Increased Prices Have Shut Me Down, Again.

[D.P. Roberts]

Secondly, buying AGR points is almost always cheaper than buying rail fare. I max out my AGR account (10,000 points) whenever they have a good sale going, especially the 50% bonus.

Its amazing to me how memorable a single one-off 50% bonus points sale has become for this forum. Were talking about an absolute maximum benefit of 5,000 free points from a nearly $300 points purchase that precipitated a huge devaluation in bedroom awards. Versus the barely remembered no-fee AGR card promotion with 32,000 free points you were able to secure with a $0.25 purchase of gum that would never expire.

I'm not sure how "memorable" the sale was. The 50% was nice, & the trip I'm taking this summer was paid for using the points I got from that. They didn't offer it last year, but they offer 30% quite regularly. I don't know how the discount compares to the "good ole days", but I think it's great. I think AGR is one of the best-kept secrets in the travel industry. But the bonus points are just that - a bonus.

My family is on the other side of the country. In order to save money (air or Amtrak), I have to book early. When I buy a plane ticket, I have to get non-refundable, non-changeable plane tickets. The problem with that is that sometimes plans change. With the airlines, I'm out of luck. With Amtrak, I can get a 100% refund. That, to me, is invaluable. Plus, with Amtrak I can book each leg of the trip separately, & just change/cancel one of them. No dice with airplanes.

I understand that Amtrak doesn't work in many situations, and for many people. But for many others (like myself), the worse the airlines get, the better Amtrak looks.

 

[TimePeace]

Not a new idea, but worth repeating: the best thing about AGR trips is, it does not matter where the buckets are on the day you want to go... as long as there is a seat or a room available, for your redemption, it is the same cost (in points). On longer rides the cost is way better than paying cash. It allows me to travel when otherwise I could not afford it.

 

[crescent2]

Totally agree, guys. Re AGR benefits and buying points, I only discovered that recently. And if you get a sleeper, it includes another person as well.

 

[KrazyKoala]

The nice thing about Amtrak is you can book a trip same day or next day and it's cheaper than flying.

Not if you try to book a sleeper its not.

I cant remember the last time I had to leave right now but could wait until 3:00AM to depart and didnt have to arrive at my destination until days later, but I guess if that ever happens Amtrak will be there.

The price goes up based on how many rooms are sold, not by how close to departure it is like aircraft. I've gotten tickets before same day that were the same price 30 days prior before.

 

[Ryan]

I must have missed the part of his post where he claimed that prices were directly tied to time before departure.

 

[Train Rider]

It would be fiscally criminal for Amtrak to not raise prices as a result of demand. Gouging is such a misapplied word these days.

Unless you need points quick, I don't understand buying points when the AGR MasterCard is available. Use it like a checkbook and pay it off each month and you will rack up points in a big hurry. Also, if you know what you want to buy and are going to get it anyway, then use the shopping portal. Those points are free.

 

[jebr]

My family is on the other side of the country. In order to save money (air or Amtrak), I have to book early. When I buy a plane ticket, I have to get non-refundable, non-changeable plane tickets. The problem with that is that sometimes plans change. With the airlines, I'm out of luck. With Amtrak, I can get a 100% refund. That, to me, is invaluable. Plus, with Amtrak I can book each leg of the trip separately, & just change/cancel one of them. No dice with airplanes.

I understand that Amtrak doesn't work in many situations, and for many people. But for many others (like myself), the worse the airlines get, the better Amtrak looks.

To be fair, there are some airlines that offer at least changeable fares at their discounted prices. Southwest is the most notable of these, but there may be others (I'm not sure.) For me, that made it worth buying my tickets when they were low: I was pretty sure that those dates would work, but I can change them and just pay the fare difference if I need to.

It would be fiscally criminal for Amtrak to not raise prices as a result of demand. Gouging is such a misapplied word these days.
Unless you need points quick, I don't understand buying points when the AGR MasterCard is available. Use it like a checkbook and pay it off each month and you will rack up points in a big hurry. Also, if you know what you want to buy and are going to get it anyway, then use the shopping portal. Those points are free.

But then I'll lose any other rewards programs that I may use. While AGR points are nice, I tend to only value them at a penny, maybe two, each. Gasoline and groceries are rewarded in cash back better on my American Express card. Also, the shopping portal is not "free" points, as I'd lose any cash back I'd make from the transaction. (I typically use Ebates, but there's a lot of choices out there.)

