Just how declasse was Amtrak's Super Chief?

[lthanlon]

I'll be riding the Southwest Chief again in a couple of weeks, and like many folks here, I get excited and start reviewing all the information about a route's history and rolling stock. I've always been fascinated by tales of how Santa Fe was so shocked -- shocked, I tell you! -- over the "decline in service" when Amtrak took over the Super Chief that they yanked permission to use the name for several years.

What was Santa Fe expecting? And just how bad was the service, anyway? The Irish linen and fine china seem to have gone by the wayside, but Amtrak's Super Chief wasn't exactly a rolling Greyhound bus, was it? How did Santa Fe monitor the decline? Was there a checklist? I have this image of a white-gloved Franklin Pangborn and Edward Everett Horton boarding the train in Chicago and being horrified for more than 39 solid hours as they cluck and fuss their way from car to car.

Also, why didn't Amtrak just go with "Super Chief" again, instead of "Southwest Chief"?

Of course, considering all the once-venerable trademarks that have now been licensed to cheap imported goods and products never manufactured previously, I guess Santa Fe should be congratulated for protecting its image. Otherwise, we'd surely have seen El Capitan laxatives -- ALL THE WAY WITH SANTA FE!

Did any other railroads place restrictions on using their trademarks and servicemarks?

 

[Michael061282]

I'll be riding the Southwest Chief again in a couple of weeks, and like many folks here, I get excited and start reviewing all the information about a route's history and rolling stock. I've always been fascinated by tales of how Santa Fe was so shocked -- shocked, I tell you! -- over the "decline in service" when Amtrak took over the Super Chief that they yanked permission to use the name for several years.

What was Santa Fe expecting? And just how bad was the service, anyway? The Irish linen and fine china seem to have gone by the wayside, but Amtrak's Super Chief wasn't exactly a rolling Greyhound bus, was it? How did Santa Fe monitor the decline? Was there a checklist? I have this image of a white-gloved Franklin Pangborn and Edward Everett Horton boarding the train in Chicago and being horrified for more than 39 solid hours as they cluck and fuss their way from car to car.

Also, why didn't Amtrak just go with "Super Chief" again, instead of "Southwest Chief"?

Of course, considering all the once-venerable trademarks that have now been licensed to cheap imported goods and products never manufactured previously, I guess Santa Fe should be congratulated for protecting its image. Otherwise, we'd surely have seen El Capitan laxatives -- ALL THE WAY WITH SANTA FE!

Did any other railroads place restrictions on using their trademarks and servicemarks?

From what I understand, Santa Fe was miffed that Amtrak dropped the second dining car and allowed the peasant class to mix with the nobility of the sleepers during meals. Always before, after SF had combined the all sleeper Super Chief with the all coach El Capitan into one train, the passengers were kept apart. Amtrak just didn't have enough business to justify running 2 dining cars on one train. ATSF then withdrew the use of the "Chief" name and Amtrak was forced to switch to Southwest Limited for a few years, before things got settled and they were allowed to use Southwest Chief. Which is a better name the Super Chief to be honest.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I traveled on the Super Chief the last time in August 1970. The train & service was superb. I was allowed to to board at Dearborn Street Station at 5PM for the 6:30PM departure. By the time the train left, I was seated in Pleasure Dome. The bar was open an hour before departure so I was nursing a made to order cocktail. The food for the 5 meals enroute was excellent with menu options like a 5 star restaurant. The track was smooth with a 30 min early arrival in LA. I rode the combined Amtrak Super Chief/El Captain in June 1973. A few of the comer SF Staff but the attitude had changed. Many of the SF people went to work for upscale hotels or restaurants in Chicago or LA. The Amtrak train couldn't compare. The Way of the Chiefs was gone forever!

 

[Anderson]

I traveled on the Super Chief the last time in August 1970. The train & service was superb. I was allowed to to board at Dearborn Street Station at 5PM for the 6:30PM departure. By the time the train left, I was seated in Pleasure Dome. The bar was open an hour before departure so I was nursing a made to order cocktail. The food for the 5 meals enroute was excellent with menu options like a 5 star restaurant. The track was smooth with a 30 min early arrival in LA. I rode the combined Amtrak Super Chief/El Captain in June 1973. A few of the comer SF Staff but the attitude had changed. Many of the SF people went to work for upscale hotels or restaurants in Chicago or LA. The Amtrak train couldn't compare. The Way of the Chiefs was gone forever!

