Hurricane Sandy and Amtrak.
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And of course in a sign of both normalcy in the sense that things are going back to normal, but also a sign of idiocy, I just monitored a call from a train requesting to go out of service because some clown decided to spray paint graffiti in one car of the subway consist. 
We already don't have enough service on our trains, and now one has to go out of service because of an *****!
We already don't have enough service on our trains, and now one has to go out of service because of an *****!
T
Travis
Guest
"Other plans, full and modified service, for Saturday, November 3 and Sunday, November 4:
Cardinal (Train 50) will operate normally between Chicago and New York"
What about train 51?? That's the one that goes from NYP to Chicago on Sunday, November 4. They don't mention it at all. How do we figure out if it's running? Why did their release omit it?
Cardinal (Train 50) will operate normally between Chicago and New York"
What about train 51?? That's the one that goes from NYP to Chicago on Sunday, November 4. They don't mention it at all. How do we figure out if it's running? Why did their release omit it?
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
I would think it is running, but I'd call the 800 number and ask. The omittance was probably an oversight considering all the chaos brought on by Sandy and her aftermath.
BTW - According to another thread in this topic area, 50 will not have the Great Dome on it. That thread reported The Dome was having a mechanical problems.
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another video from the MTA from yesterday showing the incredible damage that the South Ferry station on the #1 line suffered from the flooding. Flooding so bad and forceful that it bent railings and pulled down walls and stuff. And the station still isn't even dry yet, they're still busy pumping things out before they can even start to think of repairing the damage.
Three days of pumping and they've still got water!
Three days of pumping and they've still got water!
NE933
Conductor
Howdeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyy!!! What a week. My area of Queens, NY has very poor internet, cellphones came back yesterday but can go out a moments notice. TV breaks up, am/fm radio the only working electronic. My folks at Lower Manhattan just got back power yesterday, their internet is very good and what i'm using now.
A major subway recovery was the return of 4,5,6 east side trains all the way to lower Manhattan, where the last couple days went only as far as 34th street, forcing a 4 mile walk roundtrip. Buses were jammed and the soure of delays and fights similar to the lines at gas stations, truly apocolyptic hearing people screaming they need to get to doctor or to see their children. Never saw this live, with my own eyes and ears before.
If you're familiar with NYC Subways, the N was the fastest because it interchanges with only one other line, which was not working, making ffor fast handlng and turnounds at 34th st, no conflicts when trains switch from one side, cross two express tracks and reverse. The F, M, D, and Q was another story: two of these join at an interlocking at 47th/Rockefeller, just two stations away, which overwhelmed 34th's ability to serve as a terminal and cross over trains to turn them around, i quickly found out yestrday when my jam packed M train was stuck under the East river, for 45 minutes, in a place that was under water a day earlier. I was praying not to go like this, if you know what i mean. People start looking at each other with the sense if the end is coming we want to know who we went with. That's what happened in the World Trade Towers on 9/11.
Todays much better, though far from finished. The South Ferry #1 station video is amazing, what a shame it was damaged like that after all the years of work. PATH is still out because the World Trade Center site still has voids that provided an easy way for the Hudson river to get in, still very much a hole in the ground with new buildings under construction. Also, I suspect the MTA's two tunnel projects (2nd Ave and East Side access) inadvertendly served as entry points for much of the flooding. Excited to learn about Amtrak borrowing cars from Canada, surprised NJT fleet is 25%down from water, guess it was the Meadowlands Complex getting a rare visit from the Hackensack River?
Ok, i hope all of you have what you need and are well and healthy, and thank you for your prayers and support. Love and Godspeed,
NE933 (Robert)
A major subway recovery was the return of 4,5,6 east side trains all the way to lower Manhattan, where the last couple days went only as far as 34th street, forcing a 4 mile walk roundtrip. Buses were jammed and the soure of delays and fights similar to the lines at gas stations, truly apocolyptic hearing people screaming they need to get to doctor or to see their children. Never saw this live, with my own eyes and ears before.
If you're familiar with NYC Subways, the N was the fastest because it interchanges with only one other line, which was not working, making ffor fast handlng and turnounds at 34th st, no conflicts when trains switch from one side, cross two express tracks and reverse. The F, M, D, and Q was another story: two of these join at an interlocking at 47th/Rockefeller, just two stations away, which overwhelmed 34th's ability to serve as a terminal and cross over trains to turn them around, i quickly found out yestrday when my jam packed M train was stuck under the East river, for 45 minutes, in a place that was under water a day earlier. I was praying not to go like this, if you know what i mean. People start looking at each other with the sense if the end is coming we want to know who we went with. That's what happened in the World Trade Towers on 9/11.
