Indiana proposed budget zeros out Hoosier State funding

[jis]

There was significant expansion of the State Supported route system during the Claytor years. AFAICT nothing new that was truly significant, happened in the LD network. There was continued improvements on the NEC that were already in the pipeline when Claytor started. He was able to hold the proposed Reagan cuts at bay.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Amtrak today somehow has what seems to be actual support (and record funding) from Congress. But we have Anderson and Gardner, so cost cutting, careless disposal of institutional knowledge, pointless wheel-reinvention, and all kinds of other mismanagement is the name of the game.

It is also possible that Amtrak received record funding knowing Richard Anderson was going to slash, burn, cost cut and maybe even pare down service....which is something a lot of people in Congress have mentioned they wanted.  Maybe they think he will be a better custodian of the federal funds.

 

[Trogdor]

It certainly doesn't help that it takes an hour to travel from Chi to the first stop, which is 29 miles away. I suppose things have gotten better. After all, it used to take an hour and fifteen minutes. If memory serves, it travel on 4 different railroads between CHI-DYE, correct?

Unless things changed recently (I know there was talk about some railroad ownership realignment in the area, but don’t know what happened to it), it’s actually seven different railroads.

Start out on Amtrak (1) out of Union Station to 21st St, switch to NS (2), take NS down a bit, switch over to Metra-owned (3) track (route the Southwest Service uses), back to NS for a bit, then onto the Belt Railway of Chicago (4; IIRC, that one still required dialing up the dispatcher and getting track warrants), then onto the UP (5), connecting to the CN (6), then finally CSX (7).  A now-former Amtrak high-level management person in Chicago was pushing for a mostly CN routing that would have the train take the former IC corridor (same as City of New Orleans/southern IL state trains) directly to the last CN segment.  The connection between those two segments is currently hand-throw switches, and nobody seemed to give enough of a damn to pay for powering them up.

 

[dgvrengineer]

I wondered why CSX to CN to Union Station wasn't being used.  It seems like the logical route compared to it's current routing. It seems like it would be more reliable and faster than the current stop & eventually go time consuming path taken.

 

[Eric S]

Absent a plan to improve CHI-IND service (reduced travel times, increased frequencies), I can certainly understand the reluctance of the governor and/or legislators to continue funding the existing train.

Of course, it is the State of Indiana that needs to be studying the implementing such a plan to improve service and IN has hardly demonstrated a significant willingness to improve intercity (or local and regional) rail service in the past.

 

[amtrakpass]

I hope the service gets preserved. I do think actually the easiest thing to do is to improve the speed outside of Chicago to regular 79mph track most of the way to Indy. I understand why people like to concentrate on the first few miles out of the station and that is an issue but  the fact that it is all 60mph or less on CSX if I understand it would be easier to fix and give you a good time savings.

An hour or so later departure from Indy would also still have all the connections  and give a more passenger friendly time to would be a simple improvement.

Also as far as the route out of Chicago, from Union Station through NS and Metra is the regular Metra Southwest service route and is fine currently for passenger  speed and the short section on the BRC is no issue in my experience.

After that is the issue. The part on the UP past a railyard is slower than it should be.  

I also have never heard of crossing different railroads and needing different bulletins to be much of an issue except in railfan circles.

But yes It would be cool if it came into town on a faster route like the CN. 

Of course the best solution would be to improve the long stretch in Indiana on CSX to 80mph and also the route into Chicago too and then increase frequencies. But in the meantime I hope they just preserve what is there

 

[frequentflyer]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15ycbGCJBdpIOH4xWFN2SZxlBfnn-UDQW/view

A post on Trainorders states the last day of the Hoosier may be on June 30th.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Exactly why corridors as proposed won’t work. This wasn’t the best route but they had grass root and financial support from the local cities, still the state cut off funds. It doesn’t matter red or blue the states can’t be relied upon in this political environment. Washington state is close to pulling the plug on the Cascades as well. That’s a head scratcher but it’s the reality we live in.

