LaHood Announces Guidelines for High-Speed Rail Funding

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Check out Russian watches. Poljots and Vostoks, in particular. My experience with them is they are rugged as hell, overbuilt, reliable, and accurate. Actually, that's my impression of almost every russian thing I own- workmanlike, not fancy, but overbuilt, overweight, overdone, and essentially indestructable. But usually with indifferent workmanship. Its an odd thing to really examine, which is why I collect ex-soviet junk.
I had (probably still have somewhere) a USSR-build SLR film camera (a Zenth). Built like a russian tank. It did have an electronic light meter built in, but everything else was mechanical.
I have a few of those, a couple of FEDs, a FED-built Leica knockoff (it says Leica on it), a Zorky, and a Kiev of the hasselblad-type design. Also computers, walkmen-alikes, digital quartz watches, scientific calculators, remote control car toys, model cars, model trains, typewriters, a marine chronometer, a rattrapante-type stopwatch, a clock out of a russian MIG, nightvision goggles, a fur-hat, and, i swear to god, an electronic testing device intended to help teenagers learn the driving rules in Russia. I'm skipping tons of things. I don't know why I like collecting this stuff. But its cheap enough.
 
I remember reading years ago in Reader's Digest or something about a trip on one of the major transcontinental trains. At the end of the article, there was a note as to how close to being on-time the train was when it got to its destination: it arrived 9 seconds late, IIRC. I don't know how much of a scandal that was, but I believe punctuality, at least as far as the trains were concerned, was a big deal there.

But that was long ago, in the "glory days" of Soviet communism (probably the late '60s or early '70s). I don't know how on-time high-speed trains are or ever will be, whether in Russia or here in the U.S. Obviously, if they're on separate ROW's and don't have to share track with local trains or freights, punctuality might be more practical.
 
And gosh, the border crossing at Vanaikkala/Vyborg was a breeze in both direction compared to the third degree that one can get at the allegedly open US/Canada border, even though it did involve a big guy wearing an even bigger cap and a pretty lady wearing a smaller cap towing a fierce looking dog behind her. :)
I know--I've used that same border crossing as an example here (except I did it on the daytime Finnish-operated Sibelius train), but some people here just can't wrap their heads around how a proper border crossing like that should work! They don't believe me! (Or actually, I post about it and then they continue discussing border crossings as if I had never posted...)
Having worked quite a few years overseas, I have found the US Customs consistently the near worst to deal with. My classic on silly questions is the time my oldest son and I came in through Seattle, plopped down our US passports and were asked, "Why are you entering the United States?" I think I answered, "We are coming home for my son to start college," but after 13 hours in the air, I am really not sure, mostly wondering what the trick was in the question. To compound the issue, the guy picked up my passport and asked my son, "is this your passport?" He said, " no its his." This was followed by the same question to me while he was holding up my son's passport. We never did understand what the game was.

The only one that was more of a mess was going into and out of Shanghai one time. There were two steps to the process, each with their own forms. Mainly silly and time consuming, but at least no stupid questions.
 
Upgrading the SILVER METEOR, CAPITOL LIMITED and COAST STARLIGHT routes to 110 mph is the most strategic use of the $8 billion. That would also pave the way for further, incremental upgrades for increases in speed.

This could give us about twelve-hour, overnight sleeping car service between DC, Chicago, Boston and Miami; San Francisco Bay, Seattle and Los Angeles; and Chicago and Denver with rush hour service within at least one stop of each of these cities IF scheduled to leave AFTER and arrive BEFORE work hours (5:31-8:01pm to 5:31-8:01am). Upgrading these routes to 110 mph now is very affordable and more easily achievable than wasting the $8 billion or more on a few isolated miles of 150-220mph track.

All current, conventional-speed routes could actually now have that same overnight and rush hour "corridor" service along their lines with similar scheduling. These corridors could include: Boston-DC and Buffalo; New York-Buffalo, Greensboro, Fayetteville and Columbia; DC-Pittsburgh; Chicago-Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Omaha and Minneapolis/St. Paul; Minot- Havre; Seattle-Spokane and Eugene; Denver- Salt Lake City; San Francisco Bay-Reno; Newton (Wichita)-Albuquerque; Los Angeles-San Francisco and Flagstaff (currently so served); Savannah-Miami; Memphis-Chicago and New Orleans.

AMTRAK's current scheduling and online booking system appears to be geared, however, for the leisurely railfan class that perhaps doesn't have to travel between work hours. The rest of the traveling public is expected to involuntarily pay through taxes for these trains that are currently scheduled to be unusable by them.
 