Todays much better, though far from finished. The South Ferry #1 station video is amazing, what a shame it was damaged like that after all the years of work. PATH is still out because the World Trade Center site still has voids that provided an easy way for the Hudson river to get in, still very much a hole in the ground with new buildings under construction. Also, I suspect the MTA's two tunnel projects (2nd Ave and East Side access) inadvertendly served as entry points for much of the flooding. Excited to learn about Amtrak borrowing cars from Canada, surprised NJT fleet is 25%down from water, guess it was the Meadowlands Complex getting a rare visit from the Hackensack River?
Ok, i hope all of you have what you need and are well and healthy, and thank you for your prayers and support. Love and Godspeed,
NE933 (Robert)
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Nathanael
Guest
PATH flooding came from the New Jersey end too; Hoboken flooded quite dramatically.
2nd Ave Subway is confirmed to have NO flooding, though the flood waters were only about a foot short of it. East Side Access also seems to be OK; I don't know if it has *no* flooding, but no significant flooding. The #7 line extension is also fine. I haven't heard about Fulton St, but the 4/5 are running right through it so it can't be very bad. (Apparently the power is still out there, though.)
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Nathanael
Guest
This is not quite true. The storm surge made it into zone 2. It only seems to have made it a small distance into zone 2, but there are photos of small amounts of flooding in zone 2 areas.
This is due to the exceptionally high surge, the same reason why various temporary floodwalls were overtopped, including the one around the 14th St substation which took down power in most of Lower Manhattan, and the ones protecting the North (Hudson) River Tunnels, and the East River Tunnels.
However, it looks to me (I could be wrong) as if Amtrak moved its equipment out of the zone 2 part of Sunnyside entirely, leaving equipment only in zone 3.
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Nathanael
Guest
Amtrak has issued several more confusing and conflicting service alerts. It's pretty clear that nearly everything which is not running on the NYC-Albany line will be running, although there will be reduced NE Regional and Acela service. However, I was unclear as to what service will be running on the Albany-NYC line, as two alerts have contradictory information. And of course there's no published schedule.
So I tried the booking website. On Sunday, it appears:
- the LSL is still running Boston-NY only
- the Maple Leaf is running all the way in both directions
- the Adirondack is running northbound onlys (presumably the southbound starts on Monday)
- there is one additional Empire Service train each way (# 283 north / 288 south) running to Niagara Falls
- there are three additional Empire Service trains running south from NY to Albany (#254, 238, 244)
- there are three additional Empire Service trains running north from NY to Albany (#258, 261, and special #1049)
- the Ethan Allen Express is not running
The booking website suggests connecting from #1049 to the westbound LSL (ah, now I see why it's called #1049, it's shadowing the LSL schedule), and from the eastbound LSL to #244.
Clearing up another unclear point, the booking website says #51 (the Cardinal) is running out of NY on Sunday.
So I tried the booking website. On Sunday, it appears:
- the LSL is still running Boston-NY only
- the Maple Leaf is running all the way in both directions
- the Adirondack is running northbound onlys (presumably the southbound starts on Monday)
- there is one additional Empire Service train each way (# 283 north / 288 south) running to Niagara Falls
- there are three additional Empire Service trains running south from NY to Albany (#254, 238, 244)
- there are three additional Empire Service trains running north from NY to Albany (#258, 261, and special #1049)
- the Ethan Allen Express is not running
The booking website suggests connecting from #1049 to the westbound LSL (ah, now I see why it's called #1049, it's shadowing the LSL schedule), and from the eastbound LSL to #244.
Clearing up another unclear point, the booking website says #51 (the Cardinal) is running out of NY on Sunday.
First, the Q train is not running. So they were only turning 3 trains at 34th Street.
Second, the interlocking there can easily handle that with the trains running on 10 minute headways. The locals can be turned on either the downtown plat or the uptown plat. The D Express can be turned on either the uptown or downtown plat.
Any delay would have been do to a problem with a train laying down, not congestion at 34th Street. While it's not an ideal terminus, 34th can handle the volume being sent at it. That's why the trains are on 10 minute headways.
Second Avenue couldn't serve as an entry point for the flooding as it's not fully connected yet to the rest of the system to my knowledge. As for East side Access, if it served as a point, then it must have happened on the Manhattan side, as if it had been on the Queens side then Amtrak's equipment would have been damaged too as the water would have needed to flow into Sunnyside yard.
