Impaired pedestrians and trains don't mix

[Ryan]

Leaving a stopped train on the line doesn't put others at risk.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that it is after having it explained.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Trains stop along the mainline all the time, sometimes when instructed by dispatching and sometimes by their own crews for their own reasons, but a stopped train is not something that should concern anyone in and of itself, even if it's sitting on a mainline track with no passing siding. Other trains on either side of the occupied block will be prevented from proceeding as a matter of standard operating procedure, generally by way of an automatic signal or due to lack of permission from the appropriate dispatcher. I suppose if you had a clueless or suicidal engineer or dispatcher another train could enter the block anyway, but such incursions are rare and in the future this too would be prevented due to automated slowing and stopping initiated by PTC systems.

 

[jis]

Trains stop along the mainline all the time, sometimes when instructed by dispatching and sometimes by their own crews for their own reasons, but a stopped train is not something that should concern anyone in and of itself, even if it's sitting on a mainline track with no passing siding. Other trains on either side of the occupied block will be prevented from proceeding as a matter of standard operating procedure, generally by way of an automatic signal or due to lack of permission from the appropriate dispatcher. I suppose if you had a clueless or suicidal engineer or dispatcher another train could enter the block anyway, but such incursions are rare and in the future this too would be prevented due to automated slowing and stopping initiated by PTC systems.

However, there will never be anything to stop a suicidal engineer from doing whatever since all it takes is a flip of a switch to disable/override the PTC on an engine.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Trains stop along the mainline all the time, sometimes when instructed by dispatching and sometimes by their own crews for their own reasons, but a stopped train is not something that should concern anyone in and of itself, even if it's sitting on a mainline track with no passing siding. Other trains on either side of the occupied block will be prevented from proceeding as a matter of standard operating procedure, generally by way of an automatic signal or due to lack of permission from the appropriate dispatcher. I suppose if you had a clueless or suicidal engineer or dispatcher another train could enter the block anyway, but such incursions are rare and in the future this too would be prevented due to automated slowing and stopping initiated by PTC systems.

However, there will never be anything to stop a suicidal engineer from doing whatever since all it takes is a flip of a switch to disable/override the PTC on an engine.

Interesting.

Is the idea that the PTC is prone to fail and therefore needs to be easy to disable?

I'm guessing that anytime someone disables the PTC this action is recorded somewhere?

Reminds me of incidents where aircraft pilots were able to disable the flight recorders before crashing.

I would have made disabling the flight recorders a bit more difficult than a simple pull of a hand.

But I guess they had their reasons for making this sort of thing easy despite the potential for abuse.

 

[gmushial]

Trains stop along the mainline all the time, sometimes when instructed by dispatching and sometimes by their own crews for their own reasons, but a stopped train is not something that should concern anyone in and of itself, even if it's sitting on a mainline track with no passing siding. Other trains on either side of the occupied block will be prevented from proceeding as a matter of standard operating procedure, generally by way of an automatic signal or due to lack of permission from the appropriate dispatcher. I suppose if you had a clueless or suicidal engineer or dispatcher another train could enter the block anyway, but such incursions are rare and in the future this too would be prevented due to automated slowing and stopping initiated by PTC systems.

However, there will never be anything to stop a suicidal engineer from doing whatever since all it takes is a flip of a switch to disable/override the PTC on an engine.

Not even suicidal - just somebody that's mad at the company, or simply somebody that's under the influence/with compromised judgment.

It will be interesting to see how Google's self-driving cars are embraced... with the introduction of technology into more and more tasks, up until now, generally the humans have been using the tech as an assistance - but given the rate of improvement in technology/computing/hardware, at some point that role is going to reverse, where the computer does the driving, and the human is the overseer. Although probably 20 years away, at some point we'll have automatic trains, either making for a safer environment, or not. In military aviation up until 20 years ago, it was still possible for a pilot to fly the aircraft; the more modern airframes in order to improve efficiency (loosely defined), the pilot simply indicates what (s)he wants done or where they want to go, and the computer systems reconfigure the craft to accomplish such. Not so say that we'll see trains that can't be "driven" by a human, I suspect we will see ones that are better driven by computers and their connections to scheduling/control networks - and where all the very conservative safety rules and procedures can be replaced by more real-time decision making/negotiations.