The more that’s revealed on Trumps budget this week like Social security cuts and more costs to states in general the less there is for infrastructure and transportation. Yes his budget is DOA for the most part but it takes up legislators time and energy which leaves less time for finding viable solutions to ours and future generations issues.

 

[frequentflyer]

Exactly why corridors as proposed won’t work. This wasn’t the best route but they had grass root and financial support from the local cities, still the state cut off funds. It doesn’t matter red or blue the states can’t be relied upon in this political environment. Washington state is close to pulling the plug on the Cascades as well. That’s a head scratcher but it’s the reality we live in.

The more that’s revealed on Trumps budget this week like Social security cuts and more costs to states in general the less there is for infrastructure and transportation. Yes his budget is DOA for the most part but it takes up legislators time and energy which leaves less time for finding viable solutions to ours and future generations issues.

Corridors do not work when it an hour longer to take the train than drive.

 

[Anderson]

The budget is yet another round of "going through the motions". I hate to be dismissive, but I'll believe there's a threat when it gets a serious hearing in either house of Congress.

TBH I'm surprised that the House didn't just turn around and start budget work without waiting for Trump. Hell would break loose, but if they're going to ignore the President's suggestions (which they likely will anyway), I wonder why they bother deferring to him to start work?

Back on the Hoosier State...the situation on that route has been an utter mess for years. The timetable stinks, it's a 4x/week oddball, and it took Indiana calling Ed Ellis to get Amtrak to bother adding a cafe car. It is a pity to lose the train, but that's fairly consistently been the worst train in the system, and I can't see Indiana paying Amtrak's overhead to keep running it. The main benefit has been keeping a set of slots safe for a theoretical daily Cardinal, and even that seems like a long shot much of the time given CSX's attitude in WV.

 

[neroden]

The budget is yet another round of "going through the motions". I hate to be dismissive, but I'll believe there's a threat when it gets a serious hearing in either house of Congress.

TBH I'm surprised that the House didn't just turn around and start budget work without waiting for Trump.

Well, I'm sure behind the scenes they were. In terms of floor and committee meeting time, remember they have a lot of other business too, like rejecting the fake emergency, invoking the War Powers Act to reject the Yemen War, and so on...

 

[GBNorman]

Every year, for now I'd dare say the past ten, my Indianapolis friends (5 or 6) have gathered at a hotel Suite in Downtown Indianapolis (Westin; within sight of Union Station) for what we call "Day at the Races". None of us are really horse racing fans, and betting "is what others do", but we have each other's company. After the race, wine, and nibbles, we're off to a Ruth's Chris as good as "accross the street". The Suite is mine for the night, but next AM, some of us gather for Breakfast at restaurant that brands itself as "the Student Union for adults" (Cafe Patachaou). From there, we "break camp".

Now just think, if I limited myself to using the Hoosier State, I'd have to stay three nights at the hotel (@ $250 per), and take five hours to get there (plus connecting with METRA) when I safely drive it in 3'15", and do everything I want to. The schedule is absurd, and for that matter, so is the idea of offering rail passenger service over some circuitous routing comprising some three railroads.

I must question what is lost if this service gets the "whack".

 

[GBNorman]

Back on the Hoosier State...the situation on that route has been an utter mess for years. The timetable stinks, it's a 4x/week oddball, and it took Indiana calling Ed Ellis to get Amtrak to bother adding a cafe car.

I did once consider a "Hoosier State joyride" to Lafayette and return. Both ways would have been on the Ed Ellis varietal.

But I welched on that one, when all too often the Hoosier State departed from Canal Street rather than Track XX (busteetoot) and when the major brand hotels started to want 24hr CANX notice. Funny how during the Recession they did nicely with a 6P arrival day CANX, but, oh, the Recession is over and greed is back.

 

[neroden]

I can never make Indianapolis travel work. I've cancelled four trips to Indianapolis conventions because I cannot make the timing work on the train (and I do not travel long distances by any other means).

I don't know how to smack some sense into the Indiana legislature (nobody has done so in the last 100 years, to my knowledge), who ought to be *improving* the train service to Indianapolis.

