11 PM update
This is going to be a nightmare
This is going to be a nightmare
I-95 collapse effect on SEPTA and Amtrak
- Thread starter Metra Electric Rider
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Septa9739
Lead Service Attendant
@west point I don’t know how many extra cars SEPTA has exactly, but given that the yards don’t empty out at rush hour any more, I would guess a couple dozen. The AEM-7‘s were so dead when they retired, people avoided their scheduled runs because awful mechanical delays were becoming regular. Conductors and especially engineers is the problem. They need one and one, although that is far from an ideal number of conductors, but there are, at last check 3 conductors for every engineer.
At the early rush, no traffic meltdown has occurred. I will say about this the Roosevelt Boulevard and its 12 lanes can move a lot more cars than people think. There are also many parallel surface streets in a gird system, Frankfort Ave, Torresdale Ave, State Road, et. al. which alone can’t make a difference, but definitely can as a system.
At the early rush, no traffic meltdown has occurred. I will say about this the Roosevelt Boulevard and its 12 lanes can move a lot more cars than people think. There are also many parallel surface streets in a gird system, Frankfort Ave, Torresdale Ave, State Road, et. al. which alone can’t make a difference, but definitely can as a system.
A major disruption for commuters and car travelers in Philadelphia after a tanker fire caused part of the northbound lanes to collapse and damaged the southbound lanes.
Here is a report from the Inquirer (in Philly that's pronounced "Inkwire"
)
https://www.inquirer.com/news/live/i-95-philadelphia-bridge-fire-collapse-traffic-20230611.html
I figure this should have a positive effect on SEPTA and Amtrak patronage as travelers seek alternatives, as there aren't great highway alternatives.
Here is a report from the Inquirer (in Philly that's pronounced "Inkwire"
)https://www.inquirer.com/news/live/i-95-philadelphia-bridge-fire-collapse-traffic-20230611.html
I figure this should have a positive effect on SEPTA and Amtrak patronage as travelers seek alternatives, as there aren't great highway alternatives.
jis
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SEPTA definitely. I am not sure what part of the typical traffic that ran on that segment of I-95 would use Amtrak from where to where.A major disruption for commuters and car travelers in Philadelphia after a tanker fire caused part of the northbound lanes to collapse and damaged the southbound lanes.
Here is a report from the Inquirer (in Philly that's pronounced "Inkwire"
https://www.inquirer.com/news/live/i-95-philadelphia-bridge-fire-collapse-traffic-20230611.html
I figure this should have a positive effect on SEPTA and Amtrak patronage as travelers seek alternatives, as there aren't great highway alternatives.
As has been mentioned for the non-local commuter traffic there are two terrific highways a few miles to the east/south. The issue will be to what extent those will get saturated by diversion traffic. My guess is most of the diversion will happen to local roads, especially for those who are traveling locally which is a vast majority of drivers on that segment of I-95.
As expected, this morning there is no significant impact on fares or availability on Amtrak through that area. SEPTA I am told is an entirely different matter, again as expected.
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west point
Engineer
A look at the aerial footage might reveal one partial northbound solution. The highway department might be able to combine the northbound exit and entrance ramps to the east of the bridge to give 2 lanes northbound bypass. Someone who knows the elevations of those 2 ramps will know if possible? However, that would interfere with the repair work.
An engineering problem will be the vertical support walls of the bridge. It will take a detailed survey to determine if the concrete retained it strength or if it will require reinforcement.
An engineering problem will be the vertical support walls of the bridge. It will take a detailed survey to determine if the concrete retained it strength or if it will require reinforcement.
Septa9739
Lead Service Attendant
I don’t think that’s worth it. One lane with a 35ish speed limit that would have to close intermittently isn’t worth it. Apparently the southbound lanes are sagging by as much as 18 inches, so my money says they’re gonna need some work. People in the area reported morning rush car delays of over 45 minutes. SEPTA seems to have muddled through alright. We’ll see about tonight.
Alan had a good short video about this:
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The walls you cite (abutments) have earth behind them. That, plus the fact that the heat goes up and more so than sideways means that, in all likelihood, the abutments are OK. If that is not the case, then this issue becomes much more complicated. But, if the abutments are OK, then replacing this bridge is not a hard job. I know the Governor is saying "months", but my over/under is five weeks.
Good video ( I especially like the shots of the RDG "top and tail" Diesel train that used to run to Reading and Bethlehem) although I'm not sure about the viability of some of his solutions. Like leasing equipment from Amtrak, with the shortages of cars Amtrak currently has would that even be possible? Restoring the Newtown line would be great but IIRC there was a great deal of NIMBY opposition by a fairly influential group in the area and I suspect that hasn't changed. The Roosevelt extension to the subway is definitely something that should be built but as usual it is a question of where the money would come from.
True. And Philadelphia is pronounced "Fluffya."Here is a report from the Inquirer (in Philly that's pronounced "Inkwire"
That is great, thank you! Another AU, Armchair Urbanist. Great train footage, especially the F-unit.
Another way to do NYC-Philadelphia by car is NJTP to Exit 4, through Cherry Hill then cross the Delaware River into Philly on the Ben Franklin Bridge. In the 70s-80s that was the fastest way. Later the Betsy Ross Bridge was better. In the past couple of years since they finished the I-95 connection at the PA Turnpike, now that is (was) the fastest way. If you live in Northwest Philly like I did 1991-2018, best route was 309 to PA Turnpike. But none of those help the Philadelphians who live in the "river wards" and commute to Center City (Philly downtown true name). Another affected faction will be tourists who want to visit historic Philadelphia in the summer.
