How many sleepers can a diner handle?

[GlobalistPotato]

Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages.

But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once Congress gives the money to Amtrak, of course).

As said in another recent thread, sleepers do make an individual profit, but the scales aren't large enough to cover all of the avoidable costs. So it's not like "We lose money with each sale, but we make up for it in volume." Variable costs are less than revenue. Fixed costs need to be... fixed...

However, one of the components to Amtrak's sleeper service is the diner. Of course we all know that diners have never been profitable by themselves, but they are there to attract passengers, who pay for such amenities. So it is a case of "We lose money with each sale, but we make up for it in volume." :giggle:

Question is, how many fully-loaded sleepers can a single dining car handle? I guess part of this can be judged by personal experience on Amtrak/other trains, but it's probably 4-5 sleepers:1 diner.

Of course, one might argue that the diner's capacity and output isn't determined solely by the number of seats, but also by the number of chefs. I would imagine that one chef per diner can't make as many meals as 2, 3, or even 4 chefs, like what was common in the old days. Blah blah blah preperation styles are different today so that affects meal output. So many silly factors. :lol:

And then again, it depends of we're talking about a single level Viewliner train or the bi-level Superliners.

So, the question is, if Amtrak is adding capacity to the LD trains in terms of sleepers and coaches, how many cars can they add before they have to add another diner or a CCC?

 

[had8ley]

Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages.

But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once Congress gives the money to Amtrak, of course).

As said in another recent thread, sleepers do make an individual profit, but the scales aren't large enough to cover all of the avoidable costs. So it's not like "We lose money with each sale, but we make up for it in volume." Variable costs are less than revenue. Fixed costs need to be... fixed...

However, one of the components to Amtrak's sleeper service is the diner. Of course we all know that diners have never been profitable by themselves, but they are there to attract passengers, who pay for such amenities. So it is a case of "We lose money with each sale, but we make up for it in volume." :giggle:

Question is, how many fully-loaded sleepers can a single dining car handle? I guess part of this can be judged by personal experience on Amtrak/other trains, but it's probably 4-5 sleepers:1 diner.

Of course, one might argue that the diner's capacity and output isn't determined solely by the number of seats, but also by the number of chefs. I would imagine that one chef per diner can't make as many meals as 2, 3, or even 4 chefs, like what was common in the old days. Blah blah blah preperation styles are different today so that affects meal output. So many silly factors. :lol:

And then again, it depends of we're talking about a single level Viewliner train or the bi-level Superliners.

So, the question is, if Amtrak is adding capacity to the LD trains in terms of sleepers and coaches, how many cars can they add before they have to add another diner or a CCC?

You ask a very loaded question...personally, I think if they went back to a prep cook and added another SA to the diner they could handle 4 sleepers AND the coach pax. Denying coach pax diner service is definitely a major faux pas because someone knows when groups travel and have the ability to call out an extra SA, Chef or Prep Cook.

Bear in mind everyone has to kick in to make it work and if just one person, e.g., the LSA just hands out checks and takes up a table to text his girl friend the whole service falls apart.

 

[Anderson]

I think I ran the math on seating capacity. Three seatings in a 40-seat diner is 120 customers; three seatings in a 48-seat diner is 144 customers. A current Viewliner has 12 roomettes and 3 bedrooms, or about 30 passengers tops under normal circumstances...and about 24 or so regularly, if I had to guess. Assuming that you want to allow coach access to the diner, you're probably looking at 4 sleepers as a good cap on a 48-seater (that would translate into 96-120 sleeper pax plus 24-48 coach pax). You could do five sleepers, but you'd have to make the diner sleeper exclusive.

Of course, this is moot if you can order the diner staff to offer dinner at some of the lounge tables...not ideal, but then again what is? At that point, I think your constraint is kitchen capacity.

Edit: As to the Superliner diner, you're looking at about 80 seats of availability. I'd say you could do four sleepers without trouble before you'd want to look at adding a CCC, maybe five if you could press the diner-style tables in the sightseer lounge into service.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Ideally, diners should not have to handle ANY sleepers. I mean, is it too much to ask that passengers be awake for meals?

