Keystone service to/from Suburban/Penn Center

[MisterRick]

Hopefully this is a simply question that someone can answer. When Did Amtrak cease Keystone service to/from the Suburban/Penn Center Station in Philadelphia? In my youth I travelled to Philly or the outskirts thereof and don't ever remember this being a stop on any of the trains including the Keystone. I always thought this was strictly a SEPTA station.

The last time I was on a Keystone train was in 1987, I originated from NYP, it then travelled to NWK, TRE, PHN, PHL, ARD and PAO (Where I got off).

Rick

 

[B&Ofan]

Hopefully this is a simply question that someone can answer. When Did Amtrak cease Keystone service to/from the Suburban/Penn Center Station in Philadelphia? In my youth I traveled to Philly or the outskirts thereof and don't ever remember this being a stop on any of the trains including the Keystone. I always thought this was strictly a SEPTA station.
The last time I was on a Keystone train was in 1987, I originated from NYP, it then traveled to NWK, TRE, PHN, PHL, ARD and PAO (Where I got off).

Rick

I don't know if Amtrak ever served Suburban/Penn Center Station. There is an old article in Trains Magazine the discusses the Old Broad St. Station in that location. After the station closed and the moved all trains to 30th street, they wanted to keep clocker service to NYC out of Suburban Station. However they discovered that even 2 GG1's couldn't pull an average length train up the grade designed for MU units and abandoned the idea. If the Pennsylvania Railroad couldn't do it, I doubt that Amtrak could. However I believe If you have an Amtrak ticket to 30th st the stub is valid on SEPTA to Suburban/Penn Center Station. This I believe is a carryover from the pre-Amtrak days.

 

[Eric S]

I just checked the Amtrak timetables at timetables.org and it appears that they stopped serving Suburban Station in the 1987-1988 period. Sorry, I realize that answer is not very specific.

 

[GaSteve]

Keystone service does not serve Suburban/Penn Center, but if you show the SEPTA conductor your Amtrak ticket to 30th St, SEPTA will get you there from 30th St.

 

[MisterRick]

Keystone service does not serve Suburban/Penn Center, but if you show the SEPTA conductor your Amtrak ticket to 30th St, SEPTA will get you there from 30th St.

Ok, I found what Eric was talking about, he's right it was 1987-1988 see this link

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=1...5&item=0025

But again when I was on the Keystone that particular train didn't happen to stop at Suburban/Penn Center.

Rick

 

[PRR 60]

...I don't know if Amtrak ever served Suburban/Penn Center Station. There is an old article in Trains Magazine the discusses the Old Broad St. Station in that location. After the station closed and the moved all trains to 30th street, they wanted to keep clocker service to NYC out of Suburban Station. However they discovered that even 2 GG1's couldn't pull an average length train up the grade designed for MU units and abandoned the idea. If the Pennsylvania Railroad couldn't do it, I doubt that Amtrak could. However I believe If you have an Amtrak ticket to 30th st the stub is valid on SEPTA to Suburban/Penn Center Station. This I believe is a carryover from the pre-Amtrak days.

SEPTA easily pulls (or pushes) seven and eight car trains up that grade with a single AEM-7. Maybe the one AEM-7 is better than two GG-1's? :lol: (sorry GG-1 - I couldn't help it).

Amtrak pulled out of Suburban to save money, and to allow the Keystones to also serve the PHL-NYP route. The honoring of Amtrak tickets between 30th Street and Suburban and Market East was part of the deal.

 

[jis]

Amtrak pulled out of Suburban to save money, and to allow the Keystones to also serve the PHL-NYP route. The honoring of Amtrak tickets between 30th Street and Suburban and Market East was part of the deal.

I am not sure, but isn't it the case that if you have an Amtrak ticket ex-30th St. or arriving there, you can use that ticket or stub to travel SPETA to any City Zone station by Regional Rail? I seem to recall that I was allowed to use an Amtrak ticket to go to University City from 30th St. But I must admit I have never read the exact wording of the rule.

 

[GG-1]

...I don't know if Amtrak ever served Suburban/Penn Center Station. There is an old article in Trains Magazine the discusses the Old Broad St. Station in that location. After the station closed and the moved all trains to 30th street, they wanted to keep clocker service to NYC out of Suburban Station. However they discovered that even 2 GG1's couldn't pull an average length train up the grade designed for MU units and abandoned the idea. If the Pennsylvania Railroad couldn't do it, I doubt that Amtrak could. However I believe If you have an Amtrak ticket to 30th st the stub is valid on SEPTA to Suburban/Penn Center Station. This I believe is a carryover from the pre-Amtrak days.

SEPTA easily pulls (or pushes) seven and eight car trains up that grade with a single AEM-7. Maybe the one AEM-7 is better than two GG-1's? :lol: (sorry GG-1 - I couldn't help it).

Amtrak pulled out of Suburban to save money, and to allow the Keystones to also serve the PHL-NYP route. The honoring of Amtrak tickets between 30th Street and Suburban and Market East was part of the deal.