Upgrading the SILVER METEOR, CAPITOL LIMITED and COAST STARLIGHT routes to 110 mph is the most strategic use of the $8 billion. That would also pave the way for further, incremental upgrades for increases in speed.
This could give us about twelve-hour, overnight sleeping car service between DC, Chicago, Boston and Miami; San Francisco Bay, Seattle and Los Angeles; and Chicago and Denver with rush hour service within at least one stop of each of these cities IF scheduled to leave AFTER and arrive BEFORE work hours (5:31-8:01pm to 5:31-8:01am). Upgrading these routes to 110 mph now is very affordable and more easily achievable than wasting the $8 billion or more on a few isolated miles of 150-220mph track.

All current, conventional-speed routes could actually now have that same overnight and rush hour "corridor" service along their lines with similar scheduling. These corridors could include: Boston-DC and Buffalo; New York-Buffalo, Greensboro, Fayetteville and Columbia; DC-Pittsburgh; Chicago-Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Omaha and Minneapolis/St. Paul; Minot- Havre; Seattle-Spokane and Eugene; Denver- Salt Lake City; San Francisco Bay-Reno; Newton (Wichita)-Albuquerque; Los Angeles-San Francisco and Flagstaff (currently so served); Savannah-Miami; Memphis-Chicago and New Orleans.

AMTRAK's current scheduling and online booking system appears to be geared, however, for the leisurely railfan class that perhaps doesn't have to travel between work hours. The rest of the traveling public is expected to involuntarily pay through taxes for these trains that are currently scheduled to be unusable by them.
I'd be surprised if you could get just the Capitol Limited up to 110 mph for $8b. I'll defer to the real engineers, but there's a lot of curvy mountain railroad between Cumberland and Pittsburgh.

I do like the idea of a 110 mph corridor between Minot and Havre, though I wouldn't want to pay for all the the crossing gates for the section roads along that route.
 
Upgrading the SILVER METEOR, CAPITOL LIMITED and COAST STARLIGHT routes to 110 mph is the most strategic use of the $8 billion. That would also pave the way for further, incremental upgrades for increases in speed.
This could give us about twelve-hour, overnight sleeping car service between DC, Chicago, Boston and Miami; San Francisco Bay, Seattle and Los Angeles; and Chicago and Denver with rush hour service within at least one stop of each of these cities IF scheduled to leave AFTER and arrive BEFORE work hours (5:31-8:01pm to 5:31-8:01am). Upgrading these routes to 110 mph now is very affordable and more easily achievable than wasting the $8 billion or more on a few isolated miles of 150-220mph track.

All current, conventional-speed routes could actually now have that same overnight and rush hour "corridor" service along their lines with similar scheduling. These corridors could include: Boston-DC and Buffalo; New York-Buffalo, Greensboro, Fayetteville and Columbia; DC-Pittsburgh; Chicago-Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Omaha and Minneapolis/St. Paul; Minot- Havre; Seattle-Spokane and Eugene; Denver- Salt Lake City; San Francisco Bay-Reno; Newton (Wichita)-Albuquerque; Los Angeles-San Francisco and Flagstaff (currently so served); Savannah-Miami; Memphis-Chicago and New Orleans.

AMTRAK's current scheduling and online booking system appears to be geared, however, for the leisurely railfan class that perhaps doesn't have to travel between work hours. The rest of the traveling public is expected to involuntarily pay through taxes for these trains that are currently scheduled to be unusable by them.
That would be a stupid use of money. None of the three routes you specified are fit for high speed operations- they have too many curves with too many good reasons for them- such as mountains or large buildings. They'd need new ROWs. Which you won't get for $8 billion. $800 billion, maybe.
 
Upgrading the SILVER METEOR, CAPITOL LIMITED and COAST STARLIGHT routes to 110 mph is the most strategic use of the $8 billion. That would also pave the way for further, incremental upgrades for increases in speed.
This could give us about twelve-hour, overnight sleeping car service between DC, Chicago, Boston and Miami; San Francisco Bay, Seattle and Los Angeles; and Chicago and Denver with rush hour service within at least one stop of each of these cities IF scheduled to leave AFTER and arrive BEFORE work hours (5:31-8:01pm to 5:31-8:01am). Upgrading these routes to 110 mph now is very affordable and more easily achievable than wasting the $8 billion or more on a few isolated miles of 150-220mph track.