 

[AlanB]

There are only 2 trains that still run with what could be considered a normal compliment of crew for the dining car and don't use SDS guidelines; the Empire Builder and the Auto Train. So let's look at those for our answers.

The EB still has two cooks downstairs, 3 SA's and 1 LSA. They can handle the load of 3 full sleepers, as well as 4 roomettes sold in the Trans/Dorm. By the time the LSA gets to the last sleeping car, dinner times are getting pretty thin for picking. You can almost guarantee that the middle time is long gone and sometimes even the early seating is sold out, leaving only the late seating available. That doesn't leave many seats for those in coach.

This is one reason that an earlier proposal for using the cars being rebuilt with Stimulus funds included putting a CCC on the Empire Builder, so as to give more people the opportunity to get a full meal. It also solved three other problems. 1) the long walk from the Portland sleeper to the dining car; 2) it would provide fully cooked meals to the Portland section between Portland & Spokane; 3) it would allow the sightseer lounge & cafe to go to Seattle so that section would gain a cafe car. Right now it only has a dining car.

Now looking at the Auto Train, they have 1 dining car to serve as many as 6 sleepers; but no rooms in the dorm are ever sold. They provide 1 or 2 other diners for the coach section. They manage to handle that load thanks to two things. 1) They have fewer choices on the menu; 2) They use half of the upper level of the lounge car for overflow seating from the dining car. The crew carries the meals through the dining car and into the lounge car. It should also be noted that two of the sleeping cars are Deluxe Sleepers, which reduces the normal capacity by 10 passengers. Of course they also add additional staff to the dining car, a 3rd cook and at least 2 more SA's to wait on the tables in the lounge car. It also helps that the LSA doesn't have to take any money, as everything is included. That allows the LSA to pitch in on drinks and even sometimes carrying food.

So based upon those two examples, I have to conclude that 3 Superliner sleepers is really the max that a Superliner diner can handle if you still want coach passengers to have a chance at getting into the diner. If you take coach out of the picture, then you could manage 4 sleepers.

Now if we go look at the single level side, both the Meteor and the LSL run with 3 sleepers. And both with SDS cannot handle more. Beef up the staff back to pre-SDS levels and you might be able to get capacity up enough to handle 4 sleepers. But you're not going to push it beyond that, unless you have overflow seating in a cafe car or you totally eliminate coach passengers in the diner. And latter choice would still be pushing things considerably.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Yes, I would assume that until a LD gets up to a critical mass, the diner would be shared by both coach and sleeper passengers. If LD trains got up to 5+ sleepers and 5+ coaches, then I could see two separate diners being used for coach and sleeper passengers like what is done on the Autotrain.

Would it be accurate to say that it's cheaper to go back to pre-SDS levels and use more chefs instead of one chef per diner?

Also, I get the impression that the main constraint for meal output in a diner isn't kitchen space or the max number of chefs, but rather the number of chairs. How much capacity would the dining tables in the SSL provide?

I also do like the idea of putting a CCC on the Portland section of the EB.

 

[NE933]

There are only 2 trains that still run with what could be considered a normal compliment of crew for the dining car and don't use SDS guidelines; the Empire Builder and the Auto Train. So let's look at those for our answers.

Well, I am first going to call attention to another factor and that is the inventory/quantity of food. On a Single Level Diner, Heritage or Viewliner, limited space puts a squeeze on things. I remember in 1982 the Silver Star got rid of it's Diner trash at Washington DC during the engine swap, and food for the rest of the way down was brought on board from the commisary. I don't think they do that anymore, unless if someone can correct me on that. With that in mind, Amtrak's intiative to partner with the same suppliers that feed popular eateries (Friday's, Applebee's, etc.) would relieve the space problem as well as ensuring there is enough food to feed all. Also, it eliminates an Amtrak commisary expense since the supplier would be responsible for maintaining a refrigerated facility. And it would do all of us good if Amtrak used the Acela First Class Car model by having meals brought on the dinning cars of LD trains via refrigerated food carts, in which certain items are prehandled (cut/diced to size, veggie parings like potatoes and beans already on a china plate, etc.) leaving more time for the sole chef to do other things, including going to the bathroom if needed.