All these programs require tradeoffs. I prefer cash back to points, and so my purchasing habits reflect that. (My credit union credit card also operates on points, but I'm planning on using them for other travel expenses.)

 

[SarahZ]

It would be fiscally criminal for Amtrak to not raise prices as a result of demand. Gouging is such a misapplied word these days.
Unless you need points quick, I don't understand buying points when the AGR MasterCard is available. Use it like a checkbook and pay it off each month and you will rack up points in a big hurry. Also, if you know what you want to buy and are going to get it anyway, then use the shopping portal. Those points are free.

Not everyone qualifies for the AGR MasterCard.

 

[Train Rider]

My family is on the other side of the country. In order to save money (air or Amtrak), I have to book early. When I buy a plane ticket, I have to get non-refundable, non-changeable plane tickets. The problem with that is that sometimes plans change. With the airlines, I'm out of luck. With Amtrak, I can get a 100% refund. That, to me, is invaluable. Plus, with Amtrak I can book each leg of the trip separately, & just change/cancel one of them. No dice with airplanes.

I understand that Amtrak doesn't work in many situations, and for many people. But for many others (like myself), the worse the airlines get, the better Amtrak looks.

To be fair, there are some airlines that offer at least changeable fares at their discounted prices. Southwest is the most notable of these, but there may be others (I'm not sure.) For me, that made it worth buying my tickets when they were low: I was pretty sure that those dates would work, but I can change them and just pay the fare difference if I need to.

It would be fiscally criminal for Amtrak to not raise prices as a result of demand. Gouging is such a misapplied word these days.
Unless you need points quick, I don't understand buying points when the AGR MasterCard is available. Use it like a checkbook and pay it off each month and you will rack up points in a big hurry. Also, if you know what you want to buy and are going to get it anyway, then use the shopping portal. Those points are free.

But then I'll lose any other rewards programs that I may use. While AGR points are nice, I tend to only value them at a penny, maybe two, each. Gasoline and groceries are rewarded in cash back better on my American Express card. Also, the shopping portal is not "free" points, as I'd lose any cash back I'd make from the transaction. (I typically use Ebates, but there's a lot of choices out there.)

All these programs require tradeoffs. I prefer cash back to points, and so my purchasing habits reflect that. (My credit union credit card also operates on points, but I'm planning on using them for other travel expenses.)

I too play the point value game and I have a cash-back card that I really like also. My switch to the AGR credit card coincided with my clipping my Frontier Airlines card after that airline essentially dropped their Milwaukee hub. They did run a nice one-time deal where I could switch my remaining points to Delta, but there was no use in me retaining that card.

My preferred annual trip happens to be CHI to SAS and that happens to be a really nice one-zone redemption -- especially since I did get the 32K point kicker for the card. I also in a position where I can rack up free points for car rentals and hotels or buying office supplies online for work.

Cash flow is also a factor and spending a few hundred bucks now for points when I can earn them for "free" over a period of time is not my preferred financial option for travel I will take in the future. I also prefer the simplicity and focused earning power of concentrating on a one or two rewards programs, that is why if the car rental company or hotel chain lets me, I have them go to AGR directly rather than their programs. I lose some value, but I don't accumulate at a particular one of these businesses fast enough to make it worth my while.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The nice thing about Amtrak is you can book a trip same day or next day and it's cheaper than flying.

Not if you try to book a sleeper its not.

I cant remember the last time I had to leave right now but could wait until 3:00AM to depart and didnt have to arrive at my destination until days later, but I guess if that ever happens Amtrak will be there.

The price goes up based on how many rooms are sold, not by how close to departure it is like aircraft. I've gotten tickets before same day that were the same price 30 days prior before.

I've bought sleepers and airfare anywhere from six months to sixty minutes before departure. Among my origins and destinations I've never seen a sleeper fare that substantially undercut airfare for the same city pair. In my experience sleeper fares have been roughly the same or more than flying, even at the last minute.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

As for buying AGR points vs. earning them with the MasterCard: which one is the better "value" for you totally depends on how much you travel, and how much you spend on the credit card. If you spend a lot and/or don't travel very often, it's probably pretty easy to earn enough points.

