Keystone Corridor/Pennsylvanian questions and Dual electric Locomotive

[Acela150]

And it will get even more interesting when the crew has to start dropping off through cars for the Capitol upon arrival in PGH and picking them back up the next morning as that will increase the amount of time they remain on the job.

I've always been hearing about that - is that something that's going to happen any time soon or just one of the thoughts that "it would make sense and it might happen but no immediate plans?"

AFAIK, Amtrak is currently waiting on NS to complete some switch & track work

And that track work has been taking quite a while that to me it's a myth.

 

[jis]

Track work tends to take a long time unless one starts doing the track work.

 

[Trogdor]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Just wondering....don't they have yard crews in Harrisburg that could do the engine change, or if not, couldn't the Philly crew have more time available on their shorter turn to do the change? Or does the Philly crew actually come all the way from New York?

Why change in Harrisburg? It would take longer because of the switching moves than making the change in Philadelphia (which is required anyway because the train changes ends in PHL and the Pennsylvanian doesn't run with a cab car).

 

[Jeremy]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Just wondering....don't they have yard crews in Harrisburg that could do the engine change, or if not, couldn't the Philly crew have more time available on their shorter turn to do the change? Or does the Philly crew actually come all the way from New York?

Why change in Harrisburg? It would take longer because of the switching moves than making the change in Philadelphia (which is required anyway because the train changes ends in PHL and the Pennsylvanian doesn't run with a cab car).

hello, yes the crew that brings it to Harrisburg is actually a Philly crew but they usually take a train to NYC first or deadhead and then bring the 43 from NYC to Harrisburg. They have one yard crew in Harrisburg as opposed to many in Philly so they have more manpower to switch there. also, they only keep one diesel engine on hand in Harrisburg and that is a protect engine in case something happens to a keystone then the Harrisburg yard crew will rescue them.

as for the extra cars and switching in Pitt. I don't see that happening anytime soon. they used to do all that when they ran the Broadway Limited and then later the Three Rivers because they went through Pitt to Chicago. the only way we will be adding or dropping off cars is if they add another train from NYC that goes right through to Chicago again. The only sure thing we've heard on the Pennsy is that we will be getting a baggage car sometime this spring to alleviate all of the massive baggage issues we have since we only have carry on or luggage racks in our coaches and that becomes cumbersome when you have people getting on in NY or Philly and will be transferring to the Capitol in Pitt with checked baggage. we end up having baggage all over the place by the time we get to Pitt.

and finally for the person that was asking if we are 45-50 minutes late. if we get to Pitt on time then we have a 2 hour window to Wye the train and make it back to the station to insure proper rest. If we don't make it on time then they have to call another crew off the extra board to deadhead to Pitt and take the train in the morning and we end up either riding back to Harrisburg as passengers in the morning, or we take a van back from pitt to harrisburg as soon as we arrive in pitt. we only take the van if we're really really late and our bosses know there is no chance we will be making it. that way they have us back home in time to get rested and do it all over again from Harrisburg to Pitt the next day.

 

[afigg]

AFAIK, Amtrak is currently waiting on NS to complete some switch & track work

And that track work has been taking quite a while that to me it's a myth.

There may be a simple reason why the switch and track work has not been done yet. Why should Amtrak pay for it and NS do the work, if the switch won't be used for several years? The delivery of the Viewliner II has been delayed. The first units were originally supposed to be delivered by late 2012, now it is supposed to be early 2014. With the 25 new sleeper cars at the end of the production run in later 2015, if the CAF deliveries don't slip further.
So if adding pass-through cars to the CL is not going to happen before late 2015 at the earliest, why install tracks that won't be used so far in advance? Amtrak has been dealing with declining federal appropriations the past 3 fiscal years. Postponing a track project until it can be put to use is an easy decision to make with limited capital project funds.

 

[AlanB]

AFAIK, Amtrak is currently waiting on NS to complete some switch & track work

And that track work has been taking quite a while that to me it's a myth.

There may be a simple reason why the switch and track work has not been done yet. Why should Amtrak pay for it and NS do the work, if the switch won't be used for several years? The delivery of the Viewliner II has been delayed. The first units were originally supposed to be delivered by late 2012, now it is supposed to be early 2014. With the 25 new sleeper cars at the end of the production run in later 2015, if the CAF deliveries don't slip further.
So if adding pass-through cars to the CL is not going to happen before late 2015 at the earliest, why install tracks that won't be used so far in advance? Amtrak has been dealing with declining federal appropriations the past 3 fiscal years. Postponing a track project until it can be put to use is an easy decision to make with limited capital project funds.

I'm not sure if it is still the plan, but for a while there was talk that the through cars would start with just the coaches & cafe car. Then when a sleeper became available it would be added to the mix.

Of course plans could have changed since then.

 

[grover5995]

Dual-power trains might work well in CA if they ever electrify the LA-San Diego line. Virgin Rail has been running dual-power trains in Britain for quite a while with top speed of 125mph (electric) or 90mph (diesel). These trainsets would work well on the runs north to Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo.

 

[Nathanael]

AFAIK, Amtrak is currently waiting on NS to complete some switch & track work; before they can even consider starting the service. And a through sleeper will most likely have to wait until the bulk of the 25 new Viewliner II sleepers are operational.

I can't remember where I read it, but I read over a year ago that NS was ready to do the switch and track work when Amtrak was ready.
There are several other things which could be delaying this.

One thing is that the through car service requires at *least* an additional coach or two, and preferably an additional sleeper -- the sleepers certainly aren't available yet. Appropriate "long-distance" configuration coaches aren't available, either. And frankly, even "corridor seating" coaches are in pretty short supply. I would guess the earliest likely date is 2015, when Viewliner II sleepers start being available, and when the Horizons start being displaced from Chicago by the new "bilevel corridor cars". Even then I'd expect it to take a while for Beech Grove to reconfigure some cars for long-distance seating. So maybe late 2015, or 2016?