Secondly, Alan's revelations of how Auto Train runs is a testimonial of what happens when you put enough resources into something. I thought that except for the horrible plastic plates that SDS intiative was dead and shooed away. Maybe Amk didn't have enough time to reverse this??

A P.S. about the plates: I remember reading the contract Corningwear got with Amk during the 90's for attractive china plates that are thin, lightweight, difficult to break unless intended or some other extreme. Were these dishes stored (i hope)?

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Wasn't Amtrak looking at replacing the plastic plates on the California Zephyr with ceramics?

I don't see why Amtrak doesn't use them on all of their LD trains... Stupid Congress. :angry:

 

[AlanB]

Yes, I would assume that until a LD gets up to a critical mass, the diner would be shared by both coach and sleeper passengers. If LD trains got up to 5+ sleepers and 5+ coaches, then I could see two separate diners being used for coach and sleeper passengers like what is done on the Autotrain.

Would it be accurate to say that it's cheaper to go back to pre-SDS levels and use more chefs instead of one chef per diner?

Also, I get the impression that the main constraint for meal output in a diner isn't kitchen space or the max number of chefs, but rather the number of chairs. How much capacity would the dining tables in the SSL provide?

I also do like the idea of putting a CCC on the Portland section of the EB.

First, Amtrak is now doing what I'll call a modified SDS service. They now adjust the number of SA's and cooks based upon how sales in both the sleepers and coach are going. I don't have the actual numbers, but for example at the 3 month mark from departure if sleepers have 50% of the rooms sold and coaches are 35% sold, Amtrak will add one SA for that run. At the one month mark if 75% of the sleepers are now sold and coach is holding at 60%, they'll add a second cook.

Again, those are just examples and not the actual realities. But unlike the early beginings of SDS where the crew never varried, Amtrak has gotten much better at adding crew to meet the demand.

So frankly, in all honesty, this is better cost wise than anything else.

One change that Amtrak does need to make, which to date I haven't seen, is relaxing the SDS staggard seating times. If a train is at I'd say 85% in the sleepers and more than 60% in coach, they should go to the old way/the EB & AT way of seating, which is to fill up the entire dining car. Currently even with increased staffing, the SDS plan of seating X tables every 15 minutes remains. It increases from 4 to 6 or even 8, but that still reduces capacity in the diner. For maximum capacity you need to fill up the entire diner in one seating. Granted the staggard seating method tends to provide faster service to the passenger than does filling up the entire diner at once.

As for constraints, seating is an issue, as is how many chefs, and how much food can be stored.

 

[AlanB]

There are only 2 trains that still run with what could be considered a normal compliment of crew for the dining car and don't use SDS guidelines; the Empire Builder and the Auto Train. So let's look at those for our answers.

Well, I am first going to call attention to another factor and that is the inventory/quantity of food. On a Single Level Diner, Heritage or Viewliner, limited space puts a squeeze on things. I remember in 1982 the Silver Star got rid of it's Diner trash at Washington DC during the engine swap, and food for the rest of the way down was brought on board from the commisary. I don't think they do that anymore, unless if someone can correct me on that. With that in mind, Amtrak's intiative to partner with the same suppliers that feed popular eateries (Friday's, Applebee's, etc.) would relieve the space problem as well as ensuring there is enough food to feed all. Also, it eliminates an Amtrak commisary expense since the supplier would be responsible for maintaining a refrigerated facility. And it would do all of us good if Amtrak used the Acela First Class Car model by having meals brought on the dinning cars of LD trains via refrigerated food carts, in which certain items are prehandled (cut/diced to size, veggie parings like potatoes and beans already on a china plate, etc.) leaving more time for the sole chef to do other things, including going to the bathroom if needed.

Secondly, Alan's revelations of how Auto Train runs is a testimonial of what happens when you put enough resources into something. I thought that except for the horrible plastic plates that SDS intiative was dead and shooed away. Maybe Amk didn't have enough time to reverse this??

A P.S. about the plates: I remember reading the contract Corningwear got with Amk during the 90's for attractive china plates that are thin, lightweight, difficult to break unless intended or some other extreme. Were these dishes stored (i hope)?

