How much does Amtrak actual make (or lose) on each train trip?

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inspiration100

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Title asks the question, someone may have already asked this but I searched and came up zero. How much money does Amtrak make (or lose) each train trip. Let's say the Empire Builder (or another train is fine if you have statistics) considering the train is FULL. I know it's hard to be close to exact with gas prices always changing but just curious roughly.
 
Title asks the question, someone may have already asked this but I searched and came up zero. How much money does Amtrak make (or lose) each train trip. Let's say the Empire Builder (or another train is fine if you have statistics) considering the train is FULL. I know it's hard to be close to exact with gas prices always changing but just curious roughly.
There are no simplistic answers to the question. First of all, do you use the fully allocated accounting method or avoidable cost? Secondly, are you asking on a trainset basis, or a per-passenger basis?

There is no way to isolate one specific train on one particular day.
 
NO. I think your making it more complicated than I'm asking. I'm just curious in general how much Amtrak makes or loses per train. Either trainset basis or passenger basis would be interesting. Knowing how many train gurus are around here I thought one might have a rough idea.
 
I grow weary of this line of inquiry.

It's not a matter of profit or loss (if anybody thought they could make a profit on passenger service they'd be doing it), it's a matter of transportation infrastructure. Sadly, the U.S. is the only developed nation that doesn't recognize this. Also the only one without universal health care, but that's a different subject.
 
I grow weary of this line of inquiry.
It's not a matter of profit or loss (if anybody thought they could make a profit on passenger service they'd be doing it), it's a matter of transportation infrastructure. Sadly, the U.S. is the only developed nation that doesn't recognize this. Also the only one without universal health care, but that's a different subject.
I agree with you, but at the same time, there IS an answer to his question. It can pretty much be found here: http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/0806monthly.pdf, at least for June. If you go to the 'About Amtrak' section of the website there are also reports for other months and years.

And I think looking at those numbers is interesting, because it proves that when you have reliable, decent speed track (i.e. NEC) that passenger rail can cover its operating costs. It can't be profitable, because of the infrastructure involved, but then really no industry in transportation can (airlines wouldn't be profitable if they had to construct airports or staff ATC towers (plus they also get mail contracts and such), and trucking companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to build, pave and maintain their own roads). But once you lay down the necessary infrastructure, these industries can usually cover their variable costs.
 
It can't be profitable, because of the infrastructure involved, but then really no industry in transportation can (airlines wouldn't be profitable if they had to construct airports or staff ATC towers (plus they also get mail contracts and such), and trucking companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to build, pave and maintain their own roads). But once you lay down the necessary infrastructure, these industries can usually cover their variable costs.
Good points. ;)

A 100 years ago or so, the Railroads were all considered "bad". They were the mega-companies, producing extremely wealthy railroad barons. In public opinion, railroads in their day, were some combination of today's opinions of Enron, Exxon-Mobile, GW Bush, and Osama bin Laden.

So, the USA went down a path were they would fight the "bad" railroad giants by heavily subsidizing every other form of transportation. This eventually became the airports, the highways/roads, and the ship ports.

Well, that policy worked. They were able to successfully cripple the railroad industry, and bring it to its knees.

And that policy hasn't changed much in many people's minds. Today, people who complain about subsidizing Amtrak, typically are completely silent on the subsidizing of all other forms of transportation.
 
I grow weary of this line of inquiry.
It's not a matter of profit or loss (if anybody thought they could make a profit on passenger service they'd be doing it), it's a matter of transportation infrastructure. Sadly, the U.S. is the only developed nation that doesn't recognize this. Also the only one without universal health care, but that's a different subject.
Maybe one of two developed nations. Canada also has a pretty bad record of supporting what was once a comprehensive national rail passenger network.

Gord
 
I don't think the NEC is a better money maker because of equipment and service performance. Rather, it's the population density and the increase ridership.
 
