How would you design the Superliner III's???

[amtrakadirondack]

Please tell me how you would design them.

 

[gyuri_ft]

- The economy bedroom in the current ones is way too cramped.

- perhaps I would use a single-level design and make a better viewliner.

- how about economy section (like the Pullmann was in early days)?

- perhaps some people prefere JUST have good sleep and forego the diner?

This came in my mind, but there would be certainly more.

 

[sutton8596]

I think the number one thing Amtrak could do to get more passengers would be to add berths, such as the other poster suggested and what Via Rail has now. Many people can't handle one or two overnights in coach but can't afford the sleeper.

And continue to upgrade/vary the food.

Eventually add more than one lounge car during the summer months (I know they need to build more first)

And..in an ideal world...have something like the Pacific Parlour Car for every long distance train

scott

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I do not like the standard room not having toilet or lavatory. But of course that leads up ot the Viewliner having an open toilet for two people in that standard room, also a problem.

 

[gyuri_ft]

IMHO a sweet spot is a train departing at 6 PM, arriving 9 AM next day. With 50 mph average it covers 750 miles. The R/T fare of $150 including cheap bedding would near kill the plane on that distance.

750 miles is Portland - San Jose.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The country used to be full of trains just like that---they were designed with the business traveler in mind......leave the office, go to the station, eat two meals and sleep on the train.....do business the next day....return ,same kind of schedule, getting your dinner, your night's sleep and your breakfast on the return train.

 

[gswager]

I agree with the sleeper berths class (between coach and sleeper class) is on the top of the list, along with extra sleepers, coaches, and diners to replace the scrapped cars over the years.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Rather than reviving the semi-private(green curtain)upper and lower berths, it might be nice to revive the slumbercoach concept, a type of equipment which did last into the Amtrak era. Low cost, small, cheap rooms, but adequate.

One of my favorite types of sleeping space I ever discovered was to travel as a (admittedly somewhat large) single person in a double slumbercoach room. I had all the room I needed at a steal of a price.

 

[gswager]

Are there any pictures of slumbercoach or berth cars so that we, the X-generation, can look at the piece of history we never touch and revive it?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I am not well acquainted with all the kinds of websites which may be out there. But one thought comes to mind, try the VIA(the Canadian railroad) and see what offers to illustrate such accommodations because it still has sections(whether it calls them that or not..

 

[Viewliner]

Well, first, we need more single level cars (Viewliners) as the cars on Single Level Routes are getting old, and don't match like Superliner Trains.

But as to a Superliner III:

-Give Sleepers some sort of window for the upper berth in Sleepers.

-Maybe incorporate the Sightseer Lounge Style windows in the Diner

-Video Screens in the Sleepers and possibly coaches (like in Viewliners).

-Put a toilet/sinks in standard and Family rooms (like in Viewliners), but also keep the "public" ones as well, as some people (two using a standard) may prefer those.

-Try out Slumbercoach Class

 

[seajay]

If I'm allowed to dream...

I agree that there really should be some kind of economical sleeping accomodations between coach and bedroom. I'm not going to say what would be the best-- slumbercoach, roomette, pullman, couchette, etc-- but something to give more people a chance to get at least a little more privacy part of the time would be great.

With this level of sleeping accomodations available, all bedroom types should should then have at least a sink and toilet.

Upgrading video and audio systems in the bedrooms is a great idea. How about in the coach sections? Even the cheapest sections on airplanes get to listen to music and watch movies from their seats.

I think this has been discussed before but I would like to see counter dining available in the dining car. Many solo travelers, myself included, don't always enjoy being forced to sit at a table with three other strangers. While I realize a selling point of train travel for many is the chance to meet new people, everybody isn't like that and can take away from what is otherwise an enjoyable trip. Sure, you may be sitting right next to someone at a counter but that's a little easier than being seated right across from people. I do like the idea of Sightseer Lounge windows in the diner.

seajay

 

[gyuri_ft]

The country used to be full of trains just like that---they were designed with the business traveler in mind......leave the office, go to the station, eat two meals and sleep on the train.....do business the next day....return ,same kind of schedule, getting your dinner, your night's sleep and your breakfast on the return train.

When and what went wrong? Did Amtrak always have such impossible prices? Honestly, a price of $780 for a sleeper is just not realistic. We always can argue that the price of the meals is included - but on the other side, not everyone who is in the sleeper does desire to eat 3 times a day in the diner.

Even than, say, a 3 times/day meals are about $50/person. Yo can put 3 persons in a deluxe. It's $150. An overnight hotel will charge you max. $100. So we have $250 accomodation+meals - very far from the $780.

What the conductors do charge is more realistic.

 

[jccollins]

Okay - where to start? It would be nice to have a car equivalent of the Pacific Parlour Car on all the L.D. train routes.