Trash has always been dumped at various stations along the way. It's done for space reasons (after all one doesn't neatly pile the trash, unlike an uncooked meal), it's done for health reasons, and it's done for odor reasons.

The dining cars can carry a surprising amount of food, especially the Superliners. I'm not going to swear to it, but it wouldn't surprise me if a Superliner diner couldn't make a coast to coast 3 night run with 3 sleepers and 4 or 5 coaches and carry enough food for everyone without restocking. The single level diners have considerably less room however, they probably would be hard pressed to go 2 days with 3 sleepers and no restocking.

Silver trains, and the Crescent can request items from the DC commissary prior to passing through the station. But that is the only place that they can be restocked these days with "normal" Amtrak supplies, other than at the end points. Emergency supplies can of course be loaded on, but that takes things outside of Amtrak's normal commissary system and ups the costs.

Finally, part of the SDS idea was to pre-plate the food. Certain menu items still arrive like that. I'm not sure if they come on board via the neat little Acela carts or not, but again certain meals are still pre-plated in the dining cars. Intially with the roll out of SDS, everything was pre-plated.

But many chef's protested and complained that they could and wanted to do better for their passengers. So couple with some complaints from the passengers, Amtrak has slowly relented on things. Initially omlettes were put back in the chef's hands. Then steaks. And a few other things. Some chefs even take things further, like tossing the hamburgers on the grill to finish them off and making them tastier.

Finally, I sure hope that Amtrak didn't just throw away all those dishes.

 

[user 1215]

I heard lots of compliments for the veggie burgers. I've never heard compliments for veggie burgers.

On my trip a week ago, the CCC (acting as a half-capacity full diner on the Texas Eagle, now), lost its refrigeration. They were able to make means for sleeper pax, but would not serve coach. But I must compliment Amtrak on several things. First, they offered free coffee to ALL passengers from the Cafe car (while supplies lasted). Then, 3 hours into the STL-CHI detour, they offered EVERY passenger a little snack kit and a mini bottled water. That was freakin' awesome! Everyone got a pack of crackers, spread, a cookie, and it was good. I seem to recall paying close to $8 for a similar snack pack on Continental Airlines...

But that got me to thinking again. Many passengers don't go to the Cafe car because they don't want to leave their personal belongings or children unattended. Why don't they run a revenue snack cart up and down the aisle during long legs? I will start with my first thoughts for answers, but I'd like to know other reasons, too: 1) Union requires an SA to do the job, and won't allow the coach attendant to do the job thus requiring the hiring of another individual. 2) folks may think that the drinks and snacks are free, like on an airline. 3) Cart Stowage.

I'm just trying to think of more ways to increase revenue and comfort for coach pax on long hauls.

As for real dishes, they need to hire another hand to wash 'em, I suppose.

 

[grounded flyboy]

I was on the TE a month ago and the refrigeration was out on that run too. There were lots of complaints although , to me, it seemed to only limit desert selection. Sounds like Amtrak huddled up and learned some lessons and did a better job on your situation.

 

[rrdude]

.............So based upon those two examples, I have to conclude that 3 Superliner sleepers is really the max that a Superliner diner can handle if you still want coach passengers to have a chance at getting into the diner. If you take coach out of the picture, then you could manage 4 sleepers. Alan, that's assuming that you don't increase the crew size in the diner, correct? Before the first SDS. I think Amtrak called it "Modified Meal Service" or something, If memory serves me, in the summer peak travel time, Amtrak staffed the Superliner diners with 5 wait staff, and a steward on top, and a full compliment of staff in the kitchen: Chef, Cook, Prep Cook, Dishwasher (I know, I worked that ungrateful job, at least it we had AC), and sometimes more. Even though we had a "ton" of staff downstairs, it never felt too cramped like the single-level kitchens.

Don't you think they could handle an add'l sleeper, and coach, if they "staffed-up" the waiter/waiteress up top?