Another thing is that the restoration of a platform face probably triggers the ADA rules, which will probably create a long set of arguments. *sigh*

Another thing is that the last published plan involved rescheduling the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited as well. That couldn't be done at all until CSX finished its tunnel clearance projects from Pittsburgh to DC (finished late in 2013) because those were being done during the new proposed timeslot for the Capitol Limited. This also requires new contracts with NS, CSX, Metro-North, and the MBTA. It may not make sense to negotiate new contracts when the timings from Schenectady to New York and Boston, and from South Bend to Chicago, are going to change a lot, repeatedly, in the next few years due to various under-construction projects; perhaps it's easier to change the schedule once and only once.

 

[cirdan]

Dual-power trains might work well in CA if they ever electrify the LA-San Diego line. Virgin Rail has been running dual-power trains in Britain for quite a while with top speed of 125mph (electric) or 90mph (diesel). These trainsets would work well on the runs north to Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo.

The trains Virgin runs are not actually dual power. They are electric multiple unit trains that can get pulled by a diesel locomotive when required. They also have diesel multiple units that look similar to the electric ones, but there are presently no true dual power units.

I think you might be thinking of SNCF. They have a fleet of dual diesel / electric trains built by Bombardier for use on TER services in various regions. Recently, an intercity version has also been ordered that will replace the Corail trains.

 

[jis]

A feasibility study was initiated in 2011 to study adding one coach to Class 220 Voyagers:

A feasibility study into adding an additional coach to each Voyager is being looked at by the Department For Transport jointly with Crosscountry and Bombardier (September 2011). This coach would have a pantograph and conversion equipment instead of a diesel engine, providing the Voyager units (Classes 220 and 221) with dual traction capability (diesel/electric and electric 25 kV).

I have no idea what, if anything, came of it.

 

[cirdan]

Why change in Harrisburg? It would take longer because of the switching moves than making the change in Philadelphia (which is required anyway because the train changes ends in PHL and the Pennsylvanian doesn't run with a cab car).

Is the diesel locomotive able to run at the same speeds and accelerations as the electrics? I guess operating fuel costs must be higher than electric costs, but obviously not sufficiently so to justify doing the change in Harrisburg.

 

[cirdan]

A feasibility study was initiated in 2011 to study adding one coach to Class 220 Voyagers:

A feasibility study into adding an additional coach to each Voyager is being looked at by the Department For Transport jointly with Crosscountry and Bombardier (September 2011). This coach would have a pantograph and conversion equipment instead of a diesel engine, providing the Voyager units (Classes 220 and 221) with dual traction capability (diesel/electric and electric 25 kV).

I have no idea what, if anything, came of it.

If my information is correct, that proposal has been dropped as it wasn't found to be good value for money (much the same problem as Amtrak encountered with wanting to add coaches to the Acelas, if you're tied in with one manufacturer you end up paying through the nose). But the dual power idea isn't totally dead as some new IEP trains are liekly to be ordered with dual capability instead. There is also a major push for new electrification going on, with significant sections of the Great Western, Midland as well as various bits up North likely to be electrified very soon or even actually being electrified right now. Of course at every intermediate step you have new challenges concerning how best to serve the bits of line that aren't yet electrified. And as total system electrification is unlikely in our lifetimes if indeed ever, there will be calls for this type of train for a long time to come.

 

[battalion51]

Why change in Harrisburg? It would take longer because of the switching moves than making the change in Philadelphia (which is required anyway because the train changes ends in PHL and the Pennsylvanian doesn't run with a cab car).

Is the diesel locomotive able to run at the same speeds and accelerations as the electrics? I guess operating fuel costs must be higher than electric costs, but obviously not sufficiently so to justify doing the change in Harrisburg.

The electrics are able to run at 125 MPH whereas the diesels are only ok for 110 MPH. The electrics definitely have better acceleration. I'm not 100% sure but as I recall the Keystone line has a maximum speed of 110, so the extra speed that the electric is theoretically good for is irrelevant. The differences would be in operating cost and acceleration.

 

[Trogdor]

Anything you save in acceleration would be more than lost by switching locomotives in HAR.

 

[B&Ofan]

I've always wondered why the engine change in DC takes 30 min. when they used to do it in New Haven in 10.

Amtrak has stated that they have no interest in dual modes at this time.

Disappointing, because I'd love to see them used for NEC-south trains. Traveling from Tidewater to BWI, it always seems like such a waste to sit in Washington for 30 minutes when you're so close to home.

Maybe after the ALP-45DP has some more history.

 

[battalion51]

I think part of that has to do with slotting differences between the corridor and CSX/NS. Over there on the RF&P if you miss your slot you could end up in a world of hurt with meeting/following VRE or a freight train. For Northbound trains at NHV you're going from Metro North to Amtrak, so getting priority isn't really an issue. However, southbound you run into the same sort of issue that you do at WAS because you're going on to Metro North. Don't forget that just because dwell time isn't shown at a station that padding isn't there. Classic example: Vermonter 56 advertised run from New Haven to Wallingford is 15 minutes, meanwhile 55 on the same stretch is advertised as 25 minutes. They just as easily could show NHV as being a 19 minute stop, but to show on time performance they put the fluff in to the schedule between two stations.

The process of doing the power change is a little bit easier at NHV simply because you have less distance between the platforms and the switches to make the change possible. Additionally, you can stage an engine just beyond the platform at NHV ready to come back and couple up as soon as the inbound power clears. At WAS it's more challenging because of the way the interlocking is set up on the north end, and tunnels preventing diesels from idling on the south end.