How safe are America's railroads?

[TinCan782]

On 60 Minutes this evening ...

 Lesley Stahl reports on a recent string of crashes on US railroads and the delay in implementing life-saving technology that could have prevented them

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-safe-are-americas-railroads-60-minutes/

 

[greatcats]

Just saw it on 60 Minutes.   One could take issue with some of the points regarding PTC, but it was a sobering report and bad publicity for Amtrak. 

 

[cpotisch]

We've got plenty of typical mainstream news outlet train naïveté happening there. I probably shouldn't have expected any more from them, but...argh.

Albert Linden: These tracks are in horrible shape.

Lesley Stahl: Had you ever seen any other accident? Any derailment?

Albert Linden: Yes, ma'am. It's quite frequent.

Lesley Stahl: It's frequent?

Albert Linden: In the last ten years, there's probably been seven, eight of them. They forgot to flip the switch, and derailed them in here.

Somebody else can jump in here, but this doesn't sound accurate.

Lesley Stahl: The same thing?

Albert Linden: Yes, ma'am. Forgetting to flip the switch.

But how does that connect to the tracks being "in horrible shape"? And does this mean the track has always been dark territory every single time there's been a crash here for the past ten years?

The major railroads – including CSX and Amtrak - each own miles of their own tracks and their trains ride on each other's tracks.  

Wow! Whole miles of tracks!

Lesley Stahl: It seems so obvious. It just seems so urgent that it's almost unfathomable that it doesn't get done.

Leslie, I don't think you understand all the technical and practical challenges here.

Lesley Stahl: Why are they so lenient with the railroads?  Somebody told us that in his opinion they're captive to the railroad system, to the industry.

What would that even mean here, and what “someone” told you this?

Lesley Stahl: I mean, it's safety. You're, they're, they have people's lives in their hands. 

What? The whole reason they were running in dark territory IS TO INSTALL PTC. This is such a crucial and easily discoverable fact!

And there are tens of thousands of miles of trackage in the U.S, and it takes A LONG TIME to implement PTC on all of it. Even without PTC, rail is the second safest way to travel (behind planes) so if America just shut down any track that doesn't have PTC, travelers would end up much less safe.

Lesley Stahl: In your opinion, is train travel safe?

Mark James: No.

Lesley Stahl: Would you put your daughter on an Amtrak train?

Mark James: No. I wouldn't get on one myself.

OK, this is just lazy Amtrak-bashing now. This crash was CSX's fault! It was the actions of a CSX employee that caused it. Amtrak didn't do anything wrong.

And as I said above, rail is the second safest way to travel, so him or his daughter taking a car or bus instead is a much worse idea. Sigh.

 

[greatcats]

Agree with much of what you stated.  The business owner’s remarks were, in my opinion, ill informed and should not have been included.    Nearly all of us drive, and we understand the risks doing that are higher than other forms of transportation. 

 

[daybeers]

I also agree. I think overall the report was accurate, but with some glaring errors, one being the whole reason for the dark territory in SC was for PTC installation. The others were just misrepresentations:

As of today only 10 percent of the mandated railroads have fully implemented PTC.

While this may be true, according to the FRA's PTC Progress page, the majority of railroads have been conditionally certified on all miles of track. Amtrak has PTC enabled on all the track it owns, and claims here that as of February 8, 2019, " Eighty-four percent of all route miles are operational with PTC on the overall Amtrak system."

And there are tens of thousands of miles of trackage in the U.S, and it takes A LONG TIME to implement PTC on all of it. Even without PTC, rail is the second safest way to travel (behind planes) so if America just shut down any track that doesn't have PTC, travelers would end up much less safe.

10 years is more than enough time.

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm more miffed they used a lot of my Columbia railroad footage without credit.

 

[cpotisch]

I'm more miffed they used a lot of my Columbia railroad footage without credit.

Where?

 

[Acela150]

I'm more miffed they used a lot of my Columbia railroad footage without credit.

Well if you have proof feel free to drop them a letter.  

 

[Seaboard92]

I just did. I don't mind as long as they pay. I'm their main train consultant these days they paid for me to go to the Funeral train, and my way to 4014 this spring. So I can't complain. But those weren't in my agreement.

 

[Acela150]

Back on topic. I truly believe that trains in America are safer then long ago. These days the most dangerous part of ones train trip is the ride to the station in the car or bus. But my ex would beg to differ. Anyway, you can find my rear end sitting on the train rather then the drivers seat of my Honda on a trip where there's a choice. Most incidents that occur these days, PTC would not be able to prevent. 

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Lesley Stahl: In your opinion, is train travel safe?

Mark James: No.

Lesley Stahl: Would you put your daughter on an Amtrak train?

Mark James: No. I wouldn't get on one myself.

OK, this is just lazy Amtrak-bashing now. This crash was CSX's fault! It was the actions of a CSX employee that caused it. Amtrak didn't do anything wrong.

And as I said above, rail is the second safest way to travel, so him or his daughter taking a car or bus instead is a much worse idea. Sigh.

I have to agree.   With this ratings stunt, IMHO, Lesley Staht not only destroyed her own creditability, but also the credibility of her peers on 60 Minutes.  I will never view any report on 60 Minutes quite the same way again.

 

[NSC1109]

I’m sorry but that CSX engineer is an idiot. The second that accident happened it was clear the conductor failed to throw the switch. In no way was this Amtrak’s fault. 

I emphasize with what he’s struggling with in the aftermath, but he shouldn’t get his job back, in my opinion.

 

[Thirdrail7]

OK, this is just lazy Amtrak-bashing now. This crash was CSX's fault! It was the actions of a CSX employee that caused it. Amtrak didn't do anything wrong.

