How Covid safe are Amtrak sleepers?

[tgstubbs1]

What is the circulation pattern in sleeper cars? Where are the return ducts, etc?

 

[Barb Stout]

I like the video but I can't help but wonder how an Acela HVAC compares to Superliner cars from the 1970's?

Yes, I was wondering about that also.

 

[MARC Rider]

A lot of what's being discussed is hypothetical. Just because a virus can travel a long distance in an aerosol doesn't mean you can get enough virus to make you sick. Same with fomites. (The viruses that stick to surfaces that you can pick up.) This is why reliable contact tracing is so important. It allows the researchers to figure out the most likely way the virus spreads. From what I've read, the real dangerous mode of transmission comes from the droplets. In other words, they transmit the virus and in sufficient load to get you sick. Thus, it appears that most of these big outbreaks care coming from people who don't social distance at 2 meters (6 feet) and don't wear masks. (While the masks don;t stop all viruses, they seem to stop enough to keep you from getting sick.) Also, there's variation in how well an individual's immune system deals with whatever virus comes its way. So it's definitely wise to be cautious, but it's also important to understand that there are limits to the risk. People don't emanate "COVID rays" in a sphere 6 (or 12) feet around their bodies, and if you intersect that sphere, you'll get sick and die, the real process is a lot more complicated, and scientists don't yet know the details.

This explains why you don't hear about big outbreaks from people who shop indoors in supermarkets, WalMarts, etc. I'm also not hearing about outbreaks from indoor restaurants at 50% of capacity or religious services at 50% of capacity (which is what our local Health Dept. allows.) Of course, this is Maryland, where the test positivity rate is about 2-3%, and the new cases are at about 9 per 100,000. There might be higher risks in the real hotspots, but, of course, lower risks in places in New York and New England that have fewer cases than we do.

I've taken two Amtrak trips on the NEC in really old Amfleet 1 cars, so who knows what the HVAC is like. With the cars half-full, I really didn't feel unsafe. I only get antsy if someone is right in my face, and that just hasn't happened to me anywhere since this whole business started. On the other hand, none of my trips was longer than 3 hours, so it's hard to compare the risk with that of being on a long train ride of 12 or more hours. I would think that sleepers, even if not hermetically sealed, would be safer than coach, but if you're masked and you can keep away from other people, you should be OK.

 

[Skyline]

As we learn more each week, each month, about Covid-19: Are we still comfortable holding to the 6-ft. spacing criteria? It seems we now have adequate evidence that 6 feet are not enough. It's better than 2 feet, but 10 to 20 feet would be a lot better. So, is the 6 feet merely outdated, or was it a political compromise from the start?

 

[Manny T]

On the other hand, none of my trips was longer than 3 hours, so it's hard to compare the risk with that of being on a long train ride of 12 or more hours.

Agreed. Not sure data from supermarkets or restaurants can inform the discussion of "How covid safe are Amtrak sleepers."

A trip to the supermarket or an hour in a restaurant don't seem comparable to 12+ hours in a sleeper, let alone 2-3 days, in close proximity to the others on board and sharing the space.

 

[Qapla]

We live in one of the "hot spots". Florida was, at one point, the fastest spreading state and our county had one of the highest rates of infection (it should be noted, for this discussion, Amtrak does not serve this community) In contact tracing for the spread of C-19 they did not find that those being infected were only, mostly or even commonly among those who had been in contact with an infected person for an extended period of time. The majority of those infected seemed to get the virus "in passing". Most were traced to settings where no (or very little) precautions were in place. No masks, no distancing, often indoors but even groups that were outside. A person does not need extended time of exposure to be infected - they need exposure to a large enough "viral load" to get infected - this can be done by walking past someone who has C-19 (even if they are asymptomatic and don't know they have it) who coughs or sneezes as you pass the or talks to you while close enough for their "droplets" (these cannot always be seen or felt) to land on your face or hands.