Aloha

No Problem, But I find it difficult to think a G with 6,000 continuous HP 9,000 peak could perform less than some Swedish engine and out perform 2, unlikely. There must be something else involved.

 

[ExtonFlyer]

Amtrak pulled out of Suburban to save money, and to allow the Keystones to also serve the PHL-NYP route. The honoring of Amtrak tickets between 30th Street and Suburban and Market East was part of the deal.

I am not sure, but isn't it the case that if you have an Amtrak ticket ex-30th St. or arriving there, you can use that ticket or stub to travel SPETA to any City Zone station by Regional Rail? I seem to recall that I was allowed to use an Amtrak ticket to go to University City from 30th St. But I must admit I have never read the exact wording of the rule.

Unfortunately, that is incorrect. You can only travel from 30th Street thru Suburban/Penn Center to Market East. See here: http://www.septa.org/fares/ticket/index.html

I frequently travel on the Keystone line into PHL 30th Street and often have a need to get to University City. I have showed my amtrak ticket on several occasions while taking regional rail from PHL30 to University City and been forced to pay the outrageous $4 on-board fare to go maybe less than a half-mile.

I now either walk or take the LUCY shuttle(in bad weather) to get to my University City destinations.

 

[AlanB]

...I don't know if Amtrak ever served Suburban/Penn Center Station. There is an old article in Trains Magazine the discusses the Old Broad St. Station in that location. After the station closed and the moved all trains to 30th street, they wanted to keep clocker service to NYC out of Suburban Station. However they discovered that even 2 GG1's couldn't pull an average length train up the grade designed for MU units and abandoned the idea. If the Pennsylvania Railroad couldn't do it, I doubt that Amtrak could. However I believe If you have an Amtrak ticket to 30th st the stub is valid on SEPTA to Suburban/Penn Center Station. This I believe is a carryover from the pre-Amtrak days.

SEPTA easily pulls (or pushes) seven and eight car trains up that grade with a single AEM-7. Maybe the one AEM-7 is better than two GG-1's? :lol: (sorry GG-1 - I couldn't help it).

Amtrak pulled out of Suburban to save money, and to allow the Keystones to also serve the PHL-NYP route. The honoring of Amtrak tickets between 30th Street and Suburban and Market East was part of the deal.

Aloha

No Problem, But I find it difficult to think a G with 6,000 continuous HP 9,000 peak could perform less than some Swedish engine and out perform 2, unlikely. There must be something else involved.

My guess is that the engineer simply said "Oh G I can't make it up that hill and didn't bother to try." :lol:

 

[PRR 60]

I am not sure, but isn't it the case that if you have an Amtrak ticket ex-30th St. or arriving there, you can use that ticket or stub to travel SPETA to any City Zone station by Regional Rail? I seem to recall that I was allowed to use an Amtrak ticket to go to University City from 30th St. But I must admit I have never read the exact wording of the rule.

I initially thought you were right, but upon further investigation, the SEPTA Regional Rail Division Tarriff limits the honoring of Amtrak tickets or stubs to 30th Street, Suburban, and Market East. From the tarriff:

CROSS-HONORING OF AMTRAK TICKETS:
AMTRAK tickets are not accepted on SEPTA trains, except between Thirtieth Street and Market East Station. Passengers displaying a valid AMTRAK ticket will be carried between Thirtieth Street and Market East (and intermediate points) at no additional charge. This privilege is extended only when there exists a signed, written agreement between SEPTA and AMTRAK regarding this cross-honoring. AMTRAK tickets cannot otherwise be accepted for transportation on SEPTA Regional Rail Division service.

 

[wayman]

I am not sure, but isn't it the case that if you have an Amtrak ticket ex-30th St. or arriving there, you can use that ticket or stub to travel SPETA to any City Zone station by Regional Rail? I seem to recall that I was allowed to use an Amtrak ticket to go to University City from 30th St. But I must admit I have never read the exact wording of the rule.

I initially thought you were right, but upon further investigation, the SEPTA Regional Rail Division Tarriff limits the honoring of Amtrak tickets or stubs to 30th Street, Suburban, and Market East. From the tarriff:

CROSS-HONORING OF AMTRAK TICKETS:
AMTRAK tickets are not accepted on SEPTA trains, except between Thirtieth Street and Market East Station. Passengers displaying a valid AMTRAK ticket will be carried between Thirtieth Street and Market East (and intermediate points) at no additional charge. This privilege is extended only when there exists a signed, written agreement between SEPTA and AMTRAK regarding this cross-honoring. AMTRAK tickets cannot otherwise be accepted for transportation on SEPTA Regional Rail Division service.

Yes, the University City and Temple University stops, while technically "Zone C" (Center City), really aren't equivalent to the three "real" Center City stations in all ways.

For instance, you need a ticket to get to them.