I don't think the NEC is a better money maker because of equipment and service performance. Rather, it's the population density and the increase ridership.
The population density does help, but I think there's plentiful examples of corridors with high population density and poor rail service that don't make money. Look at a lot of the California services for instance. If you shortened the time (110 MPH running) and increased the frequency on the Cascades (and more regularly sent them up to Vancouver) I think that would make much more money.

So yes, you do need population density, because population density allows for frequency. But I think that frequency and speed are the real keys to making more money on a route. Population density alone will not do the trick. In fact, I think an easy comparison is looking at any area that has fairly frequent short haul flights but poor rail service. Even look at Burlington - we don't have the population density in VT, but there are 1,064 seats a day on airplanes from BTV to the New York region. Having worked at BTV, I know that a minimum of 35% of those people have a final destination of New York and that the average load factor for my airline (600 of those seats) was about 85-90%. If you could even offer the 78 MPH average speed that one gets between New York and Boston, you're talking 4.6 hours to New York which would be faster than driving by about an hour, based on my typical experience. And that's just capturing BTV pax, not the very large number of people who drive the route nor anyone who boards at further station stops down the line (nor the traffic you'd get if you ran the train from Montreal, as Canadians account for 47% of BTV's volume). I'd say realistically you could run about 4 trains a day accounting for ridership further down the line, as well as people going to points south of New York. And I'd bet you'd cover pretty much all your operating costs too, and then some.

Now the infrastructure costs would be absolutely unreal, but again, that's my point from above: speed + frequency will almost always cover operating costs, but certainly not capital costs. And that's an example with low population density for much of the route until Springfield.
 
I grow weary of this line of inquiry.
It's not a matter of profit or loss (if anybody thought they could make a profit on passenger service they'd be doing it), it's a matter of transportation infrastructure. Sadly, the U.S. is the only developed nation that doesn't recognize this. Also the only one without universal health care, but that's a different subject.
I agree with you, but at the same time, there IS an answer to his question. It can pretty much be found here: http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/0806monthly.pdf, at least for June. If you go to the 'About Amtrak' section of the website there are also reports for other months and years.

And I think looking at those numbers is interesting, because it proves that when you have reliable, decent speed track (i.e. NEC) that passenger rail can cover its operating costs. It can't be profitable, because of the infrastructure involved, but then really no industry in transportation can (airlines wouldn't be profitable if they had to construct airports or staff ATC towers (plus they also get mail contracts and such), and trucking companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to build, pave and maintain their own roads). But once you lay down the necessary infrastructure, these industries can usually cover their variable costs.
I'm surprised they release that information to the public. Yes I had thought that it was either a break even or a loss but I agree with all o fyou. It's a matter of transportation. Without Amtrak I think I would lose my head.
 
I'm surprised they release that information to the public. Yes I had thought that it was either a break even or a loss but I agree with all o fyou. It's a matter of transportation. Without Amtrak I think I would lose my head.
Being primarily funded by the Federal Government, it's an accountability requirement.
 
A common figure I see around is 50%.

The cost to run Amtrak is covered 50% by ticket sales, and 50% by government substidizing.

The problem, as mentioned above, is it makes a difference if you calculate with the government funding.

For example, Southwest Airlines, and Greyhound buses seem to make a profit, but that does not include the massive government funding that goes into the airspace infrastructure, or the massive funding for the highway/roads system.

So its a bit unfair to compare rail to other methods of transportation that way, but unfortunetly, that is the way its done in Washington DC.

Part of the problem is train travel is viewed by many as a luxury for superrich. I would guess most Americans have never been on a train before. Unlike Europe, where everyone uses the train.

European trains also do not make a "profit", and they are not designed to. They are viewed like policemen, firearms, hospitals, etc. Transportation is a critical part of society, and
 
...European trains also do not make a "profit", and they are not designed to. They are viewed like policemen, firearms, hospitals, etc.
SCNF (France) reported it's 4th straight year of profit in 2007. They reported net income of 657 million Euro on gross revenue of 23.7 billion Euro. They returned 110 million Euro to the government for capital improvements.