So, it doesn't matter if you are somewhere for 15 hours, 15 minutes or 15 seconds - it is not the length of time you are there - it is the level of exposure you are exposed to. If everyone on the train is following protocol and wearing their masks the exposure should be the same for a 10 minute ride as for a 3 day ride. There is far more danger of getting infected by someone who does not properly wear their mask (should cover nose and mouth) as you walk past them to get to your seat or room than there is of getting it from the time spent sitting on old, shabby fabric.

 

[Manny T]

It cannot be the case that being in the presence of someone with the virus (asymptomatic or not) for 15 minutes carries the same risk as being in the presence of that same person for 12-72 hours.

I presume no one sleeps in a mask.

Hence if I am sleeping in my bunk in an Amtrak roomette, and in the roomette directly across from me (with the doors closed), someone (or two people) with the virus (asymptomatic) are sleeping, then given the short amount of space between us (6-8 feet?) and the amount of open space around and under the door frame, there would seem to be a risk for transmission that people ought to consider carefully.

 

[gwolfdog]

I think of this every day. We remodeled our kitchen about fifteen years ago, and I stupidly didn't think of installing a touchless faucet at the sink. Now, every time I have to wash my hands--which in preparing food is all the time--I end up first touching the faucet to turn it on, then washing my hands, then having to clean up the faucet so that the next person innocently drawing a glass of water doesn't get food poisoning!

Hmmm...maybe when my husband asks me what I want for Christmas, instead of saying "Nothing, honey," I'll ask him to install a touchless faucet for me!

"
"Nothing honey and touchless are not what guys want to hear"

 

[gwolfdog]

A lot of what's being discussed is hypothetical. Just because a virus can travel a long distance in an aerosol doesn't mean you can get enough virus to make you sick. Same with fomites. (The viruses that stick to surfaces that you can pick up.) This is why reliable contact tracing is so important. It allows the researchers to figure out the most likely way the virus spreads. From what I've read, the real dangerous mode of transmission comes from the droplets. In other words, they transmit the virus and in sufficient load to get you sick. Thus, it appears that most of these big outbreaks care coming from people who don't social distance at 2 meters (6 feet) and don't wear masks. (While the masks don;t stop all viruses, they seem to stop enough to keep you from getting sick.) Also, there's variation in how well an individual's immune system deals with whatever virus comes its way. So it's definitely wise to be cautious, but it's also important to understand that there are limits to the risk. People don't emanate "COVID rays" in a sphere 6 (or 12) feet around their bodies, and if you intersect that sphere, you'll get sick and die, the real process is a lot more complicated, and scientists don't yet know the details.

This explains why you don't hear about big outbreaks from people who shop indoors in supermarkets, WalMarts, etc. I'm also not hearing about outbreaks from indoor restaurants at 50% of capacity or religious services at 50% of capacity (which is what our local Health Dept. allows.) Of course, this is Maryland, where the test positivity rate is about 2-3%, and the new cases are at about 9 per 100,000. There might be higher risks in the real hotspots, but, of course, lower risks in places in New York and New England that have fewer cases than we do.

I've taken two Amtrak trips on the NEC in really old Amfleet 1 cars, so who knows what the HVAC is like. With the cars half-full, I really didn't feel unsafe. I only get antsy if someone is right in my face, and that just hasn't happened to me anywhere since this whole business started. On the other hand, none of my trips was longer than 3 hours, so it's hard to compare the risk with that of being on a long train ride of 12 or more hours. I would think that sleepers, even if not hermetically sealed, would be safer than coach, but if you're masked and you can keep away from other people, you should be OK.

It's nice to read a post that is not fear-mongering and offers some common sense. If you hang around slobs in bars, go to gyms with sweaty lunks coughing, are in a VA Nursing Home, or attend White House Parties you increase your risk exponentially. I'n not laughing at C-19 just trying to add some to the and insanity.

 

[PVD]

Because of some spikes in specific neighborhoods, NYC rolled out extra mobile sites. I drove past one today while exercising my car (changed battery yesterday) No waiting, no charge, outside in fresh air- stopped and got tested in a matter of minutes...Takes longer for them to fill out the application than to administer the test. Really not bad at all.

 

[gwolfdog]

Listened to Cuomo today. Cracking down on the Hot Spots Tuesday. More policing of Gathering, Places of Worship etc. Good Luck. Might be too late to put the finger in the dam, but he's NY Tough.