East Side Access shares the same tunnel as the 63rd Street subway line that the F & M are currently using. And EAS is on the lower level of the tunnel. Can't have flooding on the upper level without having it on the lower level. Of course that may well be why the F line went back into service more quickly is because the bulk of the water went downstairs and not upstairs.
That substation only took out about 1/2 or less of lower Manhattan. The rest was deliberately shut down by ConEd to protect the system from the type of damage suffered at the substation that blew.
There were no barriers actually protecting the tunnels. The LIRR installed a barrier between 9th & 10th Ave's to stop flooding from the West End yard, which was expected, from flowing into the North River tunnels. That barrier was over-topped for about an hour or two causing the flooding in the North River tunnels.
And no barriers were installed on the East River tunnels in part because there really is no way to install a barrier there and in part because flooding was not expected to reach them. From what I've seen, the Line 4 tunnel (the normal inbound track used by the LIRR) took the brunt of the damage, as it's the one mouth that is within the Zone A or 1 area. The Line 2 tunnel shown in the video is the normal Amtrak inbound tunnel and it only suffered minor flooding. It's mouth is within the Zone B or 2 area, but just barely.
That's not possible. All tracks in what's left of the original Sunnyside yard and currently used by Amtrak and NJT are at least partially within Zone 2, although all are within the highest part of Zone 2. The lowest numbered tracks are almost fully within Zone 2 while the highest numbered tracks have about 2/3rds of the track in Zone 3.However, it looks to me (I could be wrong) as if Amtrak moved its equipment out of the zone 2 part of Sunnyside entirely, leaving equipment only in zone 3.
However, had water reached any part of the yard, then it would have taken out the Line 1 & Line 3 tunnels too, the normal Queens bound tunnels. Those two tunnels did not flood, ergo water could not have reached the yard at all.
Now it is possible that the LIRR took some water damage at the relatively new Arch Street shops on the other side of the #7 line, but I haven't heard anything about that either. It's also possible that the portal for the #7 line and it's walls, along with the Line 2 & Line 4 tunnels protected the Arch Street yard from any serious flooding.
Ps. Even if the Q was running, the Q runs on the Broadway line, not the 6th Avenue line.
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Nathanael
Guest
Incidentally, NJ Transit couldn't run the trains they'd previously announced, except on the NEC, because their dispatching center had lost power again. They're going to reintroduce some service on the other previously announced lines on Sunday morning (assuming there's no new trouble with the dispatching center). They're also planning to bring back service on the "Main" and Port Jervis Lines (terminating at Secaucus), and the Atlantic City Line. Still a huge amount out of service.
I'm very impressed by how fast Metro-North got the Hudson and New Haven lines back. That's what allowed such a fast resumption of service north of New York by Amtrak. They expect to have everything except the New Canaan branch back by Monday. LIRR expects to have service back everywhere except the Long Beach branch and the far ends of the Montauk and Ronkonkoma lines by Monday. NYC Subway is expecting to have all the East River bridges and tunnels running on Monday if power is available. The train service outages seem like they're lasting longer in New Jersey than in New York.
I'm very impressed by how fast Metro-North got the Hudson and New Haven lines back. That's what allowed such a fast resumption of service north of New York by Amtrak. They expect to have everything except the New Canaan branch back by Monday. LIRR expects to have service back everywhere except the Long Beach branch and the far ends of the Montauk and Ronkonkoma lines by Monday. NYC Subway is expecting to have all the East River bridges and tunnels running on Monday if power is available. The train service outages seem like they're lasting longer in New Jersey than in New York.
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Nathanael
Guest
I don't know for sure, but the impression I got was that the 63rd St tunnel wasn't flooded at all (and neither was the 59th St tunnel).
N
Nathanael
Guest
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.
Thanks for the explanation.That's not possible. All tracks in what's left of the original Sunnyside yard and currently used by Amtrak and NJT are at least partially within Zone 2, although all are within the highest part of Zone 2. The lowest numbered tracks are almost fully within Zone 2 while the highest numbered tracks have about 2/3rds of the track in Zone 3.However, it looks to me (I could be wrong) as if Amtrak moved its equipment out of the zone 2 part of Sunnyside entirely, leaving equipment only in zone 3.
Do we have certain information that they didn't flood? Last I heard the East River traffic was running with two tunnels, and that was after one tunnel had been announced as being unwatered -- though there could have been some confusion. Of course, three tunnels could still have flooded without any significant amount of water in the yard.