Now if we go look at the single level side, both the Meteor and the LSL run with 3 sleepers. And both with SDS cannot handle more. Beef up the staff back to pre-SDS levels and you might be able to get capacity up enough to handle 4 sleepers. But you're not going to push it beyond that, unless you have overflow seating in a cafe car or you totally eliminate coach passengers in the diner. And latter choice would still be pushing things considerably.

 

[Pat Harper]

When calculating the number of people using the diner, please take into consideration that all PAX don't go there. Some have their meais in their rooms, especially the elderly and the handicapped and I would hope families with unruly children as well.

I have no idea what percentage prefer to do this, but it does create extra space in the diner.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I heard lots of compliments for the veggie burgers. I've never heard compliments for veggie burgers.

On my trip a week ago, the CCC (acting as a half-capacity full diner on the Texas Eagle, now), lost its refrigeration. They were able to make means for sleeper pax, but would not serve coach. But I must compliment Amtrak on several things. First, they offered free coffee to ALL passengers from the Cafe car (while supplies lasted). Then, 3 hours into the STL-CHI detour, they offered EVERY passenger a little snack kit and a mini bottled water. That was freakin' awesome! Everyone got a pack of crackers, spread, a cookie, and it was good. I seem to recall paying close to $8 for a similar snack pack on Continental Airlines...

But that got me to thinking again. Many passengers don't go to the Cafe car because they don't want to leave their personal belongings or children unattended. Why don't they run a revenue snack cart up and down the aisle during long legs? I will start with my first thoughts for answers, but I'd like to know other reasons, too: 1) Union requires an SA to do the job, and won't allow the coach attendant to do the job thus requiring the hiring of another individual. 2) folks may think that the drinks and snacks are free, like on an airline. 3) Cart Stowage.

I'm just trying to think of more ways to increase revenue and comfort for coach pax on long hauls.

As for real dishes, they need to hire another hand to wash 'em, I suppose.

In the preAmtrak past there were some cases where they ran a food cart. So far as I remember this was mostly on trains which did not have a diner at all. I think they were called "butcher boys" or "news butch" or something like that.

I think they sold sandwiches, coffee, sort drinks, candy, maybe newspapers. We paid for it. Few then would have expected it to be free since people were not yet as thoroughly used to air travel.

What I recall for sure is that my first actual cup of coffee to buy and completely down was on a multi stop coach only day local from Chattanooga to Memphis about 1960. I ordered the coffee "black" because I could remember that but was not too sure what the options were. Probably one of the healthiest decisions I have made in my life. Been drinking it black ever since.

 

[eagle628]

.

Now if we go look at the single level side, both the Meteor and the LSL run with 3 sleepers. And both with SDS cannot handle more. Beef up the staff back to pre-SDS levels and you might be able to get capacity up enough to handle 4 sleepers. But you're not going to push it beyond that, unless you have overflow seating in a cafe car or you totally eliminate coach passengers in the diner. And latter choice would still be pushing things considerably.

Can't say as to the situation on the LSL (don't completely remember what it was like the last time I rode it), but I'd say the Meteor is struggling as it is with three sleepers to handle the load. When I rode it in April, by the time they reached the coaches to take dinner reservations, the only seatings they had left were the last ones (either eight or nine, can't remember, but I think it was nine), and even then the diner was packed. WRT to Alan's estimates as to how long a single-level sleeper can go with no restocking, I'd say cut it in half. They were running out of food the first night out (I don't know if dinner is served before Miami, but if it is, there is no way there was anything close to a full menu available). Breakfast for some reason seemed much calmer, but the running out of food problem remained both going north and south.

As for the lounge car, there was at one point a line for dinner back into the coach. Even coming back from the diner, well after nine, there was still a substantial line. From what I saw, Amtrak should seriously consider adding a second lounge car when there's that many people on board, if it's possible.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Wasn't Amtrak looking at replacing the plastic plates on the California Zephyr with ceramics?

I don't see why Amtrak doesn't use them on all of their LD trains... Stupid Congress. :angry:

Even just Corelle dinnerware. That stuff rarely breaks when dropped but is much nicer than plastic... and relatively cheap too.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The part that always surprises me is how often the diner is only seated to about half of its capacity on trains that are nearly sold out. Maybe that's part of the reason why they're always losing money?

