Huge News from Virginia

[west point]

Seaboard: That floodwall gates restriction is very important. Completely forgot that they were there. It is too bad that the track cannot be raised above the James River and still serve RVM ?

 

[Steve4031]

I’m trying to figure out what the Franconia-Springfield flyover will accomplish. I looked on a map and I don’t see any junction in that area. The Norfolk southern junction is already grade separated iirc.

 

[Ryan]

From the article linked in the first post:

Under the plan, Virginia will build and own separate tracks for passenger service between Alexandria and L’Enfant Station in Washington. It also will build a rail bypass or flyover near Springfield and Franconia to allow passenger trains to cross from the east side of the rail line to the west to cross the new Long Bridge.

 

[Steve4031]

From the article linked in the first post:

Ryan, I missed that. Thank you for the clarification. This entire project is great news.

 

[Steve4031]

From the article linked in the first post:

Thank you. I missed this the first time I read it. This is great progress for Virginia.

 

[neroden]

Virginia is acquiring the ex RF&P RoW between Wshington DC and Richmond from CSX. In addition, it is acquiring what appears to be open passenger train rights between Richmond and Petersburg, Doswell to Clifton Forge on BBRR and the S-Line between Petersburg to the border of NC.

Looked to me like they were buying the S-Line and the BBBR from Doswell to Clifton Forge outright (fee simple title and everything), actually.

This should change the entire shape of passenger rail in Virginia. The whole deal gets e executed by the end of 2020! overall it is $3.6 billion agreement to which Amtrak will contribute a tad over $900 million.

It is big news.

Now, can we get NY State and Amtrak to buy the line from Schenectady to Niagara Falls? Pretty Please?

 

[neroden]

CSX used the BBRR exclusively for empty coal car trains. There seem to have been fewer in recent months - I live 50 yards away. Wonder what this means. Those coal fired plants aren't going away any time soon.

....actually, those coal fired power plants are going away extremely soon.

I have been following the end of coal-burning power in the United States quite closely. I suppose you didn't know this, but essentially all coal power plants are economically non-viable now -- it is cheaper to build a whole lot of solar farms and wind farms and a few natural gas turbines and batteries than it is to operate the existing coal power plants. The coal power plants are dropping like flies, closing by the dozens every year.

West Virginia just (in June) gave a taxpayer-subsidized bailout to the Pleasants coal power station (suspending the rules to rush the bailout) and it's expected by experts to go bankrupt anyway.

The coal mining companies are now into their second round of bankruptcies; having tossed their debt in the first round, they still can't make a profit, so now they're actually closing mines. Coal prices can't go down without shutting down mines (which brings coal prices back up), and the power stations are uncompetitive at *current* coal prices... so that's the end of coal burning power.

It's just a matter of how long the companies operating the coal power plants want to bleed money; eventually they will decide to stop bleeding money and shut down the coal power plants. Several large utilities have already made the decision to shut *all* coal power plants on an orderly basis; all the rest will follow.

This is the underlying reason why the entire route of the Cardinal through West Virginia is up for abandonment or spinoff by CSX -- coal traffic is dying, and CSX is noticing. If we want to retain the Cardinal, Amtrak or a state or local government will have to buy the route through West Virginia, and *quickly*. On the plus side, it'll basically be a passenger-only line at that point!

 

[neroden]

Looks like all trains including the Star, Meteor, and Palmetto would stop at Richmond Main Street which means the line around the city would no longer carry passengers unless the Auto Train continued to use it. What would the plan be for the S line? If they moved the Auto Train and Silver Service on to a rebuilt S line how does it continue south once it gets to North Carolina - or would this likely be for some future service? Forgive my ignorance for where all these lines go.

The Southeast High Speed Rail plan, which has been around since, oh, the early 2000s I think, uses the S line to express from Petersburg to Raleigh, following which it continues on the route of the Piedmont/Carolinian. The plan, IIRC, is to retain the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Palmetto and Auto Train on their current routes while moving the Carolinian to the new line (and adding something like six frequencies per day on the Carolinian). Of course plans can change. But google SEHSR if you want to know more.