 

[MARC Rider]

Hence if I am sleeping in my bunk in an Amtrak roomette, and in the roomette directly across from me (with the doors closed), someone (or two people) with the virus (asymptomatic) are sleeping, then given the short amount of space between us (6-8 feet?) and the amount of open space around and under the door frame, there would seem to be a risk for transmission that people ought to consider carefully.

Oh yes, there's probably a risk, but I doubt there's enough data available to actually quantify that risk a priori. Now if there's good contact tracing of people who test positive, and you start seeing that there's a link to people who have taken long-distance rides on trains, then you can start to be concerned.

In some ways, I'm a little more concerned about people catching this by flying, as many of the airlines are now running the planes full, not keeping center seats empty, etc. (On the other hand, most domestic flights are less than 4 hours, and very few people are flying anywhere internationally for now.)

 

[PVD]

One of the hot spots is the next zip code over from me, It starts across the street, but I get his point about areas/census tracts rather than zips, the concentration of morons is the opposite side of the zip. You know it has to be getting bad for the Father Flanagan wannabee (There is no such thing as a bad boy) Mayor to actually propose doing something.

 

[Qapla]

It cannot be the case that being in the presence of someone with the virus (asymptomatic or not) for 15 minutes carries the same risk as being in the presence of that same person for 12-72 hours.

If you are in the presence of someone without a mask on (or not on properly) who is talking and/or coughing/sneezing, even for only a few minutes, you stand a a greater chance of getting the virus, than being in the same room with someone who is properly masked and social distanced that you have no interaction with, even for a prolonged period of time.

I presume no one sleeps in a mask.

If they are sleeping in coach, yes, they will be sleeping with their mask on.

If I am sleeping in my bunk in an Amtrak roomette, and in the roomette directly across from me (with the doors closed), someone (or two people) with the virus (asymptomatic) are sleeping, then given the short amount of space between us (6-8 feet?) and the amount of open space around and under the door frame, there would seem to be a risk for transmission that people ought to consider carefully.

Yes, it is a risk to consider - keeping in mind that "droplets" do not stand much of a chance getting past two closed doors that are, by default, socially distanced.

While I do not plan any train trips any time soon, I am probably taking just as much of a risk, if not more, every time I go into Lowe's and Home Depot (for my work) where many fail to wear their masks properly (if at all) and do not always give you your space.

I always wear my mask and keep clear of others to the extent I can.

 

[MilwaukeeRoadLover]

Amtrak's air filtration system.

jb

The Amtrak site says the air is recirculated. (Not as often as an airplane though.) We never smelled anything in the air.

 

[MilwaukeeRoadLover]

I would consider Amtrak western sleepers to be safe, assuming you do due-diligence and wipe everything down. I guess they do sprays but I don't know how thorough those are. And while wiping down surfaces before we sat down, it was obvious that there was a lot of dirt and grime. So I wasn't taking any chances.

I consider the most protection is due to the fact you are isolated from other passengers (except having to walk through 4 coaches and an observation car to get to dining. Yes, we could have had meals in the cabin but we balanced logistics against risk. (There were 4 of us across two roomettes.) Sometimes people forget to mask, although the conductor was always warning people of the consequences. I feel sorry for smokers.

Personally, I think Amtrak could have more hand sanitizers. The ones in the bathroom were always full and there was the one in the cafe car, but I would think more hand cleaners would be helpful.

When we can back from an EB trip, we were warned not to leave anything on the train since it was going in for "deep cleaning" and the train would be isolated for awhile. I'm not sure how often this is done...

 

[Manny T]

Interestingly even as we speak, the CDC has reversed itself on airborne transmission, "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention revised its guidance on the coronavirus Monday, acknowledging that it can sometimes spread through airborne particles that can “linger in the air for minutes to hours” and among people who are more than six feet apart." CDC revises coronavirus guidance to acknowledge that it spreads through airborne transmission

We're not talking droplets here, we're talking aerosols that linger in the air.