I have the MasterCard, but I don't spend enough each month to earn all the points I need. I also quickly discovered that buying points (especially with a bonus) is almost always cheaper than booking Amtrak travel with cash. For example, a 2-zone round trip can get you to probably 75% of the destinations in the US. If you live on the west coast, you can go as far east as Chicago. If you live on the east coast, you can go as far west as Denver. Such a round trip would cost 40,000 points, or about $800 for a roomette two people if you buy points. That's $400 per person, round trip. The airlines can beat that by a little bit for major routes, but Amtrak wins to smaller markets & for longer distances.

So, my wife and I both have AGR accounts. We each buy 10,000 points (plus the bonus) each year. Every other year, for $400 each, we can take a round trip anywhere in the country (we live in the central zone), which (unlike flying) includes overnight accommodations and meals for 1-3 nights. The extra points we get from the credit card allow us to upgrade our accommodations, travel more frequently, or cut some costs for points. I think that's a pretty good deal.

 

[KrazyKoala]

The nice thing about Amtrak is you can book a trip same day or next day and it's cheaper than flying.

Not if you try to book a sleeper its not.

I cant remember the last time I had to leave right now but could wait until 3:00AM to depart and didnt have to arrive at my destination until days later, but I guess if that ever happens Amtrak will be there.

The price goes up based on how many rooms are sold, not by how close to departure it is like aircraft. I've gotten tickets before same day that were the same price 30 days prior before.

I've bought sleepers and airfare anywhere from six months to sixty minutes before departure. Among my origins and destinations I've never seen a sleeper fare that substantially undercut airfare for the same city pair. In my experience sleeper fares have been roughly the same or more than flying, even at the last minute.

We are talking about upgraded first class flight tickets right? Those are in the thousands of dollars...

 

[SarahZ]

The nice thing about Amtrak is you can book a trip same day or next day and it's cheaper than flying.

Not if you try to book a sleeper its not.

I cant remember the last time I had to leave right now but could wait until 3:00AM to depart and didnt have to arrive at my destination until days later, but I guess if that ever happens Amtrak will be there.

The price goes up based on how many rooms are sold, not by how close to departure it is like aircraft. I've gotten tickets before same day that were the same price 30 days prior before.

I've bought sleepers and airfare anywhere from six months to sixty minutes before departure. Among my origins and destinations I've never seen a sleeper fare that substantially undercut airfare for the same city pair. In my experience sleeper fares have been roughly the same or more than flying, even at the last minute.

We are talking about upgraded first class flight tickets right? Those are in the thousands of dollars...

To interject, no.

We were going to take the CZ to SF this summer. In a roomette, we would have paid $1700 round-trip. A bedroom would have been closer to $3000. We're flying in Coach on Virgin Airlines for $800 round-trip, and that's because we're leaving on Saturday. We could probably save money if we flew on an "off" day, but it doesn't work with our schedule.

Our trip to ABQ on the SWC is $1150 in a roomette. A round-trip flight on Southwest is $450.

 

[rrdude]

We basically have accept the fact that absent AGR trips, Amtrk Sleeper travel is going to be far more expensive. Supply n demand, cant argue with it.....

 

[KrazyKoala]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets.

It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

 

[PRR 60]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets.
It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

I disagree. You should compare the level of service that is desired for the length of travel. Sitting in coach on Amtrak for 40 hours, including two nights, is not the same as sitting in coach on an airliner for 4 hours. For me, a long distance Amtrak trip requires sleeper accommodations. A four hour flight is just fine in coach.

 

[Will]

Well, in one sense it's "Good for Amtrak" that they can charge higher prices, and still keep capacity at high levels.

Well, in one sense it's "Good for Amtrak" that they can charge higher prices, and still keep capacity at high levels.

I keep hearing this argument again and again, can someone please explain what is Amtrak's definition of "running at high capacity"? I am not as well traveled as some of you folks, but on the half a dozen long distance trips I've taken, each time I noticed the coaches and sleepers both were fairly empty, as in, yes lost of seats are occupied, but nowhere close to chock-a-bloc full with nearly every seat taken. On Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief and Coast Starlight when I traveled, every time I walked the length of the train multiple times and found all the coach cars always had significant number of empty seat pairs and lots of passengers using two seats to sprawl out. Somehow my brain refuses to believe this is anything close to "sold out", more like 60-70% occupancy. Each time I wondered, if Amtrak lowered their fares, wouldn't they be able to fill up all these empty seats? And the answer I get from folks here is, "oh never mind, trains are running at full capacity so no need to reduce fares" What gives?

