Kansas City-Oklahoma City Expansion Inspection Train

[Anderson]

Remember, both the Pioneer and the Desert Wind ran as separate self standing trains with no through cars for several years before through cars were introduced. The cross platform connection was basically at some odd time for both at Ogden.

The Heartland Flyer runs as a self standing train with no through cars today.

So such is not unheard of either.

Yes, but the Flyer's transfer is a daytime transfer and I think that does matter. As to the Pioneer/Desert Wind case, I have to suspect that not having through cars did not help either train's performance...but to analyze that I'd need a bunch of hard data from 20-35 years ago. I'm also strongly presuming that the extended Flyer wouldn't have a sleeper...which starts to resemble 66/67 (which nearly collapsed when the sleeper was cut, or so I'm told).

 

[Lonestar648]

Having the SWC connection at Newton in the early morning hours with no through cars makes the trip difficult for Coach passengers and negates the benefit of a sleeper.

 

[jis]

Of course having through cars is better than not having through cars and having sleepers is better than not having sleepers etc. That is not the point. I think we spend to much time and effort trying to gold plate everything to the point that it all becomes cost prohibitive and is dropped. We should be able to be more agile in grabbing opportunities to start a service rather than wait for perfection. Irrespective of whether lack of through cars hurt ridership on the Pioneer and Desert Wind or not, people had service in those routes for several years which they would not have had if everyone waited for perfection back then.

 

[the_traveler]

Both the DW and Pioneer had thru cars. I had taken both when both were split from the CZ at SLC - including both sleepers and coaches.

 

[Lonestar648]

I also took the through DW Sleeper to/from Chicago.

I think the schedule and north end termination point will be critical to the success. To run the train to KCY as a separate train, will mean negotiating for track space both directions, when it may be easier to get approval just to Newton. I think the through car concept, if inventory allowed, would be popular like the tri-weekly Texas Eagle on the Sunset Limited. This has to be an option being considered in order to maximize the available passenger space. How many will only travel if through cars or a train to KCY? Is that enough to merit the additional inventory. Not where they are taking their numbers from to make the decision.

 

[jis]

Both the DW and Pioneer had thru cars. I had taken both when both were split from the CZ at SLC - including both sleepers and coaches.

They did not for many years when they started initially. They connected across the platform with the SFZ (there was no CZ back then), at Ogden. The SFZ did not go to SLC. Only the Desert Wind and Pioneer went to SLC.

 

[railiner]

Both the DW and Pioneer had thru cars. I had taken both when both were split from the CZ at SLC - including both sleepers and coaches.

They did not for many years when they started initially. They connected across the platform with the SFZ (there was no CZ back then), at Ogden. The SFZ did not go to SLC. Only the Desert Wind and Pioneer went to SLC.

They also connected at SLC (although at separate stations) with the tri-weekly Rio Grande Zephyr. It is interesting trivia, but after a few years of no trains between Ogden and Salt Lake City, now there were two trains each way, at least until the SFZ became the CZ, and rerouted thru SLC....

 

[railiner]

I want the Lone Star (aka Texas Chief!) back!

I still have no idea why they haven't even considered extending the HF to Houston. I don't know why Texas would spend money for a train almost entirely for Oklahoma residents (who in the DFW area wants to go to Oklahoma on a regular basis?) If I'm Texas I tell Oklahoma to chip in to extend the HF to HOS or we will pull out of funding it as it is worthless to Texas residents.

If you think about it, who really benefits if folks from Oklahoma ride the train to Fort Worth/Dallas to spend their money?

Then by that logic Illinois benefits far more from the Hoosier State and Hiawatha than Indiana/Wisconsin and New York benefits far more from the Pennsylvanian than Pennsylvania.

The Pennsylvanian carries more traffic wholly within Pennsylvania than all the way to New York City ...Harrisburg and Philadelphia are probably major destinations for those in western PA.

I would agree with your statement somewhat on the Hoosier State...Chicago would be the big beneficiary.

As for the Hiawatha's...probably even there, as there is probably some commuting on that route...and the commuters benefit, as they earn a living in another state, and take most of it home with them...

But yes, as other's have pointed out...everyone benefits with more trains on more routes....

 

[AmtrakLKL]

The inspection equipment is moving on 19 arriving NOL tonight, then to SAS and FTW via 1 and 22, respectively.

Isn't 22 detouring from TAY to LVW on the old Mopac Eagle Route till 6/22.
This means no Train to FTW unless there is a Special or the cars are carried on a Freight!

No detour on June 8. There will be a bus bridge between FTW and LVW. 21(07) will turn back at LVW as 22(08) while 22(08) will turn at FTW to 21(07) after they drop the inspection equipment off.

 

[Anderson]

Of course having through cars is better than not having through cars and having sleepers is better than not having sleepers etc. That is not the point. I think we spend to much time and effort trying to gold plate everything to the point that it all becomes cost prohibitive and is dropped. We should be able to be more agile in grabbing opportunities to start a service rather than wait for perfection. Irrespective of whether lack of through cars hurt ridership on the Pioneer and Desert Wind or not, people had service in those routes for several years which they would not have had if everyone waited for perfection back then.