Recognize that SCNF is an operating company. They run trains on government-owned tracks. But, they are not viewed like a government service. They are expected to make a profit running trains, and they do.
 
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...European trains also do not make a "profit", and they are not designed to. They are viewed like policemen, firearms, hospitals, etc.
SCNF (France) reported it's 4th straight year of profit in 2007. They reported net income of 657 million Euro on gross revenue of 23.7 billion Euro. They returned 110 million Euro to the government for capital improvements.

Recognize that SCNF is an operating company. They run trains on government-owned tracks. But, they are not viewed like a government service. They are expected to make a profit running trains, and they do.
Right. The key is separating capital costs from operating costs, which isn't currently done. Of course, this approach would never work with Amtrak, because the infrastructure and frequencies of most of its services are so poor.
 
Now the infrastructure costs would be absolutely unreal, but again, that's my point from above: speed + frequency will almost always cover operating costs, but certainly not capital costs. And that's an example with low population density for much of the route until Springfield.
The infrastructure would cost something, but much of that cost would go to create American jobs, and if that track were electrified it would reduce the amount of energy that America has to import which might help to strengthen the dollar. I'm not convinced that this investment would lose as much money as it seems at a first glance.

Wikipedia says the greater Montreal area has a population of 3.6 million, and Google Maps tells me it's roughly 380 miles to New York City and 300 miles to Boston. If you want to argue that Salt Lake City and larger census areas should get high speed rail to equally large census areas within 500 miles, you could build track from Montreal to near Burlington, which from there could have two branches, one continuing to Albany and New York City, and the other to Boston. This also would justify service to Albany in an earlier round of construction than if Albany were trying to justify federal funding purely on Albany's size.
 
And I think looking at those numbers is interesting, because it proves that when you have reliable, decent speed track (i.e. NEC) that passenger rail can cover its operating costs. It can't be profitable, because of the infrastructure involved, but then really no industry in transportation can (airlines wouldn't be profitable if they had to construct airports or staff ATC towers (plus they also get mail contracts and such), and trucking companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to build, pave and maintain their own roads). But once you lay down the necessary infrastructure, these industries can usually cover their variable costs.
But lots of people the Amtrak numbers it publishes aren't exactly accurate and say the NEC really does not make a profit. I don't really know.

And nay-sayers to Amtrak subsidies argue that airports and highways are fully paid for by the users. Ticket taxes pay for airports and airways and ATC and the gas tax, vehicle taxes and other fees pay for highways. They even say in Texas, my state, that theirs a big surplus from the gas tax that goes toward public education. Their arguement is everything should be privatized.

My arguement, is why did the government decided to into get into the transportation business (building highways) that put another form of transportation (railroads) that was doing just fine and making huge profits. Then drive the industry into bankruptcy and on the verge of falling apart.
 
The one that always ticks me off is the: "it would cost less to pay for a plane ticket for each passenger who rides... (whatever train- usually the Sunset Limited I believe).

Well the simple answer is: One should not measure Amtrak by each train but as a NATIONAL system. Following that logic, according to Amtrak: 25.8 million riders used Amtrak last year. Amtrak earned $2.15 billion but put out $3.18 billion in expenses. Amtrak took in $1.294 billion from the federal government to make ends meet.

Soooo- $1,294,000,000/25,800,000 passengers = $50.16 per passenger in subsidy. Or divide $1,294,000,000 by the number of tax paying adults, (the US population is right around 300 million, so lets say approximately 200 million tax payers), you get $6.47 per person in subsidy funding last year in this country for Amtrak.

This is not hard to find, it took me all of about 10 minutes and since Amtrak is the only show in town, regarding passenger rail, its pretty easy to calculate. I would like to see a similar breakdown for the airlines/airports/TSA and Air Traffic controllers. I'd bet we're paying a bit more than $6.47 and that's OK with me, I fly when I have to.