John from RI
Train Attendant
Larry Higgs, who writes about transit issues in New Jersey, has an excellent article about the I-95 bridge collapse and the closing of the highway. NJT, SEPTA and PATCO (Port Authority Transit Corporation) all have extra trains but there doesn't seem to be many people riding them. At the same time the picture at the top of his report says it all and he advises people to avoid driving in the area it that is at all possible. There are massive traffic jams in the whole area.
https://www.nj.com/news/2023/06/how...cal-section-of-i-95-burned-and-collapsed.html
https://www.nj.com/news/2023/06/how...cal-section-of-i-95-burned-and-collapsed.html
It will take a few days of massive traffic jams before people will try and switch modes. You hope everyone else has switch so you can just drive yourself to work, and do not have to learn or adjust to a transit system. Unless your system is ever 2 minutes and free to use. There a learning curve.
jis
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In my experience in NJ it seems that the decision making criteria shifting from driving to transit is driven primarily by whether the travel time including the traffic jam is significantly longer than what can be achieved by shifting to transit, and that is for door to door (err... parking lot to parking lot in a manner of speaking). Unfortunately NJT is not really set up to be terribly time efficient for NJ to NJ trips, unless you are fortunate enough to have origin and destination on the same transit route, in which case you are probably using it anyway. So often it is actually shorter time wise to just suffer through the traffic jam, or find alternate back road routes, than try to run the NJT gauntlet, which is unfortunate, but that is transit swings in one of the densest populated states.
I don't know the details of trip flows etc. around the I-95 outage, but I would not necessarily bet on massive shifts. Any shift would mostly be from those that used I-95 to commute from that area to Center City or Main Line I would surmise, and that shift would be to SEPTA. I doubt there will be much if any shift to Amtrak, since Amtrak does not serve that market and is expensive, unless of course traffic shift to acroos the river significantly clogs up NJ Turnpike..
When I was a kid, I lived on the Main Line, and when we went to New York, we woulkd go out to Gulph Mills, get on the Schuylkill Expressway (I-76), take that to Valley Forge, then get on the PA Turnpike, and drive that east to New Jersey, where we'd get on the New Jersey Turnpike.
When we moved into Center City, we went over the Ben Frankin Bridge and took NJ 38/73 to Exit 4 of the New Jersey Turnpike.
jis
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That is what I would have thought one would do. But admittedly I never lived there, I just visited people/places there from NJ. Never used I-95 in PA, but often watched sitting in Amtrak trains while overtaking the traffic.
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PennDOT will announce reconstruction plans tomorrow (6/14). Demolition of the remaining southbound span and removal of debris started today.
How does the speed of PennDOT's getting to work on this problem compare to that of California getting to work on the Pacific Surfliner route that has been blocked by varioius landslides and such?
We lived in Swarthmore until 2001 and when we drove to New England usually took I95 the Walt Whitman then I76 South to 295. Then I would jump over to the NJ Turnpike at Cherry Hill, sometimes stopping for gas which was usually cheaper in NJ in spite of being full service. So I would not have been affected by this collapse other than traffic on the alternate routes.
For a little while my wife was staying at our new house in MA and the kids and I were still in PA while they finished out their year in school, so we would take the Inland Route train to Worcester. I wish they would bring that back it was very useful.
For a little while my wife was staying at our new house in MA and the kids and I were still in PA while they finished out their year in school, so we would take the Inland Route train to Worcester. I wish they would bring that back it was very useful.
Some guidance might be gained from the collapse of the Fern Hollow Bridge in Pittsburgh on Jan. 28, 2022. While not quite the same as an I 95 situation, it is a major urban thoroughfare connection. Construction of the new bridge began on May 9, 2022, and was partially opened to two lane traffic Dec. 20, 2022. It is now closed again for 4 weeks for finishing work...a sidewalk, completion of all four lanes and other punch list items. Bottom line, it was close to a year to get that done and it was considered an emergency project.
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PennDOT has released the restoration plan. Demolition of the damaged bridge will be completed tomorrow (Wednesday 6/15). The northbound Cottman Avenue offramp will remain closed for now. The removed bridge span will be temporarily replaced with fill and conventional pavement to provide six lanes thru lanes (down from 8). Placement of the fill will begin Thursday. Once the highway is reopened on the temporary roadway, new bridges will be constructed outside the fill area. When the outer sections bridge are done, the traffic will be shifter to the new structures, the fill will be removed, and the center section of the bridge will be constructed. Completion of the center section will restore all lanes and will allow the Cottman offramp to be reopened. No official timeline was giver for the stages, but I suspect the temporary roadway allowing I-95 to reopen will be ready within two weeks.
Yes that probably the simplest way of fix this. Filling the gap with dirt. Have keep it moist, and compact it down ever few feet of soil added. Not too fast, got to go slow or it will settle badly. But the simplest and fastest way to reopen this highway.
west point
Engineer
Maybe will be faster fill. Going to use recycled glass beads that does not have compaction problems of 4 " dirt, wet , & compaction. Then repeat.
Septa9739
Lead Service Attendant
SEPTA reported an increase of approximately 550 Key Card users between the Fox Chase, Trenton, and West Trenton Lines on Monday, and about 1,000 on Tuesday. The numbers don’5 quite make sense as unlinked trips, so if it likely these are actual people (who likely made a round trip). This does not count onboard sales, which I would guess are maybe 25% of passengers. Reports have been made of capacity problems on the Trenton Line. These riders are much appreciated as SEPTA struggles with otherwise sluggish ridership returns.