I suspect that's the answer right there: Amtrak failed to keep a lot of the staff on the nicer trains, and in losing them lost a lot of service quality that would've helped buffer the rebound in ridership in the mid-1970s. Part of the problem was probably also pressure on Amtrak to keep closing operating losses (particularly as they burned through their capital pile; remember, Amtrak got a large "startup" capital infusion in 1970, which is why there are only minimal subsidies noted in the early part of the decade). So Amtrak went from being simply a new name on the side of the train which consolidated the existing operations (not the worst idea, and they undoubtedly managed to cut a lot of costly redundancy out of the system where 2-3 RRs were serving a given route) to suffering from a rapid deterioration.

Mind you, I've also heard some "fun" stories of purposeful mismanagement on a few routes and of some of the equipment, but to be fair to Amtrak, a portion of that may have well come from the bad equipment that the Penn Central dumped in their laps ("roach coaches" from their lower-tier trains, as compared with the dining cars that are still in use), not to mention SP's Kill The Sunset Crusade.

 

[Ocala Mike]

In today's terms, the way ATSF ran the Super Chief/El Capitan was not "politically correct" (can you say "class warfare"), and could never have been viable on "America's railroad" which, after all, was initially resistant to have any NAMED trains at all. Amtrak, nee Railpax, wanted numbers only for all trains at first in an effort to distance itself from the heritage operators. Fortunately, in my opinion, cooler heads prevailed.

Of course, one could argue that we've come full circle what with Club Acela, Business Class, quiet cars, etc.

 

[zepherdude]

This topic was a cool read and there was indeed a big service change on the from Super Chief to the Southwest Chief. It was all about First Class Amenities and personal service. Gourmet meals and table service were a huge issue, I read that fine champagne and caviar were served in the Fred Harvey Dining Car. There was a barber shop in a club car and of course the traditional rear observation car. At one time a personal secretary was available for dictation and sending Western Union Telegrams as well as professional baby sitting and child care attendants. All of the Hollywood brass hats used to travel on the Super Chief and of course the "Porters" had to extend Pullman style service and kiss royal rears.

As Pan Am took over the market, passengers received a what they perceived as faster and better service with the "Coffee, Tea or Me" style attitude. The articles I read went on to explain lots of dissatisfaction started when the El Capitan and Super Chief were combined, as was discussed above, the riff raff in coach had to dine with the first class customers. I remember some friends had taken the Super Chief and and raved about the service and condition of the trip.

I realize that some readers long for those days again, happier times, more formal settings and a return to the amenities of past glories, including caviar, tea and crumpets. I for one, am not. I have given all my suits and ties to the Goodwill and wear jeans and short socks. I am liberated! I like to travel, have fun and relax. I think the world is constantly changing and usually for the better. Trains did not adapt soon enough and debt piled on, hence, Amtrak. A relaxed style and few frills, meals are what they are and not to be confused with 5 stars. The Super Chief is a great memory as is Pan Am, but, we are constantly changing, for the better, who knows, time will tell.

 

[lthanlon]

Folks I encounter who are unaware of Santa Fe history always assume that of Super Chief and El Capitan, the latter was the flagship train. I can see their point. "Super" has the feel of a cheesy marketeer's slogan, while "El Capitan" conveys a grand, romantic historical feel. Sort of Mickey Rooney vs. Cesar Romero.

 

[lthanlon]

From what I understand, Santa Fe was miffed that Amtrak dropped the second dining car and allowed the peasant class to mix with the nobility of the sleepers during meals.

Considering the fact Santa Fe deep-sixed passenger service at the formation of Amtrak, it sure took chutzpah to grouse about dropping a dining car.

 

[Anderson]

From what I understand, Santa Fe was miffed that Amtrak dropped the second dining car and allowed the peasant class to mix with the nobility of the sleepers during meals.

Considering the fact Santa Fe deep-sixed passenger service at the formation of Amtrak, it sure took chutzpah to grouse about dropping a dining car.