I just wish more people would look at how much Amtrak really costs in the greater scheme of things. Heck a B-2 bomber costs about 1.2 billion, our nuclear subs cost about the same and every time the space shuttle goes up, you guessed it- approximately 1.2 billion. So, decide for yourselves if its worth your $6.47 to keep Amtrak rolling. I think it is, in fact put me down for $100.
 
The one that always ticks me off is the: "it would cost less to pay for a plane ticket for each passenger who rides... (whatever train- usually the Sunset Limited I believe).
I completely agree. In fact, the whole discussion of what is costs in general bothers me. Not because that isn't important, but because I think the debate should be framed like this:

We have a serious oil dependence problem in this country. A massive percentage of that oil is used in transportation and transportation is one of the hardest areas to substitute an alternate fuel relatively easily. What are we, as a nation, going to do about it? The answer isn't more planes, nor is it private automobiles. Which basically leaves buses and trains, and I think I can speak for most of the country when I say people generally prefer trains over buses.

I don't really care what it costs, I want a plan - I want some sort of road map forward that says how are we going to get ourselves out of this mess? And buying plane tickets with tax dollars is NOT the answer. The amount we are currently spending on Amtrak pales in comparison to what we'll need to spend to have the infrastructure to live comfortably in a post-oil era. If you think the [insert train name here] should be eliminated because no one rides it, then perhaps you should invest the money to make a train that people will want to ride! And it all comes down to infrastructure.
 
SCNF (France) reported it's 4th straight year of profit in 2007. They reported net income of 657 million Euro on gross revenue of 23.7 billion Euro. They returned 110 million Euro to the government for capital improvements.
You are leaving out the important details.

The French rail system has ALWAYS lost money. A huge amount in fact.

So France, using a common trick, split French rail into 2 companies: SNCF and RFF.

SNCF would be in charge of the trains, and RFF in charge of the rails.

The bigger reason is that RFF is responsible for infrastructure, which is vastly more expensive then the upkeep of the trains. So publically, France can claim that its National Rail system generates a profit, but only because they split the vastly unprofitable section into a seperate division.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but it confirms my point that European trains are not profitable, and not designed to be. they are considered a vital part of the society, and economic growth.

The USA should view its own national rail the same way.
 
The one that always ticks me off is the: "it would cost less to pay for a plane ticket for each passenger who rides... (whatever train- usually the Sunset Limited I believe).
I completely agree. In fact, the whole discussion of what is costs in general bothers me. Not because that isn't important, but because I think the debate should be framed like this:

We have a serious oil dependence problem in this country. A massive percentage of that oil is used in transportation and transportation is one of the hardest areas to substitute an alternate fuel relatively easily. What are we, as a nation, going to do about it? The answer isn't more planes, nor is it private automobiles. Which basically leaves buses and trains, and I think I can speak for most of the country when I say people generally prefer trains over buses.

I don't really care what it costs, I want a plan - I want some sort of road map forward that says how are we going to get ourselves out of this mess? And buying plane tickets with tax dollars is NOT the answer. The amount we are currently spending on Amtrak pales in comparison to what we'll need to spend to have the infrastructure to live comfortably in a post-oil era. If you think the [insert train name here] should be eliminated because no one rides it, then perhaps you should invest the money to make a train that people will want to ride! And it all comes down to infrastructure.

Here's the problem. People don't want to know the plan going forward. They want to know how you are going to get the amount they are paying for gas down. They don't realize there are other ways of doing things.
 
We have a serious oil dependence problem in this country. A massive percentage of that oil is used in transportation and transportation is one of the hardest areas to substitute an alternate fuel relatively easily. What are we, as a nation, going to do about it? The answer isn't more planes, nor is it private automobiles. Which basically leaves buses and trains, and I think I can speak for most of the country when I say people generally prefer trains over buses.
We also need to clarify whether we're focused on the intercity or the local transportation aspect of this.

I've never seen an electrified intercity bus.