My concern isn't getting a "perfect" situation, it's avoiding a major bust. I'd hold up the Spirit of California as a great example of lousy equipment allocations ultimately killing a train: I've been told that the train regularly ran with two sleepers (usually sold out or pretty well-sold) and several coaches (mostly empty for the overnight chunk of the trip), contributing to the train only hitting about 50% of its ridership target and falling short on revenue. The result was that the train was unable to survive when a round of cuts came (albeit from the state, not the feds).

In this case what I'm worried happens is the Flyer gets extended as far as Newton and you get a lot of passengers who wonder "Why in the [bleep] would I want to go to Newton?" To their credit, yes, Wichita would get service; what I really want to avoid is getting a lousy service that lasts a year or two before someone decides that it's cheaper to refund the Feds than it is to keep running an empty train. Don't forget that the Desert Wind and Pioneer weren't subject to line-item funding.

Also, I'm looking over the timetables for them and it looks like there were through cars by 1982 (I see explicit mention of a through coach for both trains and the timetable seems to say that the sleepers are Chicago-Los Angeles/Chicago-Seattle by then (the coaches are listed as originating in SLC/Ogden except for a thru coach on each train); in the 1981 timetable it indicates the thru coach but the sleeper is explicitly "Salt Lake City-Seattle/Ogden-Los Angeles". Basically it proceeds from being "connecting trains" with decent hours in 1980 [1] to through coaches in 1981 to sending a lot of stuff through in 1982 (coincidentally or not, when Claytor took over).

What this tells me is that making a bunch of sleeper passengers change trains was not a winning move, even during the day. I can't speak to the ridership numbers in 1980, but somehow I do not think through traffic was blowing the doors off at that point and there's a good chance that Amtrak was more "not in a position to axe the trains" (the Desert Wind was the result of a lot of pressure from Howard Cannon and brought to you by the number 51) than keeping them for their stellar ridership stats. As to running an overnight-ish train without a sleeper, the only other real example of that I can think of is 66/67.

As an aside, a picture of some Desert Wind consists from the early years shows the most motley mix of equipment...I see a Heritage baggage car, Heritage sleeper, Amfleet cafe, Hi-Level coach (I strongly suspect it was a step-up coach), and two Superliner coaches. Wow.

Back on topic, my feeling is that though it would be lousy practice from a connectivity standpoint, the FTW-KCY day train is probably the more feasible of the two. Realistically it would probably be better to run both trains to KCY (where the overnight train would allow a through connection to the SWC/River Runner) but everything I have seen says that the extended Flyer would perform poorly next to the daylight through service if I have to pick one.

[1] 2300 WB and 0700 EB are roughly what you're looking at in this era. 2300 isn't great (it's what we have now) but 0700 is a heck of a lot better than the 0300 we have today. Compare that to 0150/0420 in the timetable for this train...

 

[jis]

IMHO extending the HF just to Newton and not to Kansas City should be a bigger concern, and absent that unless there are through cars it should not be done probably.

Just extending to Newton would be slightly worse than if the NOL - Florida service terminated at Deland because of railroad's convenience to get the consist to Sanford Auto Train terminal for servicing.

Pioneer when it started was an 11pm departure 9pm arrival westbound with only Coach and Cafe service. It was introduced as an extended Regional train and not an LD train. The LD integration, Sleepers etc. happened later. IIRC it never had a full Diner in its incarnation where it got through cars from the CZ at SLC or before that when it was a standalone SLC - SEA train. It might have got one when it split at Denver.

Desert Wind also started as a Coach and Cafe Ogden - LAX service and Sleeper was added later.

The connecting time at Ogden for both was around midnight westbound and 7am-ish eastbound.

The deep desire to reroute the Zephyr via the Moffat line completely borked up the schedule at the Wasatch Front for the connections and the through cars, Even though they increased patronage some, they also dramatically increased cost of operation, which played a role in their demise.

The bottom line I think is that the issues involved are complex. Connectivity is important, but sometimes one can go overboard with it and in the process lose branch line service completely.

 

[railiner]

During the period the Pioneer and Desert Wind were combined with the California Zephyr, all the way from Chicago to Salt Lake City there were two diners...the "Chicago" diner went thru to Oakland, and the "LA" diner went to Los Angeles...the Pioneer picked up its diner-lounge at Salt Lake City. I left Denver before they started splitting the Pioneer there, so I am not certain, but they must have picked it up there, as the Pioneer no longer went thru Salt Lake City from then until its demise...

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I guess Amtrak and the states involve need to get to figure out the goal of this extension/expansion. Ideally you would have the connection between the SWC and HF but that leaves most of Kansas including Wichita in the dark. If Kansas DOT is going to help fund the expansion they'd probably want better times in Kansas (would you pay money to get 3am rail service in your state?) But scheduling the train as a day train between KCY and FTW would not only eliminate a possible HF-SWC connection but eliminate the current HF-TE connection.