It's not just that your Amtrak ticket will let you get between any two of 30th, Suburban, and Market East: in practice, your grocery receipt could do it too. Basically, 1/3 of the train's passengers get off -- and all of those seats refill with new riders -- at each of 30th, Suburban, and Market East. Adding to the chaos, Suburban Station is the crew change point on all Regional Rail trains, so on inbound trains from the west final ticket inspection is before 30th St; after the crew change at Suburban, first ticket inspection isn't until after Market East. For inbound trains from the east, it's just the reverse. There are never ticket inspections between 30th St and Market East, because of the huge change-over in passengers at each of these stops (4 minutes apart) coupled with the crew change in the middle. The new crews would never know which of the passengers the old crew had visited if any effort to do ticket collection took place immediately before crew change.

Basically, allowing Amtrak tickets for downtown traffic is a great courtesy, but it isn't costing SEPTA anything because they're already yielding those short-distance rides for free due to the nature of the "run-through" system where, for a few stops, a trainset is basically two trains (ie, one coming in from the west and ending in Center City, whose last three stops are 30th, Suburban, and Market East; and one starting in Center City and heading east, whose first three stops are 30th, Suburban, and Market East; or else the other way around).

 

[AlanB]

There are never ticket inspections between 30th St and Market East, because of the huge change-over in passengers at each of these stops (4 minutes apart) coupled with the crew change in the middle. The new crews would never know which of the passengers the old crew had visited if any effort to do ticket collection took place immediately before crew change.

Never say never!

It doesn't happen often, but I have had a few occasions where I've been asked for a ticket between Suburban and 30th. Once I was riding on SEPTA for real and had a SEPTA ticket to show, and at least once where I showed my Amtrak stub.

 

[jis]

There are never ticket inspections between 30th St and Market East, because of the huge change-over in passengers at each of these stops (4 minutes apart) coupled with the crew change in the middle. The new crews would never know which of the passengers the old crew had visited if any effort to do ticket collection took place immediately before crew change.

Never say never!

It doesn't happen often, but I have had a few occasions where I've been asked for a ticket between Suburban and 30th. Once I was riding on SEPTA for real and had a SEPTA ticket to show, and at least once where I showed my Amtrak stub.

Because I have never been sure what the ad hoc arrangements are between Amtrak and SEPTA I always have a city zone ticket handy just in case. Haven't had to use it yet. Then again I haven't had to show an Amtrak stub yet either. But as Alan says YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary). Curiously the SEPTA ticket agent got positively irritated when I asked for a city zone ticket. Go figure.

 

[PRR 60]

One way to virtually ensure that you will not be asked for a ticket is to use a train that is coming in from a suburban origination, going through center city, and out the other side to a suburban destination. These trains pick-up lots of riders at all three center city stops and, as wayman pointed out, the crew changes at Suburban. The old crew does not know you are simply heading for Center City, and the new crew will think you came in from the burbs and had your ticket lifted.

However, a significant number of SEPTA trains do not serve both sides of the system. If your train originates in center city, and you get off in center city, your going to get nabbed. If your train terminates in center city, and you get on in center city, your going to get nabbed. Of course, you can always carry an old Amtrak stub in your wallet. Think of it as a SEPTA center city annual pass.

 

[B&Ofan]

...I don't know if Amtrak ever served Suburban/Penn Center Station. There is an old article in Trains Magazine the discusses the Old Broad St. Station in that location. After the station closed and the moved all trains to 30th street, they wanted to keep clocker service to NYC out of Suburban Station. However they discovered that even 2 GG1's couldn't pull an average length train up the grade designed for MU units and abandoned the idea. If the Pennsylvania Railroad couldn't do it, I doubt that Amtrak could. However I believe If you have an Amtrak ticket to 30th st the stub is valid on SEPTA to Suburban/Penn Center Station. This I believe is a carryover from the pre-Amtrak days.

SEPTA easily pulls (or pushes) seven and eight car trains up that grade with a single AEM-7. Maybe the one AEM-7 is better than two GG-1's? :lol: (sorry GG-1 - I couldn't help it).

Amtrak pulled out of Suburban to save money, and to allow the Keystones to also serve the PHL-NYP route. The honoring of Amtrak tickets between 30th Street and Suburban and Market East was part of the deal.

Aloha

No Problem, But I find it difficult to think a G with 6,000 continuous HP 9,000 peak could perform less than some Swedish engine and out perform 2, unlikely. There must be something else involved.

OK I see what is going on here. This I did not know, but it is an interesting bit of trivia. In defense of the GG1, the reason the Pennsy didn't want to move the clocker was due to the fact that it was a quite popular train, so I'm sure we are not talking about 7 or 8 cars but substantially more heavyweights on a regular basis on a very tight schedule. Finally with all the development in the last 70 years or so (I forget when Broad St closed), it might not even be the same grade that they talked about in the article. Maybe I spoke too soon, but I just wanted to give the few facts I knew as I remembered them. I do agree, there must be something else involved.