And just to be clear, even on the Main/PJ line it's not normal service, but very limited service that they're bring back. Only the AC line is going to run normal on Monday.
Yes, MN did an amazing job considering the damage that they had. They'll be running near normal schedules, which maybe only a couple of trains cancelled.
Note, the LIRR is not restoring normal service however. All of the above is a modified service from the normal, which will almost certainly make for some very crowded trains on Monday. I still think that they've done a good job, but either their damage was worse than MN's or they didn't do as good of a job. And I don't think that their damage was worse, although I do allow that the LIRR has got more track to deal with.
Actually the Cranberry Street tunnels may not even be fully dry until late Monday, and then they've got to get in there and wash things down, replace that which needs replacing before they can even think about running test trains & restoring service. Unless the pumping goes faster than Ray Lhota indicated earlier today, I don't think that we'll see the A & C line operating come Monday.
We should see the Clark Street tunnels carrying the 2/3 trains go back into operation late tonight/early tomorrow morning. The Montague tunnels carrying the R should be restored at some point tomorrow or early Monday morning, but I strongly suspect that trains will be skipping the first stop in Manhattan, Whitehall Street as that ties into the badly flooded South Ferry Station on the #1.
The Rutgers Street tunnels carrying the F were supposed to already be back in service by this time, but so far there is no indication that service has been restored. And of course the bridges should be restored very soon. In fact, the J train started running across the Williamsburg Bridge to the first stop at Essex Street around 6:30 PM, only to be cut back to Brooklyn again when switches at Essex Street failed.
Yes, Amtrak only had 2 of the 4 tunnels flood. Had there not been other problems preventing it, they would have been able to restore limited LIRR & Amtrak service with the two tunnels; Line 1 & Line 3. It wouldn't have been pretty, but it would have worked.
I know that they dewatered 1 tunnel, I'm assuming the Line 4 tunnel. I'm not sure about the Line 2 tunnel's status. It could be part of the reason for the limited schedule that the LIRR is running on Monday if they don't expect to have the Line 4 tunnel back in service.
By the way, as I write this post, I realized that I sort reversed things in my earlier post. It's the Line 2 tunnel, or normal Amtrak inbound tunnel, that sees its portal lying in the Zone 1 flood area and therefore it suffered the worst flooding. The Line 4 tunnel, normal LIRR tunnel, has its portal just inside the Zone 2 line. The other two tunnels are maybe another 30 feet, give or take, further east into the Zone 2 flood plane.
Actually, I believe you are correct. I wasn't even really thinking about it when NE993 mentioned being in the tunnel that had flooded and was just working from that. But they reported that 7 subway tunnels under the East River took water. There are 9 tunnels, which would logically leave the 63rd Street tunnel and the 59th Street tunnels as the ones that remained dry. Hence part of the reason that the services using those tunnels resumed so quickly.
An interesting side note to all of this is the fact that the N trains currently running through the 59th Street tunnel are all coming out of the Jamaica Yard on the Queens Blvd line. Normally the N & Q are staged out of the Coney Island yard, but there is no way to get trains from that yard to the cutoff Broadway line. And with only the F & M running on the Queens Blvd line, the Jamaica Yard has plenty of trains to spare right now for the N.
N
Nathanael
Guest
A key tweet from the MTA tells us why so much of the subway is still out:
"Unforeseen problems w/electrical svc and unexpected track work at the W.4 St have slowed the timetable for subway restorations."
This is presumably why the J was terminating at Essex Street (and now cut back to Brooklyn) and why the Manhattan Bridge lines aren't back in service.
It really sounds to me as if when the electrical service problems get resolved, a whole lot of stuff should come up at once. I don't think the pumping is actually the limiting factor for the subways at the moment; the pumping seems to be running well ahead of the electrical service. Though I'd love to know what the "unexpected track work at W 4 St" is.
"Unforeseen problems w/electrical svc and unexpected track work at the W.4 St have slowed the timetable for subway restorations."
This is presumably why the J was terminating at Essex Street (and now cut back to Brooklyn) and why the Manhattan Bridge lines aren't back in service.
It really sounds to me as if when the electrical service problems get resolved, a whole lot of stuff should come up at once. I don't think the pumping is actually the limiting factor for the subways at the moment; the pumping seems to be running well ahead of the electrical service. Though I'd love to know what the "unexpected track work at W 4 St" is.
Yes, that would explain the failure to restore the D & F over almost there entire runs, as well as the M from Jamaica to Middle Village, which was promised for this afternoon.
