot of mail and thus made many stops, some were very much "locals", which meant not that they went short distances but meant they stopped very frequently.

Some trains took literally hours longer to make their trip than others. Many more small town stations were in use back then, including those that were close to larger cities.

Seems to me that several of the examples provided in earlier posts involving small towns near large cities, that they were suburban stops.

A good example of small towns needing service because of special reasons would be the coastal to near coastal beach resort stops on the old Florida East Coast line. I have in front of me a March 1955 Southern RR timetable which shows a fine fast streamliner known as the New Royal Palm. It shows only four stops between Cincinnai and Jacksonville. Yet it shows about 18 stops between Jacksonville and Miami.If there was ever a better illustration for a train stopping for tourist reasons which way out pace the steady year around population, this was it. Keep in mind this was no toonerville trolley stopping to say "hello" to every chicken. This was a swank stainless steel streamliner. But it's got to get those beach going bucks.

Oh yes, it was not just the New Royal Palm, it was ALL the through trains from New York, Chicago, and other places which made so many nearby stops.

 

[GregL]

Burlington, Iowa and Fort Madison, Iowa about 20 miles apart on different lines. Burington is on the CZ and Ft. Madison is on the SWC. One can entrain in one town and go to the other via Galesburg, Il. About 120 miles and at least 6 hours by Amtrak. Not very practical!

 

[railiner]

Orlando and Winter Park, FL are about 5 miles apart.

And it takes 17 minutes. LOL. Even ORL to KIS is only 21 minutes...

Winter Park - Fraser, and Granby, Co. come to mind....only 13 miles apart, and both with tiny populations but important stops for skiers, vacationers, etc. in season.

Interesting situation there... Wonder if Amtrak would be amenable to stop at Winter Park (right outside of Moffat Tunnel) where the Ski Train used to stop before it's demise. I'm sure the Skiiers would LOVE that.

The reason that the old D&RGW refused to let Amtrak stop at the actual Winter Park, Co. stop was more complicated than just not wanting competition for its own Ski Train.

The Ski Train passengers were primarly day-trippers from Denver, that unloaded their own skis from each car. The train made a quick stop, then went on to wye and layover at Tabernash for the return trip.

The CZ, carried primarily vacationers from the midwest that were going to spend about a week at the resort. Besides their ski equipment, they carried plenty of baggage that had to be unloaded from the baggage car. This necessitated a much longer station stop that could interfere with freight traffic. So Amtrak was forced to build their own station at the more distant Fraser location.

Perhaps it could be re-examined today?

 

[DET63]

5.7 passengers

I'd hate to meet that .7 passenger! Did they lose an arm or a leg in the casinos? :huh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

3 passengers get off, 2.7 get back on. Yep, those casinos can be tough places . . .

 

[GregL]

5.7 passengers

I'd hate to meet that .7 passenger! Did they lose an arm or a leg in the casinos? :huh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

3 passengers get off, 2.7 get back on. Yep, those casinos can be tough places . . .

Maybe they lost their A$$!! :lol: :lol:

 

[jmbgeg]

I can think of one immediately: Reno, NV and Sparks, NV (although Sparks was discontinued recently for the very reason you mention--it was too close to Reno).
Rafi

Too bad they discontinued Sparks. A lot of people visit the Nugget there.