I like the ides of incorporating video screens with headphones at every seat in coach. Amtrak coach passengers should be treated just as well (if not better) than charter bus passengers, and most charter buses have tv screens to play movies. The headphones at each seat should also have a switch/console to play different types of onboard music for passengers who would rather listen to music than watch the video. I believe they used to have an onboard music system on the Amtrak California San Joaquins quite a while back - but than it disappeared - anyone remember this?

As for the diner, I guess I can see seajay's point of having a counter for solo travelers, although I always (well, almost always) enjoy getting seated with three other people I don't know since it is a great chance to socialize (especially if you are traveling alone, as I often do) and usually the people I have been seated with are a lot of fun. I think the biggest issue here would be designing a counter that wouldn't reduce the seating capacity of the already crowded diners. I know it can be done, though, with a little determination.

Okay, as for the sleepers, I would like to see an entirely new concept developed - install big fluffy fully reclining recliners throughout one entire Superliner car with tv screens installed in the car. Even if the regular coaches do not get tvs this car could be somewhere in the middle between coach and sleepers since each passenger would get their very own window seat in a large over-stuffed recliner. While this is not a bed, I have fallen asleep in my recliner at home while watching tv many times. There are recliners that are really comfortable - these should be installed in a Superliner III and could be sold for about $100 more/passenger ticket. I would definitely choose this option over a regular coach seat and would be willing to travel in the "recliner" class overnight.

 

[gyuri_ft]

More regarding sleepers - the DB (German Rail) just introduced a Superliner-like economy bedroom in a double-deck car. The brreakfast is included in the price. The prece? EUR 20.00 (yes, EUR 20.00 or about $21.00). There is nothing about bullet-train, etc. Just two cheapo beds and free breakfast.

Why, why not here???

 

[sutton8596]

Hi Gyuri,

Any idea the start and destination points for the German train you mentioned that was about twenty dollars? Sounds good to me, though my understanding is that it might be twenty dollars for the upgrade, with railfare added. That has been my experience in Europe.

Hey everyone, though I posted above, I've got a couple more thoughts:

I would skip the TV screens and private toilets. Why? Because if we want things to really change, we have to consider costs. I certainly never watch tv while on a train (or flying for that matter) and if they do have screens, please make passengers (in coach) listen with headphones. I absolutely detest those damned movies shown in the lounge car!! Quality is poor and most donj't care for them anyway. I think they are a negative.

As for toilets, as long as the public ones are plentiful and clean, who cares. I don't need a private one.

Just thoughts.

 

[Amfleet]

I would design the Standard Rooms with the same layout as a Viewliner, but know upper window (it's not worth in my opinion). I would leave the upper level restroom, and keep one downstairs (for Famliy Bedroom). In place of the removed restrooms would be another shower. In the Dining Car I would remove two tables from one side and expand the prep area as some Diners already have the tables removed with flatware compartments put in place. I would like to see the Sightseer Lounge Car with a better layout downstairs. The Coaches are fine, but Smoking Coaches should be better designed not to allow smoke to drift upstairs.

 

[jccollins]

...but Smoking Coaches should be better designed not to allow smoke to drift upstairs.

Yes. The doors on the Superliner smoking coaches are supposed to close automatically when people enter or exit the "death chamber", but I have more than once smelled the smoke upstairs and walked down to find that they had the door propped open so they could breathe in there (there were about ten people in that little room). I immediately pulled the bag out from holding the door open so that it slammed, made a mad/disgusted face at the people, and told the conductor, who didn't really seem to care. Now I just refuse to ride upstairs in a smoking coach, even if it is the coach designated for my destination. I will throw a fit until they move me into another coach where I can breathe.

 

[gyuri_ft]

Hi Gyuri,Any idea the start and destination points for the German train you mentioned that was about twenty dollars? Sounds good to me, though my understanding is that it might be twenty dollars for the upgrade, with railfare added. That has been my experience in Europe.

Hey everyone, though I posted above, I've got a couple more thoughts:

I would skip the TV screens and private toilets. Why? Because if we want things to really change, we have to consider costs. I certainly never watch tv while on a train (or flying for that matter) and if they do have screens, please make passengers (in coach) listen with headphones. I absolutely detest those damned movies shown in the lounge car!! Quality is poor and most donj't care for them anyway. I think they are a negative.

As for toilets, as long as the public ones are plentiful and clean, who cares. I don't need a private one.

Just thoughts.

- Sure, the EUR 20.00 is for the upgrade only. I intentionally used the German rail as example - the sleeper upgrades in many countries cost even less. Besides, so far only Germany introduced a room comparable with the (dis)comfort of the Superliner Standard so I tried to compare apples with apples. To compare a standard 2/3 room in a CIWL or WLAB car with the Superliner Standard is impossible because it looks an feels rather as a smaller deluxe withot the toilet, than the Superliner Standard.

- The only rooms I think should have toilets are the family (because small kids can find them easier) or the accessible rooms. Unfortunately the family room does not have it. Even in a deluxe it is not necessary.