It actually seems likely to me that the Star would change routes to the new line, but that would remove Rocky Mount to Raleigh service. Moving the Carolinian would lose service from Wilson and Selma to Raleigh, but that has been the plan all along (the Carolinian is supposed to be part of the SEHSR scheme). I have no doubt that once the S line is rebuilt, there will be long discussions about how to serve Selma, Wilson, and Rocky Mount. It might make the most sense to extend a Piedmont frequency east of Raleigh to Rocky Mount while relocating the Carolinian and the Star to the S line.

 

[neroden]

From the article linked in the first post:

Super helpful. So the passenger tracks will be on the west side of the ROW from Franconia/Springfield north, and on the east side of the ROW from Franconia/Springfield south... to Ashland, which is explicitly specified to keep only two tracks through town. Probably on the east side from Ashland to Richmond as well. Then when the S line is rebuilt, it has to cross over the freight routes from the east side to the west side in the vicinity of Petersburg, too (though not for Newport News or Norfolk service).

 

[Anderson]

I know a lot of attention is focused on the WV end of the line (Clifton Forge-Huntington). I think the bigger part of the story is that this seriously opens up Newport News-Richmond for being spun off, which would in turn take a lot of hassle out of expanding service on the Peninsula (i.e. opening up the door to several of those Richmond-terminating trains in the plan going into Newport News instead without requiring arm-and-leg investments, running commuter service on the line, or adding a stop at Busch Gardens on a limited/seasonal basis).

 

[neroden]

I know a lot of attention is focused on the WV end of the line (Clifton Forge-Huntington). I think the bigger part of the story is that this seriously opens up Newport News-Richmond for being spun off, which would in turn take a lot of hassle out of expanding service on the Peninsula (i.e. opening up the door to several of those Richmond-terminating trains in the plan going into Newport News instead without requiring arm-and-leg investments, running commuter service on the line, or adding a stop at Busch Gardens on a limited/seasonal basis).

I'm not sure why Newport News to Richmond *wasn't* included in this deal, actually.

 

[Anderson]

I'm not sure why Newport News to Richmond *wasn't* included in this deal, actually.

Because it wasn't part of the BBRR situation. Remember, CSX leased Richmond-Clifton Forge to the BBRR. What's particularly confusing to me is that Richmond-Doswell on the ex-C&O (basically RVM up to the Doswell crossing) wasn't included since it was part of the BBRR lease.

(Edit: It also wasn't legally part of the RF&P, and it wasn't abandoned. The situation was closer to the Richmond-Petersburg chunk, though why the Peninsula line wasn't at least loaded in there with expanded operating rights makes even less sense. At least PTB-NFK can be blamed on that, well, being an NS line.)

 

[AGM.12]

While coal may be a shadow of its former self, intermodal could very well fill some of that void since the Hampton Roads ports are quite busy and will become even more so, so the peninsula sub will remain active.

 

[Anderson]

While coal may be a shadow of its former self, intermodal could very well fill some of that void since the Hampton Roads ports are quite busy and will become even more so, so the peninsula sub will remain active.

That is certainly true, though it would require repurposing the Newport News piers. Somewhat more likely (at least in the short term) is CSX running intermodal stuff down into NC and then back up to the Norfolk side.

 

[user 13416]

The coal mining companies are now into their second round of bankruptcies; having tossed their debt in the first round, they still can't make a profit, so now they're actually closing mines. Coal prices can't go down without shutting down mines (which brings coal prices back up), and the power stations are uncompetitive at *current* coal prices... so that's the end of coal burning power.

It's just a matter of how long the companies operating the coal power plants want to bleed money; eventually they will decide to stop bleeding money and shut down the coal power plants. Several large utilities have already made the decision to shut *all* coal power plants on an orderly basis; all the rest will follow.