And as I said above, rail is the second safest way to travel, so him or his daughter taking a car or bus instead is a much worse idea. Sigh.

I’m sorry but that CSX engineer is an idiot. The second that accident happened it was clear the conductor failed to throw the switch. In no way was this Amtrak’s fault. 

Can anyone show me where he stated this was Amtrak's fault?  He never stated that. He just said he wouldn't get on an Amtrak train. Did you ever consider the fact that he won't get on an Amtrak train is based on KNOWING Amtrak mostly operates on freight territory (like his former territory), and as an employee (or former employee), he is keenly aware of what occurs behind the scenes?

This may be an indication of what he thinks of the hosts and their "rush rush, cut costs, bigger trains, less personnel  " mentality.   He's probably not alone. I know many people that won't eat where they cook...or avoid the industry altogether! It is not uncommon.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Can anyone show me where he stated this was Amtrak's fault?  He never stated that. He just said he wouldn't get on an Amtrak train. Did you ever consider the fact that he won't get on an Amtrak train is based on KNOWING Amtrak mostly operates on freight territory (like his former territory), and as an employee (or former employee), he is keenly aware of what occurs behind the scenes?

The general public doesn't analyze what he said, to that degree.    The issue I have, is that the entire story, for which he was a major "witness", clearly leaves the viewer feeling that Amtrak is the one that is solely GUILTY on all counts !  :angry2:

Yea, the people here understand that LD passenger trains and freight trains are two very separate identities.    The general public sees them as all simply Choo-Choos that run on public tracks.

Also the general public doesn't grasp the job of a Choo-Choo engineer (I think Lesley even refers to him as the train driver), vs. the ticket-collecting conductor.   Obviously, neither is responsible for correctly setting the switches; only Amtrak is!  :blink:

 

[Thirdrail7]

Look at the bright side. A number of the trains in the video had a Union Pacific diesel on point.

At least they were dragged down with Amtrak! ^_^

 

[dlagrua]

Judging solely by accidents, Amtrak may be the second safest way to travel behind aircraft but its the safest transportation if in an accident. If a plane comes down as it just did in Africa, everyone perishes. If a car or truck causes an accident at a grade crossing or if a train derails, in most cases the majority of the people on the train survive. If we derive an equation of the survival rate per passenger per accident, compared to the total number of people on the train, I would say Amtrak is safest..

 

[Ryan]

If a plane comes down as it just did in Africa, everyone perishes.

You keep repeating this, and keep ignoring when we point out all of the plane crashes where people survive.

 

[cpotisch]

If a plane comes down as it just did in Africa, everyone perishes.

You keep repeating this, and keep ignoring when we point out all of the plane crashes where people survive.

Exactly. They don't measure the safety of the different modes of travel through the number of accidents. They measure it in fatalities. These figures don't take into account the amount of times a plane has returned to the airport, that a P42 has pooped out and needed to be towed by a freight engine the rest of the way, or that someone has gotten into a fender bender. It just comes down to the fatality rate.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Judging solely by accidents, Amtrak may be the second safest way to travel behind aircraft but its the safest transportation if in an accident. If a plane comes down as it just did in Africa, everyone perishes. If a car or truck causes an accident at a grade crossing or if a train derails, in most cases the majority of the people on the train survive. If we derive an equation of the survival rate per passenger per accident, compared to the total number of people on the train, I would say Amtrak is safest..

Comes down to which is better?    

Having the pilot come on the PA, telling you that all of the plane's engines have failed.     Or having the conductor come on the PA, telling your that all of the train's engines have failed.

I still think of TWA flight 800.    The front end of the plane broke off, including the cockpit, and fell into the ocean.   No pilot.   No control possible.    The rest of the plane, with nearly all of the passengers still there, continued to fly for, what, 10 more minutes (the front end missing actually changed the center of gravity, causing the plane to tip up and gain altitude for a while).   Those 10 minutes, knowing that there is no way to possibly avoid the upcoming fatal crash.

 

[cpotisch]

Comes down to which is better?    

That still misses the fact that the statistics he is referring to were not calculated at all in the way he’s claiming they were. You are much more likely to survive a flight than you are to survive a train.

 

[Ryan]

Indeed.  That's why data is better than emotion for decision making.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

You are much more likely to survive a flight than you are to survive a train.

OK, what is the survival rate for a plane crash vs. a train crash.

When I think of a plane crash, I envision it falling straight into the ground from 40K feet.    When I think of a train crash, I envision the engine striking a SmartCar at a RR crossing. 

 

[cpotisch]

OK, what is the survival rate for a plane crash vs. a train crash.

When I think of a plane crash, I envision it falling straight into the ground from 40K feet.    When I think of a train crash, I envision the engine striking a SmartCar at a RR crossing. 

It doesn’t matter what you “envision”. What matters are the numbers. As seen here and on many other pages, there were 0.43 deaths per billion passenger miles by rail in the U.S. from 2000 to 2009, as opposed to 0.07 deaths per billion passenger miles by air. That’s a pretty clear discrepancy.

 

[Ryan]

There were 0.43 deaths per billion passenger miles by rail in the U.S. from 2000 to 2009, as opposed to 0.07 deaths per billion passenger miles by train.

+1 for using statistics.

-1 for hosing them up.   I presume you mean "by air" in one of them? 

 

[cpotisch]

There were 0.43 deaths per billion passenger miles by rail in the U.S. from 2000 to 2009, as opposed to 0.07 deaths per billion passenger miles by train.

+1 for using statistics.

-1 for hosing them up.   I presume you mean "by air" in one of them? 

Plane rhymes with train. Sue me.