- In East Europe and in China some deluxe compartment have a shared bathroom. The idea is, that two cabins cn share one. Once you enter it, the opposite side locks. This is IMHO acceptable and so they enlarge the room that extra luggage fits and the chair is better. The bathroom does not have the toilet. There are 16 or 18 persons in such car and two toilets. Normally it works out fine during a 6-day trip, nobody complains.

Now these trains are about to be canceled and the border will be closed for good (just got the news from the ticket office in Moscow). Who travels now, can "enjoy" an empty sleeper for himself and the attendant only. Who would think it will ever happen...

 

[Guest_jdwolfskill]

Here's my two-cents. Why not turn back the clock prior to about 1975. Take a look at the great "Slumbercoaches" that used to be attached to the Broadway Limited, and other long distance trains. Almost the first thing AMTRAK did was to take them out of service because the bean counters wanted to produce more revenue from the sleeping cars. Back then I could ride in a slumbercoach from PHL to CHI with a private toilet, fold down bed, and wash basin for $35-40 extra fare. That's what AMTRAK needs today to boost ridership. We don't travel by train anymore because it's too expensive, uncomfortable and inconvenient. Also, lose the sleeping car attendants. They never help you anyway, except to growl at you when you don't quite understand all the rules. And I don't mind buying my own meals, thanks. Make the Superliner III accomodations (swipe-card) self-service, with perhaps a single attendant for several cars (a Super-8 on wheels).

 

[tp49]

Are we only talking sleepers or coaches too?

 

[rail sale]

Okay, as for the sleepers, I would like to see an entirely new concept developed - install big fluffy fully reclining recliners throughout one entire Superliner car with tv screens installed in the car.  Even if the regular coaches do not get tvs this car could be somewhere in the middle between coach and sleepers since each passenger would get their very own window seat in a large over-stuffed recliner.  While this is not a bed, I have fallen asleep in my recliner at home while watching tv many times.  There are recliners that are really comfortable - these should be installed in a Superliner III and could be sold for about $100 more/passenger ticket.  I would definitely choose this option over a regular coach seat and would be willing to travel in the "recliner" class overnight.

This sort of thing seems the way to go, I'm not convinced that slumbercoaches or some kind of open berth are necessary today. At the time berths were necessary, people were not accustom to flying around on 18-hour flights in an open cabin. I doubt people necessarily want to spend an entire trip in a funky phone booth with a bed, nor lay down under the covers with 90 of their closest friends. There is a very fine line psychologically between sleeping in public in a bed and sleeping in a chair, it might take a lot of study to figure it out. I've said it before lay flat seats might be the best option for profitable long distance coach operation. But, this is only a guess, Amtrak really needs some good user research to understand what the base requirements for travelers are.

Additionally team it up with some sharp "red-eye" scheduling (e.g. Chicago to Denver or the Federal) and you could convince passengers that they are not wasting time but rather saving a night in a hotel.

Don't get me wrong, first class is important, but right now we have a rolling example of a rather familiar national economic plan embodied in first class for a few and steerage for the rest.

 

[sutton8596]

look at the popularity of the berths on Viarail! They are sold out months in advance (except this summer cuz of Sars).

 

[gyuri_ft]

One of the most ingenious sleeper concepts is the French T2. They sleep 36(!) people in 2-bed rooms and these rooms are not nearly as cramped, as the economy ones in the U.S. They do offer more privacy, than the standard sleepers in East Europe/Asia because in later the 36-sleeping cars have nine compartments with four beds, not 18 compartments with two beds. http://www.seat61.com/France.htm

IMHO the FRENCH T2 is the way to go. (Do not confuse the French T2 with other European T2 - the French is far superior for the same price!)

 

[seajay]

We don't travel by train anymore because it's too expensive, uncomfortable and inconvenient. Also, lose the sleeping car attendants. They never help you anyway, except to growl at you when you don't quite understand all the rules. And I don't mind buying my own meals, thanks. Make the Superliner III accomodations (swipe-card) self-service, with perhaps a single attendant for several cars (a Super-8 on wheels).

I would agree with a lot of what you are saying. While I understand the need for some kind of attendent for some people at various times, I know I have little to no use for one most of the time. On my last long-distance trip on the California Zephyr, the attendent was never anywhere to be found, anyway. I was able to get my bed ready by myself without any problem. Keeping juice, water, and coffee stocked was nice but certainly wasn't a necessity. I wouldn't have missed them.

I wouldn't mind buying my own meals, either. Normally, I don't need or even desire to eat three full dining car meals every day and would gladly take a reduction in the fare to eliminate that perk.

I guess what this all boils down to is a desire to have a wider choice of available private accomodations and services. I know a lot of people appreciate and enjoy a lot of personal services and amenities. But, the main reason I want a sleeping car accomodation is for the private, personal space it offers. Meeting people on the train is great but I like to have my very own little hidey-hole when I want it. It doesn't have to be fancy.

seajay