Nope, the J got cut back to Brooklyn due to switch problems at Essex. However, service has resumed to Essex Street again as of around 11:30 PM.
Agreed, power is the big problem here right now. But again the Cranberry tunnels are lagging way behind on pumping and of course the South Ferry station on the #1 is still being pumped out. And then it'll probably need a couple months work to fix all the damage to that almost brand new station.
I'm not sure about the status of the 53rd Street tunnel either as I've heard nothing on that. However, the fact that the M runs through the 63rd Street tunnel would seem to indicate that they have some problems to still deal with on the 53rd Street tunnel. I understand why they wouldn't run the E through there, and that's simply because it would be impossible to turn it at 34th Street.
Just to update things a bit since this conversation:
He indicated that there is also still no status on restoring the 14th Street tunnels that carry the L train. He indicated that these are two of the deepest tunnels that they have and that they took on considerable water. It's unclear if they're dry or if they're still pumping.
Also the South Ferry station is now reported dry; but it's a long ways away from supporting train service.
The F train is now running through from Queens to Avenue X, however due to the ongoing problems at West 4th, they continue to turn the M at 34th Street.
Still no word on the 53rd Street tunnel's status. At a recent update MTA Chairman Lhota said that Cranbury (A & C) is dry now, but it is still not determined if it will be back in service for Monday morning. The Montague tunnel that carries the R will NOT be back in service for Monday as it was flooded from end to end and is still being pumped out. It's also not considered critical as this tunnel only serves the R line and there are alternatives to that line.Agreed, power is the big problem here right now. But again the Cranberry tunnels are lagging way behind on pumping and of course the South Ferry station on the #1 is still being pumped out. And then it'll probably need a couple months work to fix all the damage to that almost brand new station.
I'm not sure about the status of the 53rd Street tunnel either as I've heard nothing on that. However, the fact that the M runs through the 63rd Street tunnel would seem to indicate that they have some problems to still deal with on the 53rd Street tunnel. I understand why they wouldn't run the E through there, and that's simply because it would be impossible to turn it at 34th Street.
He indicated that there is also still no status on restoring the 14th Street tunnels that carry the L train. He indicated that these are two of the deepest tunnels that they have and that they took on considerable water. It's unclear if they're dry or if they're still pumping.
Also the South Ferry station is now reported dry; but it's a long ways away from supporting train service.
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Nathanael
Guest
Yes, that would explain the failure to restore the D & F over almost there entire runs, as well as the M from Jamaica to Middle Village, which was promised for this afternoon.
Nope, the J got cut back to Brooklyn due to switch problems at Essex. However, service has resumed to Essex Street again as of around 11:30 PM.
Agreed, power is the big problem here right now. But again the Cranberry tunnels are lagging way behind on pumping and of course the South Ferry station on the #1 is still being pumped out. And then it'll probably need a couple months work to fix all the damage to that almost brand new station.
I'm not sure about the status of the 53rd Street tunnel either as I've heard nothing on that. However, the fact that the M runs through the 63rd Street tunnel would seem to indicate that they have some problems to still deal with on the 53rd Street tunnel. I understand why they wouldn't run the E through there, and that's simply because it would be impossible to turn it at 34th Street.
According to photos, they've been pumping it. Don't know if they finished yet.
The 63rd St and 53rd St tunnels are practically redundant, apart from a couple of stops; even E service is redundant with a combination of other lines (F/D/A). I suspect that the MTA has simply been focusing its inspections and repairs on the tunnels which are *not* redundant. The time of the inspectors and switch maintainers and electrical maintainers is in high demand, no doubt. There may be nothing seriously wrong with the 53rd St. tunnel, and it would still make sense not to start using it until the inspectors and maintainers have repaired all the *non-redundant* tunnels.
This does indicate the value of redundancy. The situation with the R is similar; while they want to pump the water out quickly (because the longer the saltwater sits, the more damage is done), once they've pumped out the water they'll probably focus on less-redundant lines.
The L is really worrisome. The L is certainly not dry yet. There's hints that the G is being pumped out (people are hearing work trains running under the street). After restoring Q, and A service (and probably N to 59th St Brooklyn and
R "via bridge") I'd expect that the MTA would be focusing on getting Coney Island and its yards working again, since it will be hard to support full service without the yard space. Then we might see the G come back. The L... well, along with South Ferry station and the Rockaways branches, the L is probably going to take the longest to recover. I haven't heard how far east and west it flooded, but it could be a very long way.
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