This was the driving force behind Dominion fighting for years to build new transmission line towers over the James River from Surry to James City County, so they could shut down the Yorktown coal plant. That was finally done earlier this year, the Yorktown plant shut down permanently and the Surry Nuclear Power Station is providing juice to the northwestern end of the Peninsula grid.

 

[me_little_me]

CSXT has an alternative route, BBRR was leased out with a minimum overhead traffic levels from CSXT. Also useage of coal is dry up, even with out environment regulations. Coal is expensive to mine, expensive to transport, expensive to burn, never mind the stuff coming out of the stack. Big changes occurring in the power generation business currently.

Also possible that CSX would get trackage rights to run in off hours?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Pretty sure CSXT not give up there say on who transport freight on these lines. No Norfolk Southern trains will be polishing these rails.

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

Here's hoping the tracks between DC can be rebuild, modernized and even electrified.

 

[snvboy]

I'm very excited about the possibility of an east/west Staunton - Charlottesville - Richmond - Williamsburg - Tidewater service.

 

[user 14106]

Also possible that CSX would get trackage rights to run in off hours?

Probably more than rights. They will probably retain some type of common carrier freight easement over the line as a condition of the sale meaning which gives them ownership like rights as far as running freight on the line. Exactly how much freight they could still run would have to be negotiated with the state.

 

[Anderson]

I'm very excited about the possibility of an east/west Staunton - Charlottesville - Richmond - Williamsburg - Tidewater service.

The main thrust is likely to be southwards (to Lynchburg/Roanoke) instead of west at Charlottesville. That being said, since they do have tracks all the way to Clifton Forge there's always a chance that NS decides to be intransigent and VA decides that using the yard at Clifton Forge makes more sense (or that WV and CSX come to an agreement of some sort to run a train or two on that line in exchange for WV backing off on the Daily Cardinal).

 

[bretton88]

Probably more than rights. They will probably retain some type of common carrier freight easement over the line as a condition of the sale meaning which gives them ownership like rights as far as running freight on the line. Exactly how much freight they could still run would have to be negotiated with the state.

The common carrier freight rights is almost what derailed Caltrains electrification. UP resisted quite a bit, despite having no ownership. Eventually UP got some concessions and relented. CSX seems to be more in the mode of "we're washing our hands of these lines." Hopefully Virginia negotiated this out with CSX.

 

[Palmland]

Let’s not be too quick to pronounce coal dead. While U.S. utility coal is dying fast, export coal (to places like India and China) is still reasonably healthy. That means coal trains to Newport News (CSX) and Norfolk (NS) will continue for foreseeable future.

CSX has been routing loaded coal trains via the James River line (no grades) Clifton Forge to Richmond. Empty have been returning via the BB RR. With this recent news maybe there is sufficient capacity now to move everything via the James River and let VA DOT work with the BB on passenger and local freight traffic. But coal traffic will continue to be a factor East of Richmond and Petersburg.

 

[AGM.12]

Some have suggested that export coal traffic to the Hampton Roads ports be consolidated to either Newport News or Lamberts Point in Norfolk. If the latter, this could open up more possibilities on the Peninsula sub.

 

[neroden]

Let’s not be too quick to pronounce coal dead. While U.S. utility coal is dying fast, export coal (to places like India and China) is still reasonably healthy. That means coal trains to Newport News (CSX) and Norfolk (NS) will continue for foreseeable future.

CSX has been routing loaded coal trains via the James River line (no grades) Clifton Forge to Richmond. Empty have been returning via the BB RR. With this recent news maybe there is sufficient capacity now to move everything via the James River and let VA DOT work with the BB on passenger and local freight traffic. But coal traffic will continue to be a factor East of Richmond and Petersburg.

Export of thermal coal is dying too. It is official policy in both India and China to end coal imports. Furthermore, export to Asia from the east coast is not commercially viable.

China does keep building coal power plants but is is for stupid reasons related to kickbacks from construction contractors, and many are not even operating, India stopped building them, as has nearly everyone else, and is now figuring out what order to shut them down in.