 

[toddinde]

I rode the Hoosier regularly for years. I lived in Indy for a couple years and my son would ride it on weekends to visit me from college in Milwaukee. Amtrak’s afternoon throughway bus made it a handy, weekend option. All that said, the service is not great. It’s attrociously slow. Arrival and departure times are bad. Can’t get a snack or a drink. Yet, Indy to Chicago is a vital corridor. Indy is a great town held back by the lack of good transportation. I-65 and traffic in Chicago is horrible. You need a reliable entrance to Chicago, and 79 mile running on the Monon. Three trains a day, cafe car, and driving competitive times, and the ridership will pop.

 

[dgvrengineer]

Why don't they re-route it from Lafayette to Kankakee? The IC into Chicago would be much faster and the track from Lafayette to Kankakee is not great but still might be faster.

 

[RPC]

Why don't they re-route it from Lafayette to Kankakee? The IC into Chicago would be much faster and the track from Lafayette to Kankakee is not great but still might be faster.

Just for starters, the reroute would manage to miss both the Lafayette and Kankakee Amtrak stations! There's also a significant student market (and financial support) at Rensselaer.
(Another thought exercise: I've wondered about an interchange with NS at St. John, joining the NS main at Indiana Harbor...)

 

[CAQuail]

Not so sure there is significant student market at Rensselaer any more. The only school in Rensselaer was Saint Joseph's College which closed in 2017. That said the former NYC route to Kankakee is now a short line and would likely need a major amount of upgrades to bring it back to passenger standards. Back in the day Kankakee had two stations, it would appear that old NYC station has been torn down but the platform is still there.

 

[John Bredin]

Just for starters, the reroute would manage to miss both the Lafayette and Kankakee Amtrak stations! There's also a significant student market (and financial support) at Rensselaer.
(Another thought exercise: I've wondered about an interchange with NS at St. John, joining the NS main at Indiana Harbor...)

How about routing onto NS at Shelby, through Schneider and Momence to Kankakee? That would still miss Kankakee station, but it wouldn't miss Rensselaer. How is that track? Jumping in at a few crossings on Google StreetView shows it's single-track, but it seems at a glance to be in decent shape.

 

[GBNorman]

Salzburg (pop 152317) - Vienna (pop 1868000) - distance 295km (186 mi) - train running time 2.5hrs - train frequency - hourly.

Indianapolis (pop 872680) - Chicago (pop 2707120) - distance 195mi - highway time 3.5hrs - train 5hr, frequency "one a day".

No wonder the Olympic Comittee, essentially run by Europeans, "found somewhere else" than Chicago for the '16 Games.

 

[sttom]

Exactly why corridors as proposed won’t work. This wasn’t the best route but they had grass root and financial support from the local cities, still the state cut off funds. It doesn’t matter red or blue the states can’t be relied upon in this political environment. Washington state is close to pulling the plug on the Cascades as well. That’s a head scratcher but it’s the reality we live in.

We do need a more workable national rail policy akin to highways. There is no reason why the Hoosier State is so horrible given Indianapolis to Chicago is about the same length as the Capitol Corridor. And the Capitol Corridor has 7 trains from San Jose to Sacramento and the trip takes about 3 hours. Train travel shouldn't be 100% a state concern. Highways get 80% federal funding.

As for Washington, its legislature is basically 50/50 Democrat/Republican along with a rural/urban divide. Long story short, the politics isn't always friendly. Assuming that eliminating the Cascades is even an option and not just political hyperbole.

 

[tonijustine]

Not so sure there is significant student market at Rensselaer any more. The only school in Rensselaer was Saint Joseph's College which closed in 2017. That said the former NYC route to Kankakee is now a short line and would likely need a major amount of upgrades to bring it back to passenger standards. Back in the day Kankakee had two stations, it would appear that old NYC station has been torn down but the platform is still there.

To be honest, even when SJC was open, it was a small school (700 students) and I wouldn’t consider that student body driving significant traffic. Also, because I can’t help but open old wounds, I do wonder at how ridership figures reflect the closing.