 

[Qapla]

From the CDC

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention revised its guidance on the coronavirus Monday, acknowledging that it can sometimes spread through airborne particles that can “linger in the air for minutes to hours” and among people who are more than six feet apart.

“These transmissions occurred within enclosed spaces that had inadequate ventilation,” the CDC’s new guidance says. “Sometimes the infected person was breathing heavily, for example while singing or exercising.”

The agency added that it is “much more common” for the virus to spread through close contact than through airborne transmission.

 

[tgstubbs1]

There was a health professional on TV last spring talking about how he got the virus on a plane despite taking precautions.
He thought he contracted the virus through his eyes.

I suppose it can be difficult to find the cause sometimes, they don't have devices that detect and monitor the virus in the manner a radiation badge does.

 

[MARC Rider]

Interestingly even as we speak, the CDC has reversed itself on airborne transmission, "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention revised its guidance on the coronavirus Monday, acknowledging that it can sometimes spread through airborne particles that can “linger in the air for minutes to hours” and among people who are more than six feet apart." CDC revises coronavirus guidance to acknowledge that it spreads through airborne transmission

We're not talking droplets here, we're talking aerosols that linger in the air.

Not really much change in information, it's just that CDC is finally making official what researchers have been saying for some time.

The CDC cited published reports that demonstrated “limited, uncommon circumstances” in which people with the virus infected others who were more than six feet away.
“In these instances, transmission occurred in poorly ventilated and enclosed spaces that often involved activities that caused heavier breathing, like singing or exercise,” the CDC said.
The agency added that it is “much more common” for the virus to spread through larger respiratory droplets that are produced when somebody coughs, sneezes, sings, talks, or breathes.

I wouldn't worry too much in an Amtrak sleeper unless someone was working out or singing loudly in the hall.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Does Amtrak plan to do any kind of screening or temperature checks?

I read that for some reason smokers are less likely to contract the virus, even though they might do poorly if they get sick.

Is it time to bring back outdoor smoking lounge cars?

 

[Qapla]

I feel sorry for smokers

I don't.

Is it time to bring back outdoor smoking lounge cars?

NO!

Many products have caused or led to or been suspected of causing illness and/or death. These products have been immediately pulled from store shelves and, in many cases, are banned or removed permanently. Tobacco, on the other hand, with study after study confirming it's dangers, continues to be produced and sold.

I applaud Amtrak for not allowing smoking on the train.

Regardless, smoking should not have any bearing on how Amtrak deals with COVID-19 or how safe we feel traveling on Amtrak during this pandemic.

 

[tgstubbs1]

As we learn more each week, each month, about Covid-19: Are we still comfortable holding to the 6-ft. spacing criteria? It seems we now have adequate evidence that 6 feet are not enough. It's better than 2 feet, but 10 to 20 feet would be a lot better. So, is the 6 feet merely outdated, or was it a political compromise from the start?

6 feet is the 'splatter distance ' but without a mask.
Aerosol virus can hang, float, and drift for a period of time. Distance should dilute it but that depends on the circumstances.

 

[Qapla]

Anyone that concerned about the aerosol aspect of C-19 should probably "stay-at-home" to avoid all situations where the virus could be floating, drifting and hanging around.

It can stay airborne in any public space, even in an outdoor setting.

Even extensive HEPA filtering cannot remove an airborne substance while it is on it's way TO the filter.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

As we learn more each week, each month, about Covid-19: Are we still comfortable holding to the 6-ft. spacing criteria? It seems we now have adequate evidence that 6 feet are not enough. It's better than 2 feet, but 10 to 20 feet would be a lot better. So, is the 6 feet merely outdated, or was it a political compromise from the start?

It is probably something like the 1/r2 rule. Risk drops as you get further apart, but it doesn't jump immediately from 0% to 100%.

If the authorities said that everyone has to say 100 feet apart, or even 20 feet, we would have all laughed and done nothing. The 6 foot rule, like many things in life, is a compromise; compliance-based compromise. What distance would the general populate feel is reasonable, and attempt to follow? The 6 foot rule might be something like 90% effective. Not as good at 99.9% (1 mile), but better than 50% (2 feet).