The understanding that I've come by on here is that Santa Fe was wringing their hands over handing their operations over to Amtrak (along with Southern and Seaboard). For a while, I don't think it was even clear if Amtrak was going to be an actual national system...if Seaboard and Southern had more or less stayed out, you'd only have had the Floridian running in the South at the outset (unless Amtrak got stuck running a few "stubby" services in the region). In a sense, Amtrak was a bailout for the Penn Central and the other lines that filed to drop services in response to the PC's move to cut everything between Pittsburgh/Buffalo and Chicago.

Given that Santa Fe was wringing their hands, they may have loaded some conditions onto their handover (I don't think it was considered an option for them to, say, offload everything they wanted to offload and simply keep the Super Chief or the Super Chief and the San Diegans) including the use of the trademark...and part of the deal might have included an understanding, informal or otherwise, that Amtrak would maintain service quality. It's entirely possible that Amtrak simply screwed the pooch on the understanding that Santa Fe got (i.e. that Santa Fe was simply handing over their passenger services department to be run more or less as it had been and getting rid of some third-string trains, not that service was going to be downgraded such as it was)...and I'll say that I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing applied to the Seaboard stuff. My guess is that Southern couldn't achieve a similar understanding, and so stuck it out as long as they could.

Edit: Another thought comes to mind. I don't know when the trademark got yanked, but I know there was a hard collapse in service quality at several points in the 1970s...which ended up with most trains having "tray meal service" by some of the 1980s timetables. I've heard no end of the horror stories, but it's entirely possible that things fell to the point that Santa Fe smelled trouble and was acting preemptively.

 

[zephyr17]

My understanding is that, while it was about the dining car, it was about dining car CAPACITY, not the class. Santa Fe thought that one 36 seat diner was insufficient for a train that had capacity of over 400 passengers.

It was Santa Fe's trademarked name, and they had the right to revoke it. Which I alwasy thought was the right thing to do...that train wasn't the Super Chief by 1973. BTW, they revoked the use of the Chief trademark entirely. The Super Chief became the Southwest Limited (not Chief) and the Texas Chief became the Lone Star. It was with Santa Fe's permission that the train regained its "Chief" in the 80s when it was renamed the Southwest Chief. Santa Fe thought that service standards had improved enough that they could use the Chief name again, although I don't know whether it was Santa Fe or Amtrak that decided not to go back to "Super Chief"

 

[Michael061282]

Part of this was actually discussed in Classic Trains recently. The story is called "Disbanding the Tribe" or something similar, its a seriously good read, written by an ATSF Passenger Higher Up type.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Railroads like the Santa Fe were somewhat like a large family with lots of employees and their families knowing each other. This was specially true of employees working on the passenger trains. Many of the upper managment employees knew the names of the long time conductors, brakemen, flagmen, Sleeping Car Attendants and Dining and Lounger Car Staff. The workers on the trains provided excellent service and received good compensation in the way of tips. A trip on any Santa Fe train from the Super Chief to the Grand Canyon was superb up until April 30, 1971. Many of the long time employees didn't want to work for Amtrak which was considered to be a beauracy. Because the Santa Fe employees had such excellent reputations, there were opportunities outside Amtrak. There is a very limited market today for the type of passenger service that Santa Fe and others provided in a time when getting to your destination was half the fun.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Santa Fe's interest in keeping the "Chief" name probably comes from the road's president, John Reed, who was an old-time railroad guy from the time railroads took pride in their passenger operations. Although Santa Fe cut trains left and right before Amtrak, they kept up service on the Super Chief/El Capitan as a matter of corporate pride. When Amtrak's service slipped to a middle of the road (a lot better than Penn Central but not near as good as Santa Fe/Great Northern/Seaboard Coast LIne), service, the old time management of Santa Fe took it as a personal insult and withdrew use of the trademarked Chief name. Today's railroad leadership, more MBA'S and lawyers than true railroad people, probably wouldn't give a fig about the situation.

 

[AKA]

Folks I encounter who are unaware of Santa Fe history always assume that of Super Chief and El Capitan, the latter was the flagship train. I can see their point. "Super" has the feel of a cheesy marketeer's slogan, while "El Capitan" conveys a grand, romantic historical feel. Sort of Mickey Rooney vs. Cesar Romero.