If you reduce fars by 20% and get a 15% rise in load factor, are you ahead finanically? The answer is likely not - it will infact be a money losing proposition. Your core riders who are willing to pay your current prices notice the discounts and pay less, but that's not offset with the new business you recieve.

Contrived example:

currently you have 70 people purchasing tickets at $100/each, 30 seats are going empty. Revenue is $7000

You lower the cost to $80 to increase the load factor and have 85 purchases for a total revenue of $6800.

It's obviously far more complex, but you get the idea....

 

[KrazyKoala]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets.
It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

I disagree. You should compare the level of service that is desired for the length of travel. Sitting in coach on Amtrak for 40 hours, including two nights, is not the same as sitting in coach on an airliner for 4 hours. For me, a long distance Amtrak trip requires sleeper accommodations. A four hour flight is just fine in coach.

It's the general service provided that puts them apart. Getting on the train, you know its going to take longer, that doesn't mean that their upgraded service is comparable to crappy airline service. Riding in coach on a plane, you now have to pay for your own meal, you get crappy, crammed seats, and one attendant per 100-200 people.

First class, a better passenger to attendant ratio. Priority boarding, better seats, friendlier service, included meals, ect ect.

I don't think its right to compare sleeper to coach just because the train takes longer.

 

[PRR 60]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets.

It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

I disagree. You should compare the level of service that is desired for the length of travel. Sitting in coach on Amtrak for 40 hours, including two nights, is not the same as sitting in coach on an airliner for 4 hours. For me, a long distance Amtrak trip requires sleeper accommodations. A four hour flight is just fine in coach.

It's the general service provided that puts them apart. Getting on the train, you know its going to take longer, that doesn't mean that their upgraded service is comparable to crappy airline service. Riding in coach on a plane, you now have to pay for your own meal, you get crappy, crammed seats, and one attendant per 100-200 people.

First class, a better passenger to attendant ratio. Priority boarding, better seats, friendlier service, included meals, ect ect.

I don't think its right to compare sleeper to coach just because the train takes longer.

You don't need that on a plane for a four hour flight. You are only on the plane for four hours. Do you really need a meal? Do you need a bed? Do you need an attendant to pamper you? You sure do need it on a train for 40 hours. Sorry, coach on an 40 hour train ride is not the same as coach on a four hour flight.
By the way, on a flight with 100 passengers, there are three attendants, not one.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets. It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

San Antonio to almost anywhere in the country is generally around four hours of active flying or less. I do not benefit from first class airline tickets because four hours of flying is simply not long enough for coach travel to bother me. However, using Amtrak just to reach the next state takes nearly 12 hours. To reach the West coast requires 24 hours and many more locations require two or even three days of train travel under the best possible circumstances. That's simply too long to enjoy in coach in my view. For those who don't mind it, more power to them, but for me two or three days in coach is something to be avoided. As a result my choices are often between a coach airline ticket for a few hours of travel or a sleeper train ticket for a few days of travel. Seems pretty sane and fair to me to only buy what I actually need. The amazing thing is that these days Amtrak bedrooms can even end up costing as much or more than first class airfare, which kind of makes this whole argument a moot point in my view.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets.
It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

EXACTLY, I tried to make this point earlier. Comparing coach or even first class plane tickets to a sleeper with meals included and a bed to lay flat at night is impossible to be fair.

Coach train tickets to coach plane tickets have much more close comparison. But the perks of being able to move around and get food plus the extra room in the seats makes the train the way to travel unless you absolutely need to be there quickly.

I travel ONLY by coach and sleep just fine in the ample seats given. Saying that you have to have a sleeper when traveling LD trains, that is your choice, if you cannot sleep other than laying down, then fine. Coach compared to the tiny seats you get on an airplane for those of us that are not tiny is impossible to compare.

The coach seats in a plane for four hours would be way too painful for someone who has issues with sitting for too long and not being able to walk around. Yes you can walk up and down the aisle, but you still have to keep your knees bent for the majority of the trip. I cannot do that, my knees need to be straightened out more often than every hour or so.

 

[Ryan]

You need to compare coach train tickets, with coach plane tickets.

It's insane to compare a coach plane ticket to an upgraded ticket on another service and think that's an equal and fair comparison.