On the other hand, within a city, there are places where you may not want to build a tunnel for the trains because of the cost / benefit, and there's no space to separate trains from automobile traffic. There's a part of the E branch of the MBTA Green Line where the train actually runs in the same lane as traffic, and driving a light truck on the tracks (I've done it) kind of sucks. (On the other hand, the E branch is a case where I think maybe a tunnel makes sense. But there are other tunnels that people seem to want more at the moment.)

I don't really care what it costs, I want a plan - I want some sort of road map forward that says how are we going to get ourselves out of this mess? And buying plane tickets with tax dollars is NOT the answer. The amount we are currently spending on Amtrak pales in comparison to what we'll need to spend to have the infrastructure to live comfortably in a post-oil era. If you think the [insert train name here] should be eliminated because no one rides it, then perhaps you should invest the money to make a train that people will want to ride! And it all comes down to infrastructure.
There are several things that belong in that plan:

1) High speed intercity rail service. Where you see a Salt Lake City or larger primary census area within 500 miles (or perhaps even somewhat more) of another similarily large primary census area, there ought to be tracks and trains that will get you from downtown station to downtown station in three hours or less. This plus sleeper service being available on these high speed tracks for longer trips ought to reduce the airplane dependence significantly. Nobody seems to run high speed rail off anything other than catenary, and that's what these tracks should use.

2) Expanded Amtrak service to smaller towns. The red routes on NARP's map of proposed routes may be a good starting point. I tend to feel like ideally these trains should be operated on existing freight tracks, but maybe Amtrak should get new, dedicated to Amtrak, (mostly) single track along abandoned rights of way / rights of way that have lost tracks over the years. These tracks, and all of Amtrak's existing routes, all should be electrified with catenary.

3) Electrified local mass transportation.

4) Electrify the freight railroads, and expand their capacity to the point where long haul cargo doesn't tend to end up on the highways so much.

5) Encourage zoning that will prevent new buildings from being built in places / ways that are incompatible with mass transit.

6) Convince the farmers who live out in the middle of nowhere that getting city dwellers to stop using so much gasoline by spending money on all of the above will help to keep the prices they pay for gasoline from rising as quickly.

There's also the question of whether increasing the demand for copper by doing this will cause problems.
 
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Here's the problem. People don't want to know the plan going forward. They want to know how you are going to get the amount they are paying for gas down. They don't realize there are other ways of doing things.
I also have not seen any viable proposals for getting the cost of oil down in the next 6-8 years, regardless of whether the solution is drilling for more oil or building rail infrastructure. Unless it turns out that getting people to stop wasting diesel fuel to heat their homes, etc, goes a long enough way.
 
Getting the price of oil down is a problem, so any attempt to do so is, unquestionably, a problem, not a solution.

By the way, there are buses running INTRA-city but without tracks that run on overhead catenary. I forget where they are, I know Orion and New Flyer build such busses, and I'm sure there are others. New Flyer calls them "Trolleys".
 
Getting the price of oil down is a problem, so any attempt to do so is, unquestionably, a problem, not a solution.
How about we describe it as the problem of providing high quality transportation with a low cost?

By the way, there are buses running INTRA-city but without tracks that run on overhead catenary. I forget where they are, I know Orion and New Flyer build such busses, and I'm sure there are others. New Flyer calls them "Trolleys".
The MBTA's most recent ones were built by Neoplan. The articulated dual mode buses have the silly silver paint and run on the SL1/SL2/SL3 routes out of that silly bus tunnel at South Station where five minutes or so after departing from South Station they waste a couple minutes switching to diesel; the electric only buses run out of Harvard Square.

I think the previous generation trolleybuses out of Harvard Square were made by New Flyer, and I think the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine has at least one example. They were all pretty rusty when the Neoplan trolleybuses went into service, as I recall.

I'm not sure the overhead wire they use actually counts as catenary.

There are some places where diesel buses whose interiors bear some resemblance to the trolleys of maybe a century ago are called trolleys, too.
 
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