WOW I know those guys.

 

[Amtrak George]

Guys, the Santa Fe was a class act. Give 'em a break. They took pride in what they did and ran a darn good RR and an excellent passenger service. There wasn't a "peasant" class. When the El Cap and Super Chief were combined, there were still separate diners, both were good, and there was ample capacity. The Santa Fe really didn't want to join Amtrak and had they been able to eliminate their money losing secondary runs, they probably wouldn't have joined.

I rode the El Cap in 1967 and it was an impressive train (it was in the summer, and the Super Chief ran as a SEPARATE TRAIN a few minutes later).

I rode the SW Limited from Chicagoland to LA in the summer of 1978 (in a sleeper). The air conditioning was on the blink and despite some repair attempts never worked right the entire trip. I understood why the Santa Fe didn't want to be blamed for the problems...everyone associated the Super Chief with the Santa Fe.

I am a GM&O RR fan, an ICRR fan, and an Amtrak fan, and appreciate all railroads.

The AT&SF was a REAL railroad. Long may it run in our fond memories!

 

[Gord]

I traveled on the Super Chief the last time in August 1970. The train & service was superb. I was allowed to to board at Dearborn Street Station at 5PM for the 6:30PM departure. By the time the train left, I was seated in Pleasure Dome. The bar was open an hour before departure so I was nursing a made to order cocktail. The food for the 5 meals enroute was excellent with menu options like a 5 star restaurant. The track was smooth with a 30 min early arrival in LA. I rode the combined Amtrak Super Chief/El Captain in June 1973. A few of the comer SF Staff but the attitude had changed. Many of the SF people went to work for upscale hotels or restaurants in Chicago or LA. The Amtrak train couldn't compare. The Way of the Chiefs was gone forever!

That quality of food and excellence of service is still available on Via Rail's, Canadian, three days a week. Add to that 23 car trains of classic Budd stainlees steel equipment including 2 full diners and four domes. Then add a glass top Panaorama car through the Rockies. Want to experience what the best trains of the 1950's were like. This is your train, the closest you'll ever get to the original CZ.

I did a circle tour a couple of weeks ago, Canadian one way across Canada, EB. LSL & ML return. A++ for the Canadian, A+ for the EB (great crew, thanks, Stan, food not nearly as good as Via's), B- for the LSL. On the LSL, a couple of railfans (possibly from a fan publication) took a shot in the diner during the wine & cheese and were told by one of the servers that taking pictures on trains had been banned since 9/11! Via cost $1,600 for a rooomette, Amtrak $1,200.00 for a roomette for essentially the same distance trip.

Gord

 

[railiner]

Santa Fe's interest in keeping the "Chief" name probably comes from the road's president, John Reed, who was an old-time railroad guy from the time railroads took pride in their passenger operations. Although Santa Fe cut trains left and right before Amtrak, they kept up service on the Super Chief/El Capitan as a matter of corporate pride. When Amtrak's service slipped to a middle of the road (a lot better than Penn Central but not near as good as Santa Fe/Great Northern/Seaboard Coast LIne), service, the old time management of Santa Fe took it as a personal insult and withdrew use of the trademarked Chief name. Today's railroad leadership, more MBA'S and lawyers than true railroad people, probably wouldn't give a fig about the situation.

I think this is the closest to the answer. It was more of a personal thing for ATSF 'Chief' John Reed. He, as well as the likes of William Rice of SCL, and Graham Claytor of SR, struggled with the decision to join Amtrak. Reed and Rice gave in, as they had to satisfy their stockholders. Claytor held out, as did The D&RGW although the 'Grande' did more for operational reasons. And 'The Rock' couldn't afford the expensive 'buy in'.

Only Reed withdrew permission to use their name. When permission was granted later to use it when service improved, I believe Mr. Reed was out of the picture.

The only other name that was conspicuouly missing from Amtrak's use was 'The Twentieth Century Limited'. I don't know if Penn Central disallowed it, or more likely Amtrak itself felt they were not up to use that hallowed name.