SJC class of ‘99

 

[DSS&A]

A reroute in the Chicago area is a very good idea. I think the reroute to the CN (ex IC) to CN (ex GTW in Harvey) to CSX that the former Amtrak employee is a good idea. I think a better idea would be a reroute would be CN (ex IC) to CN (ex EJ&E at Matteson), then east to CSX would be faster. A stop at the Amtrak Homewood station would replace the Dyer station (or Dyer could relocate its station). A new interchange between the former EJ&E and CSX would have to be built.

There is a CREATE rail project at 75th Grand Crossing (ex NYC-PRR passing over IC and NKP) to connect the NS via the former Nickle Plate connector (the bridges, underpass and ROW is still in place) to the former IC. This will eliminate the Amtrak use of the St. Charles Air Line and the back-up moves between the S.C.Air Line and Union Station for the CNOL and the Carbondale, IL service trains. The Cardinal and any future Hoosier State services would also benefit from the future time saving project.

 

[JustOnce]

A now-former Amtrak high-level management person in Chicago was pushing for a mostly CN routing that would have the train take the former IC corridor (same as City of New Orleans/southern IL state trains) directly to the last CN segment. The connection between those two segments is currently hand-throw switches, and nobody seemed to give enough of a **** to pay for powering them up.

Would that require the Cardinal/Hoosier to back into Chicago like the other CN-routed trains?
Would hand-throwing a switch eat up all of the potential time savings? I know there was a hand-thrown switch west of Indianapolis that was migrated to CTC and that improved on-time performance.

I hope the service gets preserved. I do think actually the easiest thing to do is to improve the speed outside of Chicago to regular 79mph track most of the way to Indy. I understand why people like to concentrate on the first few miles out of the station and that is an issue but the fact that it is all 60mph or less on CSX if I understand it would be easier to fix and give you a good time savings.

Was it faster in the past? An old employee timetable from 2005ish seemed to indicate 79 mph running under Form D control. I think the FRA changed the rules in 2012 to require automatic block signals above 60 mph.

What are CSX's post-EHH plans for the route? I know it was on EHH's chopping block for downgrade to cut costs and avoid PTC. Are there any chances for the line crossing a PTC installation threshold which may indirectly increase speeds?

 

[fredmcain]

I can tell you what really frustrates and aggravates me about Indiana (and adjoining states). It is simply this: Prior to around 1930, nearly all Indiana and Ohio cities and towns were interconnected with rail passenger service. Many of those lines in those days were even electric and some of them, in today’s P.C. jargon, would’ve had a “low carbon footprint” since they were powered by renewable energy (hydro-electric).

Now, fast forward to today. Most cities and towns (with a few rare exceptions) have absolutely NO public transportation whatsoever. You either get there in an automobile or you don’t go. It’s as simple as that. I suppose you could walk, but who is able and/or willing to do that?

For those of us who cannot drive – for whatever reason – you need to find someone else who can drive you there. It’s the old “You can’t get there from here scenario”.

Take me for example. I live in Topeka, IN. My Dad died recently in Lafayette, IN. So, if this were 1925, I’d go to our county seat in LaGrange, IN and catch the southbound Pennsy steam train to Fort Wayne. Then I’d walk across town to the interurban depot and take that train to Lafayette. This whole think would’ve taken 3-5 hours.

Nowadays, I’d have to find someone to drive me to Elkhart (or better yet South Bend) then take Amtrak or the South Shore to Chicago. Then after taking a city bus (or walking) from the Randolph Street Station to Union Station I’d then take the Hoosier State to Lafayette. THAT scenario takes me 12-15 hours (depending).

Or, an automobile can get me there over state highways in 3-3½ hours with a “pit stop”.

If you do not drive an automobile, neither of the above choices is very desirable. This is not an isolated example. You can pick out just about any two city or town pairs and encounter the same thing. Using any kind of public transportation between some city pairs has become completely impossible. This really needs to change but I don’t know how. I’d much rather have electric trains but even motor coaches that would run several times a day would be an improvement over what we have now.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain