Just how declasse was Amtrak's Super Chief?

[railiner]

Another similar example of the Super Chief/El Capitan operation was the similar one on the Illinois Central. The formerly all-Pullman Panama Limited was combined with an all-coach Magnolia Star sometime around 1967. They too were separated into separate sections during holidays.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The Magnolia Star was never a separate train. The name originated when the IC added coaches to the Panama. This was late in the railroad-operated passenger train game and I don't think they ever ran as actual separate trains.

 

[railiner]

The Magnolia Star was never a separate train. The name originated when the IC added coaches to the Panama. This was late in the railroad-operated passenger train game and I don't think they ever ran as actual separate trains.

Thinking back, I believe you are right. Thanks for the correction. As for 'separate', perhaps the passengers were restricted to their respective porttions of that train?

Another case that comes to mind was the PRR Broadway around the same time--1967. It lost its all-Pullman status as well then, when coaches were added to it.

IIRC, the new "Broadway", was really the renamed 'General', as when the coaches were added, the General name was dropped, and the Broadway ran on the former General's schedule.

 

[alanh]

I have to wonder if the old unused trademarks are still valid, as trademarks normally run on a use it or lose it basis. Sometimes companies will make a token use of a trademark to keep it valid, thought. For example, Chevron has a handful of stations with "Standard" on the sign rather than Chevron to keep the Standard Oil trademark from expiring. It's possible that if they license it out for use in model railroads, that might keep it alive.

 

[dlagrua]

Back in the day the private railroads who ran the passenger lines were in competition with each other. In order to attract passenger traffic the railroads went through hoops to accomodate passengers with an ever increasing amount of creature comforts...superior world class food and drink, nicely decorated observation lounges, impeccable porter service, thick spring mattresses in the bedrooms and even manicurists and barber shops on some trains. On any trip West you could eat a world class dinner on fine china and glassware, have your shoes shined, your suits pressed and get a fresh haircut.

Today the lack of service reflects that Amtrak is in competition with no one. While the service and food is not terrible, its just a small offering compared to what was provided on the private railroad lines of the past.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I have to wonder if the old unused trademarks are still valid, as trademarks normally run on a use it or lose it basis. Sometimes companies will make a token use of a trademark to keep it valid, thought. For example, Chevron has a handful of stations with "Standard" on the sign rather than Chevron to keep the Standard Oil trademark from expiring. It's possible that if they license it out for use in model railroads, that might keep it alive.

That's what UP does. Those "Heritage" locomotives aren't just nods to history, they keep UP's rights to all the old railroad names and heralds. UP then charges model makers to use those names and heralds.

 

[Anderson]

Back in the day the private railroads who ran the passenger lines were in competition with each other. In order to attract passenger traffic the railroads went through hoops to accomodate passengers with an ever increasing amount of creature comforts...superior world class food and drink, nicely decorated observation lounges, impeccable porter service, thick spring mattresses in the bedrooms and even manicurists and barber shops on some trains. On any trip West you could eat a world class dinner on fine china and glassware, have your shoes shined, your suits pressed and get a fresh haircut.

Today the lack of service reflects that Amtrak is in competition with no one. While the service and food is not terrible, its just a small offering compared to what was provided on the private railroad lines of the past.

Yes and no. Amtrak does not have railroad competition (unless you count VIA, and the lack of any decent Toronto/Montreal-Chicago connection removes that for all intents and purposes), but it is definitely in competition with the airlines, the bus companies, and the automobile.

 

[The Chief]

Santa Fe's interest in keeping the "Chief" name probably comes from the road's president, John Reed, who was an old-time railroad guy from the time railroads took pride in their passenger operations. Although Santa Fe cut trains left and right before Amtrak, they kept up service on the Super Chief/El Capitan as a matter of corporate pride. When Amtrak's service slipped to a middle of the road (a lot better than Penn Central but not near as good as Santa Fe/Great Northern/Seaboard Coast LIne), service, the old time management of Santa Fe took it as a personal insult and withdrew use of the trademarked Chief name. Today's railroad leadership, more MBA'S and lawyers than true railroad people, probably wouldn't give a fig about the situation.

Mike, John Reed actually had an MBA from Harvard (his bachelor's made him a Yalie).

Mr. Reed noted when revoking the Super Chief name from Amtrak, "It's no longer super."

You're right, Mr. Reed was a "railroad guy." In fact, he wanted to be a (steam) locomotive engineer, but was discouraged from that endeavor due to his Ivy League education. Instead he worked in various positions in the Operating Department in different states on the system. My father introduced me to Mr. Reed when I was a boy and he said, "It's always nice to meet another John."

This is a neat thread. The financial loss of the U.S. Mail contracts compelled ATSF into the Amtrak fold. Yet the corporate sentiment present when Reed yanked the Chief names (Amtrak's Texas Chief had to become the Lone Star) is still visible today with BNSF's commitment to OTP when dispatching Amtrak*.

All the way to Amtrak Day Santa Fe set the standard for passenger service, from the wheels to the meals. While a lot of the Hollywood set rode the Super, my dad told me many rode The Chief, as they could be more under the radar. The Super first sailed in 1936, El Cap a couple of years later, and The Chief in 1926. The Chief was all-Pullman until the 1950s.

Interestingly, even after ATSF's Super and El Cap were combined, there were years during summers and Christmas when multiple sections would run due to demand, just like Amtrak George said earlier.

In a way it's ironic that the quasi-public NRPC, instituted to take over passenger service from its precursors, often has shown a propensity to neglect service, compared with the service sentinels of the past. But we've got the CCC today and that makes up for everything else, right?