 

[Anderson]

Santa Fe's interest in keeping the "Chief" name probably comes from the road's president, John Reed, who was an old-time railroad guy from the time railroads took pride in their passenger operations. Although Santa Fe cut trains left and right before Amtrak, they kept up service on the Super Chief/El Capitan as a matter of corporate pride. When Amtrak's service slipped to a middle of the road (a lot better than Penn Central but not near as good as Santa Fe/Great Northern/Seaboard Coast LIne), service, the old time management of Santa Fe took it as a personal insult and withdrew use of the trademarked Chief name. Today's railroad leadership, more MBA'S and lawyers than true railroad people, probably wouldn't give a fig about the situation.

I think this is the closest to the answer. It was more of a personal thing for ATSF 'Chief' John Reed. He, as well as the likes of William Rice of SCL, and Graham Claytor of SR, struggled with the decision to join Amtrak. Reed and Rice gave in, as they had to satisfy their stockholders. Claytor held out, as did The D&RGW although the 'Grande' did more for operational reasons. And 'The Rock' couldn't afford the expensive 'buy in'.

Only Reed withdrew permission to use their name. When permission was granted later to use it when service improved, I believe Mr. Reed was out of the picture.

The only other name that was conspicuouly missing from Amtrak's use was 'The Twentieth Century Limited'. I don't know if Penn Central disallowed it, or more likely Amtrak itself felt they were not up to use that hallowed name.

I've actually wondered about that absence for some time, particularly given Amtrak's propensity for trotting old names back out (i.e. the Capitol Limited). I can see the Lake Shore name sticking around for a while, but I'm surprised that the 20th Century was never brought back, name-wise...especially since I highly doubt that either American Premium Underwriters or CSX/NS would even have a claim on the trademark at this point.

On the DRG&W bit: What were the operational reasons for them resisting? I'd always considered that particular case to be a combination of limited losses and corporate pride.

 

[railiner]

From what I heard at the time, was that while corporate pride over the operation of the Zephyr had some bearing for the Rio Grande, it was more a fear of Amtrak running passenger trains whereever and whenever they wanted to over their various lines...

At the time, the 'Grande's' operating philosophy was to run "short, fast, and frequent" freight trains over their single track mountain route between Denver and Salt Lake City. While they could live with the three times per week in each direction train that was left of the old CZ, they did not want anymore than that to 'interfere' with their operation.

 

[guest]

Guys, the Santa Fe was a class act. Give 'em a break. They took pride in what they did and ran a darn good RR and an excellent passenger service. There wasn't a "peasant" class. When the El Cap and Super Chief were combined, there were still separate diners, both were good, and there was ample capacity. The Santa Fe really didn't want to join Amtrak and had they been able to eliminate their money losing secondary runs, they probably wouldn't have joined.

I rode the El Cap in 1967 and it was an impressive train (it was in the summer, and the Super Chief ran as a SEPARATE TRAIN a few minutes later).

I rode the SW Limited from Chicagoland to LA in the summer of 1978 (in a sleeper). The air conditioning was on the blink and despite some repair attempts never worked right the entire trip. I understood why the Santa Fe didn't want to be blamed for the problems...everyone associated the Super Chief with the Santa Fe.

I am a GM&O RR fan, an ICRR fan, and an Amtrak fan, and appreciate all railroads.

The AT&SF was a REAL railroad. Long may it run in our fond memories!

Hmmm...seems to be a discrepancy here!! From Wikipedia:

In 1958 the train was combined with the Super Chief and operated under train numbers 17 and 18 through the end of Santa Fe passenger operations. Today the route formerly covered by El Capitan is served by Amtrak's Southwest Chief. Many of Amtrak's trains consisted of a combination of refurbished former Santa Fe Hi-Level cars along with newer Superliner railcar designs until the early 2000s. In the late 1990s, five "mothballed" El Capitan lounge cars were removed from storage, refurbished, and placed into service on Amtrak's Coast Starlight as "Pacific Parlour" first-class lounge cars. These refurbished cars feature a service bar, booths, and chairs on the upper level, and a theater on the lower level.

and:

A typical El Capitan consist from the late 1960s (combined with the Super Chief):

* EMD FP45 Locomotive #104

* EMD FP45 Locomotive #101

The combined Super Chief / El Capitan, led by locomotive #44C (an EMD F7 sporting Santa Fe's classic Warbonnet paint scheme) pulls into Track 10 at Los Angeles' Union Passenger Terminal (LAUPT) on September 24, 1966.