I disagree. You should compare the level of service that is desired for the length of travel. Sitting in coach on Amtrak for 40 hours, including two nights, is not the same as sitting in coach on an airliner for 4 hours. For me, a long distance Amtrak trip requires sleeper accommodations. A four hour flight is just fine in coach.

Agreed completely.
The only thing I'd add if you're going to do a full cost comparison is the cost of the hotel and (maybe) meal after that flight.

For example, if I need to be in Chicago for a meeting Monday morning, I have two options:

1. Take the Capitol Limited (in a sleeper), leave DC Sunday evening and arrive in Chicago Monday morning ready to roll.

2. Fly out Sunday evening, stay in a hotel, pay for dinner on Sunday night (whether I eat it at home before I go to the airport, at the airport or after I arrive), pay for breakfast Monday morning (unless it's included in the hotel rate).

That would be as fair a comparison as I could come up with. There's no way I'm considering First Class for a flight that short.

I don't personally consider it an option to stay at home Sunday night and get up at a rediculous hour Monday morning to catch a flight to Chicago in time for an AM meeting, some people may consider that feasible.

 

[jis]

Then again, if I have a Monday morning meeting in Chicago then it is foolhardy to plan on making it arriving on the Cap that morning. I would always fly out Sunday evening for that one. Monday afternoon meeting is feasible using the Cap. And trust me, I am one of those that actually uses the Meteor to get to meetings in JAX or SAV from the north, so it is not like I am inimical to the concept at all.

As far as FC on Domestic goes, who springs for that? Those cabins are there for getting complementary upgrades as fafr as I am concerned

 

[Nathanael]

San Antonio to almost anywhere in the country is generally around four hours of active flying or less.

You're starting from San Antonio. Apparently it has pretty good airline connections. And it has, frankly, very poor Amtrak service: the three-a-week Sunset Limited in two directions, the Texas Eagle in a third -- all running slow on slow track.
If you're starting from Syracuse, NY, the situation looks different. There are relatively few direct flights, mostly only going to hubs; your airline trip is going to be long and involve transfers. And Syracuse has a *lot* more Amtrak service than San Antonio does, all running at a good 79 mph clip. I'm sure the prices look different, too.

It matters where you start and where you're going. Frankly, due to the paucity of Amtrak routes in the area and the slowness of them, San Antonio is substantially disadvantaged for Amtrak from the start. It's kind of impressive that you're finding such high Amtrak prices out of San Antonio. On the Texas Eagle, that may be because Amtrak is a better option from points further north, so the people from further north are buying the seats & rooms. On the Sunset Limited... well, I don't really think three-a-week is ever a decent option (I've tried to plan trips several times and I've never been able to make a three-a-week train schedule work), so I can't explain that.

The coach seats in a plane for four hours would be way too painful for someone who has issues with sitting for too long and not being able to walk around. Yes you can walk up and down the aisle, but you still have to keep your knees bent for the majority of the trip. I cannot do that, my knees need to be straightened out more often than every hour or so.

This is why my fiancee does not fly. Last airplane trip she had a scare when, on arrival, she couldn't move her legs and we were worried she would have to be carried out. Amtrak? No problem.

 

[SarahZ]

I'm also going to argue that time is money. I have to use an extra five vacation days if we use Amtrak instead of flying. FIVE. That's a lot of vacation days when you only get ten per year. We spend as much time (or more) on the train than we do at our destination.

Also, I don't require a meal, bed, or attendant on a four-hour flight. I'm perfectly happy with my free drink and bag of pretzels. On a 2.5-day train ride? Heck yes I require that. There is no way I'd sit in Coach for that long. That's why, for my personal comparison between flying and taking the train, I compare Coach on a plane with a roomette on the train. It doesn't make sense to compare Coach with Coach because we don't use Coach on the train.

When I look at flying versus taking the train, flying wins every single time. The only reason we used Amtrak in the past is because I used to be too big for the airplane seats and my boyfriend is extremely terrified of flying. He's working on it, though, since it is no longer feasible for us to keep using up all of our vacation days and spending an extra $500-1000 for something that could be a quick, inexpensive trip.

Once we retire and have nothing but free time, I would love to travel the U.S. by train. I'm excited about it. I LOVE Amtrak. It just doesn't work for us right now, even though I wish it could.