 

[Anderson]

The part that always surprises me is how often the diner is only seated to about half of its capacity on trains that are nearly sold out. Maybe that's part of the reason why they're always losing money?

On the one hand, diners are always going to lose money on the sheer cost of the diner car, the staff, etc. On the other hand, they do return well enough on COGS from what I can recall looking at the accounting...it's the staffing costs plus car maintenance that are the killers, and with those you can always close the losses with a packed car.

With that said, I've been in the Meteor diner a lot over the course of this year, and it is stunning how empty that diner can be on what is presumably, if not sold out, a reasonably packed train. Of course, it can also be stunning how widely variable it can be...but I presume that varies both with the crowd on board and with the amount of effort the staff puts into mentioning "Hey, folks, we do offer a full-service dinner in a dining car, not just cafe food!" to the coach pax boarding after Newark. When I boarded at PHL, I had to ask about the diner because it was not mentioned at all after I boarded (at least, before the dining announcement for the post-WAS dining announcement, and I think I only heard that because I had...er...positioned myself to hear it).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I presume that varies both with the crowd on board and with the amount of effort the staff puts into mentioning "Hey, folks, we do offer a full-service dinner in a dining car, not just cafe food!" to the coach pax boarding after Newark.

From what I can tell out here in TE/SL land it's not about advertising that the diner exists so much as overtly refusing to allow reservations for coach passengers beyond the first tiny handful that may luck out mopping up whatever the sleeper pax have left available. The last sleeper car gets maybe two seating times to choose from and then the first coach car gets maybe one single seating time beyond the non-reserved breakfast service. If sleeper passengers fail to materialize then coach passengers may get a break if they ignore the formal reservation process and simply show up anyway. Or maybe they'll get shouted at and belittled for even attempting to secure a meal without a reservation ticket. When I'm in coach I rarely attempt anything beyond breakfast.

 

[Anderson]

I presume that varies both with the crowd on board and with the amount of effort the staff puts into mentioning "Hey, folks, we do offer a full-service dinner in a dining car, not just cafe food!" to the coach pax boarding after Newark.

From what I can tell out here in TE/SL land it's not about advertising that the diner exists so much as overtly refusing to allow reservations for coach passengers beyond the first tiny handful that may luck out mopping up whatever the sleeper pax have left available. The last sleeper car gets maybe two seating times to choose from and then the first coach car gets maybe one single seating time beyond the non-reserved breakfast service. If sleeper passengers fail to materialize then coach passengers may get a break if they ignore the formal reservation process and simply show up anyway. Or maybe they'll get shouted at and belittled for even attempting to secure a meal without a reservation ticket. When I'm in coach I rarely attempt anything beyond breakfast.

At least with the TE, I think the CCC is to blame. I'm not sure about the SL. With that said, I've never been belittled...but I've also "whistled Dixie" more than once to get into the diner (that is, neither saying that I had a reservation nor denying it, hoping to slip in through the middle of a rushed seating out of WAS and just ask for a seat for one).

 

[AlanB]

But that got me to thinking again. Many passengers don't go to the Cafe car because they don't want to leave their personal belongings or children unattended. Why don't they run a revenue snack cart up and down the aisle during long legs? I will start with my first thoughts for answers, but I'd like to know other reasons, too: 1) Union requires an SA to do the job, and won't allow the coach attendant to do the job thus requiring the hiring of another individual. 2) folks may think that the drinks and snacks are free, like on an airline. 3) Cart Stowage.
I'm just trying to think of more ways to increase revenue and comfort for coach pax on long hauls.

As for real dishes, they need to hire another hand to wash 'em, I suppose.

Regarding #1; they need an LSA when money is involved. A coach attendant is actually an SA (Service Attendant). #2; don't really see that as too big of a problem. #3; shouldn't be too big of a problem. Much bigger problems with the cart however include; it blocks the aisles which is a big problem and how do you get it up and down the stairs to serve the lower level pax?