* Baggage #3671

* Baggage #3553

* Baggage-Dormitory "Transition Car" #3478

* Hi-Level Step-down Chair car (68 seats) #549

* Hi-Level Chair car (72 seats) #731

* Hi-Level Diner (80 seats) #654

* Hi-Level Lounge (88 seats) #575

* Hi-Level Chair car (72 seats) #725

* Hi-Level Step-down Chair car (68 seats) #542

* Sleeper Pine Cove (10 roomettes, 6 double bedrooms)

* Sleeper Indian Mesa (11 double bedrooms)

* "Turquoise Room"-"Pleasure Dome"-Lounge #504

* Fred Harvey Company Diner #600 (48 seats)

* Sleeper Indian Flute (11 double bedrooms)

* Sleeper Palm Leaf (10 roomettes, 6 double bedrooms)

 

[Anderson]

Actually, you raise a good point that did briefly pass through my mind: I could see concern that Amtrak would revive the CZ and leave them dealing with a train that might be three hours late coming into Denver from Chicago (or into SLC from EMY). That actually raises a good question: DRG&W had the Rio Grande Zephyr running three times a week, while UP's "City of Everywhere" ran daily. Considering that it would have been otherwise unheard of in the consolidation to increase a frequency anywhere, would Amtrak have been able to force the CZ over that segment to daily status? Or would they have been stuck with either an irregular routing (a la the NCH/EB in the 70s) or a three-times-a-week train (either CHI-EMY or at least DEN-EMY)?

 

[Michael061282]

Amtrak was going to run the CZ as a daily train over the D&RGW, but at the last minute (four days before May 1 according to Wikipedia), certainly less then a couple of weeks before Amtrak began operations, the Rio Grand pulled out of the deal. We can all speculate as to why. I've even heard rumors that Amtrak had considered a 2nd frequency over that route and that scared the Rio Grande off. Honestly it was 11 years before I came into being so I have to rely on whats published. All I know is I rode the (Amtrak) Zephyr for the first time when I was 7, fell in love with it and have almost been obsessed with the train since then. The best Amtrak ride I've ever had was a detour through Feather River.

 

[cirdan]

I've actually wondered about that absence for some time, particularly given Amtrak's propensity for trotting old names back out (i.e. the Capitol Limited). I can see the Lake Shore name sticking around for a while, but I'm surprised that the 20th Century was never brought back, name-wise...especially since I highly doubt that either American Premium Underwriters or CSX/NS would even have a claim on the trademark at this point.

maybe because that name is so 20th Century, and Amtrak wants to be a modern railroad, not a retro-style setup.

 

[railiner]

I've actually wondered about that absence for some time, particularly given Amtrak's propensity for trotting old names back out (i.e. the Capitol Limited). I can see the Lake Shore name sticking around for a while, but I'm surprised that the 20th Century was never brought back, name-wise...especially since I highly doubt that either American Premium Underwriters or CSX/NS would even have a claim on the trademark at this point.

maybe because that name is so 20th Century, and Amtrak wants to be a modern railroad, not a retro-style setup.

That was somewhat true, but Amtrak also wanted to maintain recognition for what was the best of railroad tradition, at the same time. They used many of the best of the old named trains. And they made quaint references in places like the dining cars for fare such as "railroad french toast" or "railroad pot of coffee", etc.

In 1971, even though it was gone for four years or so, the name Twentieth Century Limited, was still argueably the most famous train name in the world, with the best reputation.

 

[railiner]

Amtrak did indeed plan to run the CZ. See http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0016 as evidence....

They were not going to use the 'Overland Route' at all, at first.

And if D&RGW did 'join' Amtrak, they would have been obligated to operate whatever and wherever Amtrak chose on their road, even places that currently had no service, such as the Royal Gorge route. As for the Joint Line, Amtrak could have used that anyway, as an 'ATSF Amtrak train'.