* Disclaimer for Empire Builder 2011,,,

 

[railiner]

Santa Fe's interest in keeping the "Chief" name probably comes from the road's president, John Reed, who was an old-time railroad guy from the time railroads took pride in their passenger operations. Although Santa Fe cut trains left and right before Amtrak, they kept up service on the Super Chief/El Capitan as a matter of corporate pride. When Amtrak's service slipped to a middle of the road (a lot better than Penn Central but not near as good as Santa Fe/Great Northern/Seaboard Coast LIne), service, the old time management of Santa Fe took it as a personal insult and withdrew use of the trademarked Chief name. Today's railroad leadership, more MBA'S and lawyers than true railroad people, probably wouldn't give a fig about the situation.

Mike, John Reed actually had an MBA from Harvard (his bachelor's made him a Yalie).

Mr. Reed noted when revoking the Super Chief name from Amtrak, "It's no longer super."

You're right, Mr. Reed was a "railroad guy." In fact, he wanted to be a (steam) locomotive engineer, but was discouraged from that endeavor due to his Ivy League education. Instead he worked in various positions in the Operating Department in different states on the system. My father introduced me to Mr. Reed when I was a boy and he said, "It's always nice to meet another John."

This is a neat thread. The financial loss of the U.S. Mail contracts compelled ATSF into the Amtrak fold. Yet the corporate sentiment present when Reed yanked the Chief names (Amtrak's Texas Chief had to become the Lone Star) is still visible today with BNSF's commitment to OTP when dispatching Amtrak*.

All the way to Amtrak Day Santa Fe set the standard for passenger service, from the wheels to the meals. While a lot of the Hollywood set rode the Super, my dad told me many rode The Chief, as they could be more under the radar. The Super first sailed in 1936, El Cap a couple of years later, and The Chief in 1926. The Chief was all-Pullman until the 1950s.

Interestingly, even after ATSF's Super and El Cap were combined, there were years during summers and Christmas when multiple sections would run due to demand, just like Amtrak George said earlier.

In a way it's ironic that the quasi-public NRPC, instituted to take over passenger service from its precursors, often has shown a propensity to neglect service, compared with the service sentinels of the past. But we've got the CCC today and that makes up for everything else, right?

* Disclaimer for Empire Builder 2011,,,

I agree with your observations regarding 'corporate sentiment present' of the BNSF.

Too bad the UP doesn't seem to share that sentiment today as well. The UP at one time was also among those that put there best effort out to the end. They alone continued to own and operate steam locomotives for public excursions. And at the time they coninued their heritage of having the biggest motive power with those huge DDA40X 'Centennial' locomotives.

I may be wrong, but the change in attitude towards Amtrak seemed to be at the time of UP's merger with MP. It seemed to me that the MP sort of became the 'soul' of UP.

I remember the early years of Amtrak. The San Francisco Zephyr would often times come to the UP from the SP at Ogden an hour and a half late. The UP would then 'show their stuff' and bring it into Denver on time. Similar in the other direction. The BN would be late into Denver, and the UP would deliver to the SP on time. Consistently.

 

[Anderson]

railiner,

I think UP had a mixed record there. On the one hand, I know what you're saying; on the other hand, UP made it clear that they wanted nothing to do with any Amtrak trains they could avoid hosting. My guess is that they had a negative attitude towards continuing to host services...but if they were going to host them, they were damn well going to do it right.

 

[jphjaxfl]

On May 1,1971,the only Amtrak train that operated over the UP was City of SF between Denver & Ogden &G only because DRG &W didn't join Amtrak. The UP' s City of Everywhere was a mess in its last year and could not compare with the SuperChief/El Captain. UP made it clear. they wanted no part of Amtrak and 40 yrs.later its still the same.

.

 

[Chatter163]

From what I understand, Santa Fe was miffed that Amtrak dropped the second dining car and allowed the peasant class to mix with the nobility of the sleepers during meals.

What sarcastic class warfare-inciting dribble.

 

[Anderson]

On May 1,1971,the only Amtrak train that operated over the UP was City of SF between Denver & Ogden &G only because DRG &W didn't join Amtrak. The UP' s City of Everywhere was a mess in its last year and could not compare with the SuperChief/El Captain. UP made it clear. they wanted no part of Amtrak and 40 yrs.later its still the same.

.

Could you elaborate slightly about what you mean when you say that the City of Everywhere "was a mess"?

 

[jphjaxfl]

The combined City of Los Angeles, City of San Francisco, City of Portland, City of Denver & City of Kansas City were combined into one train in Sept,1969. The main section left Chicago and went to North Platte,NE where The City of Denver split off, then onto Cheyenne (Borie )where City of KC cars were added, then on to Green River,WY where City of Portland split off,then on to Ogden, where 3 days a week The City of SF split with the City of LA continuing daily to LA. The eastward time keeping was horrible because if one of sections was running late,the entire train had to wait. I had friends riding the City of Portland who sat on the train 6 hours waiting on the City of LA/SF in Green River. Unlike Santa Fe who split the Super Chief /El Capitan in peak periods,UP ran no extra trains. The service in last year was not as good,however, UP did have the Dome Dining Car,but I think that even that didn't last til the end. With the chronic lateness the City of Everywhere was not very popular.

 

[Donctor]

The service in last year was not as good,however, UP did have the Dome Dining Car,but I think that even that didn't last til the end.

My understanding is that the dome diner was taken off in 1970.