 

[A Voice]

I guess Amtrak and the states involve need to get to figure out the goal of this extension/expansion. Ideally you would have the connection between the SWC and HF but that leaves most of Kansas including Wichita in the dark. If Kansas DOT is going to help fund the expansion they'd probably want better times in Kansas (would you pay money to get 3am rail service in your state?) But scheduling the train as a day train between KCY and FTW would not only eliminate a possible HF-SWC connection but eliminate the current HF-TE connection.

Let's see, which train do we think would attract more passengers and provide greater transportation utility to Kansas and Oklahoma (and points beyond). First, the train which passes through during the early a.m. overnight hours, or second, the status quo of the train which doesn't exist at all?

I'm not saying an overnight train is either the plan or the ideal schedule, certainly it is not, but for a skeletal passenger rail network (generally just one train a day) some locations are by definition going to be served during the night. Many other locations across the nation (Columbia, SC, etc.) still manage to see decently sized passenger counts, despite the supposed 'unmarketable' train times. Kansas wouldn't be the exception.

 

[the_traveler]

Even if the HF connect in KC, it would be evening westbound and morning eastbound. So service to Wichita and the rest of Kansas must be overnight.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I guess Amtrak and the states involve need to get to figure out the goal of this extension/expansion. Ideally you would have the connection between the SWC and HF but that leaves most of Kansas including Wichita in the dark. If Kansas DOT is going to help fund the expansion they'd probably want better times in Kansas (would you pay money to get 3am rail service in your state?) But scheduling the train as a day train between KCY and FTW would not only eliminate a possible HF-SWC connection but eliminate the current HF-TE connection.

Let's see, which train do we think would attract more passengers and provide greater transportation utility to Kansas and Oklahoma (and points beyond). First, the train which passes through during the early a.m. overnight hours, or second, the status quo of the train which doesn't exist at all?

I'm not saying an overnight train is either the plan or the ideal schedule, certainly it is not, but for a skeletal passenger rail network (generally just one train a day) some locations are by definition going to be served during the night. Many other locations across the nation (Columbia, SC, etc.) still manage to see decently sized passenger counts, despite the supposed 'unmarketable' train times. Kansas wouldn't be the exception.

But most of the other overnight stops are along federally funded routes. It's one thing for South Carolina to have graveyard shift but another if they got stuck with the graveyard shift and have to pay for it. Convince Kansas to pay for a train running through Wichita at 3am. That would be like the Carolinian running midnight-6am between CLT and RGH. Would they pay for it?

 

[acelafan]

Does anyone know the station codes for this trip? 952 shows departure from OKC but I don't know the stops. Thanks for any info.

 

[JNaismith]

Newspaper article on stops http://acdailybytes.com/officials-ride-amtrak-inspection-train

 

[railiner]

Surprised they aren't stopping at all the former Lone Star stops, including Norman. While it is fairly close to OKC, it is right next to the University of Oklahoma, and formerly a busy stop...

I suppose if the train does become scheduled, they will add the missed stops...

 

[acelafan]

Thanks but I need the 3 character station codes in ARROW. Working on validating them.

 

[JNaismith]

Heartland Flyer already stops at Norman.

 

[Seaboard92]

Stations that aren't on the current network do not have Arrow codes. So you won't find any. If you need to track the train try the Facebook foamer boards those generally have good info.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Thanks but I need the 3 character station codes in ARROW. Working on validating them.

Check your PMs.

 

[jis]

All former Lone Star Stops shown below. (1978 timetable). It is not stopping only at Lawrence...

• 7:45 a.m. — Oklahoma City Santa Fe Station (downtown)
• 8:30 a.m. — Guthrie, Oklahoma
• 9:15 a.m. — Perry, Oklahoma
• 10:00 a.m. — Ponca City, Oklahoma
• 10:45 a.m. — Arkansas City
  
• 12:05 p.m. — Wichita
  
• 1:00 p.m. — Newton
  
• 2:20 p.m. — Emporia
  
• 3:45 p.m. — Topeka
  
• --:-- p.m -- Lawrence
  
• 5:30 p.m. (projected arrival time) — Kansas City Union Station

Surprised they aren't stopping at all the former Lone Star stops, including Norman. While it is fairly close to OKC, it is right next to the University of Oklahoma, and formerly a busy stop...
I suppose if the train does become scheduled, they will add the missed stops...

Norman is between Oklahoma City and Fort Worth and the HF stops there. This train is traveling only between Oklahoma City and Kansas City.

The only missed stop at present is Lawrence KS.

 

[Agent]

Here's a couple videos from yesterday showing the special cars on the Heartland Flyer. This first one from Trinity Rail Productions shows AMTK 822 leading Amtrak #822 at Fort Worth.