 

[SP&S]

Stopping is not a problem. This isn't the day of Casey Jones (with or without cocaine). Consider the Oregon City depot near me. It's a single track, there is no siding or bypass, and the Cascades stops right on the main line four times a day. No problems. Sure there is no absolute safety, but that's something that doesn't exist.

 

[NW cannonball]

Trains stop along the mainline all the time, sometimes when instructed by dispatching and sometimes by their own crews for their own reasons, but a stopped train is not something that should concern anyone in and of itself, even if it's sitting on a mainline track with no passing siding. Other trains on either side of the occupied block will be prevented from proceeding as a matter of standard operating procedure, generally by way of an automatic signal or due to lack of permission from the appropriate dispatcher. I suppose if you had a clueless or suicidal engineer or dispatcher another train could enter the block anyway, but such incursions are rare and in the future this too would be prevented due to automated slowing and stopping initiated by PTC systems.

However, there will never be anything to stop a suicidal engineer from doing whatever since all it takes is a flip of a switch to disable/override the PTC on an engine.

Interesting.

Is the idea that the PTC is prone to fail and therefore needs to be easy to disable?

I'm guessing that anytime someone disables the PTC this action is recorded somewhere?

Reminds me of incidents where aircraft pilots were able to disable the flight recorders before crashing.

I would have made disabling the flight recorders a bit more difficult than a simple pull of a hand.

But I guess they had their reasons for making this sort of thing easy despite the potential for abuse.

Reminds me of the totally undocumentable words from long ago about speed governors and alerters on some class I RR 0.25 century ago. Roughly quoted - no guarantee of accuracy -

"Some train operating crews have been using readily available electrolyte fluids to defeat the operation of the "some railroad" "safety alerter system modules" by depositing such fluids in the circuitry of the safety system modules.

(operating crews, stop dong that)" After a few cups of coffee, or a liter of "Mountain Dew" (registered trademark) - found I could produce the disabling electrolyte. Readily available - yes.

 

[jis]

There is also a well documented case of Ricky Gates who disabled the alerter on his locomotive and then jumped a stop signal under the influence drove it in front of Amtrak Colonial (running at 125 mph) splitting through a switch set against him. He just stuffed some cotton waste into the alerter whistle because he decided it was too distracting for his little "trip". That is what led to considerable tightening of rules as they apply to Railroad Engineers as a profession. I believe the whole business of requiring a License was one of the things that came out of that misadventure.

 

[NW cannonball]

three decades ago, i said there were three gates to hell - Ricky, Daryl, and Bill.

Not to say that I was correct then, just how I thought back at the time. Ricky was probably the worst for short-term harm - the other two -- still don't know.

 

[gmushial]

Seems we had another pedestrian trying to wrestle with a train last night - such have been about one a week here lately - with predictable results. http://www.redding.com/news/2013/nov/19/pedestrian-struck-and-killed-train-downtown-reddin/ ... next train through would have been the CS. :-( x100

 

[CHamilton]

Man hit, killed by freight train in Marysville [WA]

Traffic detoured in Lakewood [WA] due to fatal pedestrian vs. train collision

 

[CHamilton]

Man hit, killed by Amtrak train in Seffner (FL)

 

[CHamilton]

Fatality reported in Edmonds Friday morning as person struck by freight train

WA state, 11/29/13. Apparent suicide.

 

[gmushial]

Fatality reported in Edmonds Friday morning as person struck by freight train

WA state, 11/29/13. Apparent suicide.

Maybe it's irrational to try to have a rational discussion about seemingly irrational behavior - and presuming these people really do wish to kill themselves: why don't they just put a bag over their head (or some other nonviolent means)? Wouldn't the outcome be the same? Or, do they really hate themselves so much that they really do wish that their bodies end up as bloodied mangled masses (not wishing to sound heartless - but can't think of a better description)? I feel sorry for anyone that feels such a need/desire - but getting run over by a train causes a lot of heartbreak for a lot of innocent uninvolved (or, involuntarily involved) people. Or is there some cultural aspect to this that I'm missing? ... not exactly an early Sunday morning topic - sorry.

 

[CHamilton]

Pedestrian killed by train in southern Wash.

This was train 509 between Tacoma and Olympia, Sunday evening, 12/8/13.

 

[CHamilton]

Caution: this one is gruesome.

STABBING SUSPECT: ‘Cut In Half By Train’