Now, other problems issues. Generally those carts don't make enough money to pay for the salary of the person working the cart. Even on Acela, not every train gets a cart simply because some runs either don't seem to have "buyers" or there just simply aren't enough people regularly riding that run to warrant a cart. I'm also not sure that there are all that many people who won't leave their luggage behind for the amount of time it takes to run and get something and bring it back.

It is an interesting thought however, just not sure that it would produce enough revenue to make it worthwhile.

As for the dishwasher, prior to SDS most trains had 2 cooks. It was the assistant cook's job to run the dishwasher. SDS eliminated the assistant cook, hence the reason for plasticware in the dining car.

 

[AlanB]

I was on the TE a month ago and the refrigeration was out on that run too. There were lots of complaints although , to me, it seemed to only limit desert selection. Sounds like Amtrak huddled up and learned some lessons and did a better job on your situation.

Well I think a lot depends on just what refrigeration went out. There is more than one fridge and freezer in the car, so without knowing what went out it's hard to say what they can or cannot do.

As for the snack packs & water, that's standard issue for every Amtrak train in the country. No train leaves its originating station without a full compliment of those emergency kits. Any time there is a major delay or a major food service problem, those kits are supposed to be handed out to the passengers.

I'm not sure if the crew itself is supposed to make that determination or if it has to be cleared through CNOC (Consolidated National Operations Center) located in Wilmington, DE.

 

[AlanB]

WRT to Alan's estimates as to how long a single-level sleeper can go with no restocking, I'd say cut it in half. They were running out of food the first night out (I don't know if dinner is served before Miami, but if it is, there is no way there was anything close to a full menu available). Breakfast for some reason seemed much calmer, but the running out of food problem remained both going north and south.

I suspect that had more to do with either poor planning or Amtrak's unwillingness to place too many of the same meals on the train for spoiledge reasons. Those single level diners can hold more food. They can't carry what a Superliner carries, but they can do better than what you experienced.

One other thought, perhaps the fact that many meals are pre-plated reduces the total carrying capacity some. Those cars were designed to carry the "raw materials" if you will for the makings of the meal.

 

[AlanB]

.............So based upon those two examples, I have to conclude that 3 Superliner sleepers is really the max that a Superliner diner can handle if you still want coach passengers to have a chance at getting into the diner. If you take coach out of the picture, then you could manage 4 sleepers. Alan, that's assuming that you don't increase the crew size in the diner, correct? Before the first SDS. I think Amtrak called it "Modified Meal Service" or something, If memory serves me, in the summer peak travel time, Amtrak staffed the Superliner diners with 5 wait staff, and a steward on top, and a full compliment of staff in the kitchen: Chef, Cook, Prep Cook, Dishwasher (I know, I worked that ungrateful job, at least it we had AC), and sometimes more. Even though we had a "ton" of staff downstairs, it never felt too cramped like the single-level kitchens.

Don't you think they could handle an add'l sleeper, and coach, if they "staffed-up" the waiter/waiteress up top?

Now if we go look at the single level side, both the Meteor and the LSL run with 3 sleepers. And both with SDS cannot handle more. Beef up the staff back to pre-SDS levels and you might be able to get capacity up enough to handle 4 sleepers. But you're not going to push it beyond that, unless you have overflow seating in a cafe car or you totally eliminate coach passengers in the diner. And latter choice would still be pushing things considerably.

The Superliner dining car has a rated capacity of 72 people. Unfortunately the upstairs prep area really is too small for the needs. So most crews take away at least 2 tables. I'll say, give them only 1 which drops the capacity to 68 people. If they run 3 seatings, that a total of 204 passengers that can be served.

If we assume an average sleeper occupancy of 35, they hold 44 when all rooms are at max capacity, that means that with 4 sleepers they're going to see 140 people in the dining car. That only leaves 60 slots now for coach passengers. One Superliner coach at max capacity holds 75 passengers. That means that on a train with 3 coaches, not even 1/3rd of the coach passengers can get into the dining car.

So adding a 5th sleeper would now only leave about 30 seats for coach passengers.

The only way around that would be to do 4 seatings at say 4:30, 6:00, 7:30, & 9:00. And that might not be possible to do in terms of whether or not the car can carry that many meals on a 2 night trip.