All current, conventional-speed routes could actually now have that same overnight and rush hour "corridor" service along their lines with similar scheduling. These corridors could include: Boston-DC and Buffalo; New York-Buffalo, Greensboro, Fayetteville and Columbia; DC-Pittsburgh; Chicago-Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Omaha and Minneapolis/St. Paul; Minot- Havre; Seattle-Spokane and Eugene; Denver- Salt Lake City; San Francisco Bay-Reno; Newton (Wichita)-Albuquerque; Los Angeles-San Francisco and Flagstaff (currently so served); Savannah-Miami; Memphis-Chicago and New Orleans.

AMTRAK's current scheduling and online booking system appears to be geared, however, for the leisurely railfan class that perhaps doesn't have to travel between work hours. The rest of the traveling public is expected to involuntarily pay through taxes for these trains that are currently scheduled to be unusable by them.
That would be a stupid use of money. None of the three routes you specified are fit for high speed operations- they have too many curves with too many good reasons for them- such as mountains or large buildings. They'd need new ROWs. Which you won't get for $8 billion. $800 billion, maybe.
Using the term "stupid" to describe someone else's argument is quite revealing about the user of the term. My suggestion must be very flawless, since an insult has to be offered in rebuttal. I do correct my own post by adding the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR to the list of lines needed to be upgraded to 110 mph.

The $8 billion would more than cover the cost of the minimal 110 mph upgrades to existing track, without hugely costly re-alignments necessary. However, if gratuitous costs are added-- including institutionalized ones-- then $8 billion might only pay for the high-priced consultants' fees for preliminary studies, etc.

One-hundred ten mph is the lowest cost, least involved upgrade that can be had. No upgrade will enable top speed for the entire route, unless national budgets are to be broken for a few miles of super high-speed-- probably magnetic-- line. That's how some people would like to see much more than the mere $8 billion squandered.

One-hundred ten mph could, however, give us 48-hour, coast-to-coast service and 24-hour service up and down each coast. That's much faster than today's roughly 72-hour, transcontinental timings. The really faster twelve-hour, 700-900-mile long, overnight service corridors creatable with 110 mph could really be useful for business and miscellaneous travelers and rush hour commuters IF scheduled to handle them at their optimal times (evenings and mornings). The mere re-scheduling of all AMTRAK trains to handle commuters and overnight business and miscellaneous travelers is needed to maximize ridership, make AMTRAK a real option for greener tranportation and boost its revenue for its own sustainability and investment (barring being wasted on superfluous, gratuitous, extra bureaucratic "costs").

All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
 
No cold war flashbacks but would you want to trust mechanical Anything in Russia?In my experiencejust about all of their stuff is shoddily built,breaksdown,rusts(lots of iron and steel! :lol: )and or

gets abandoned for lack of parts!I wouldnt trust a train going 200 MPH in Russia or the USA!! :lol:
The Russians have the most reliable manned spacecraft ever built, and after the space shuttle is retired, NASA is going to be relying on the Soyuz for a period of time to transport crews to and from the International Space Station.
 
[The $8 billion would more than cover the cost of the minimal 110 mph upgrades to existing track, without hugely costly re-alignments necessary. However, if gratuitous costs are added-- including institutionalized ones-- then $8 billion might only pay for the high-priced consultants' fees for preliminary studies, etc.
Are you sure that realignments wouldn't be required in the Alleghenies? It's expensive to build through mountains.

What changes need to be done to grade crossings? Quad gates at every driveway that crosses the railroad?

What about speed limits through the many towns and cities the trains go through? It would be a tough sell to get people to allow trains to blast through their downtowns at 110 mph. Look at the YouTube video of the Acela going through Kingston station. How wide would the right of way have to be?

Would 110 mph passenger trains integrate well with lower-speed freight traffic?

Are you sure you could do all this for $8b?
 
Using the term "stupid" to describe someone else's argument is quite revealing about the user of the term. My suggestion must be very flawless, since an insult has to be offered in rebuttal. I do correct my own post by adding the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR to the list of lines needed to be upgraded to 110 mph.
I was irritable when I used the term, and for its use I apologize. Ignorant of the routing for the trains would have been a more appropriate way to counter it. Ditto the California Zephyr.

The $8 billion would more than cover the cost of the minimal 110 mph upgrades to existing track, without hugely costly re-alignments necessary. However, if gratuitous costs are added-- including institutionalized ones-- then $8 billion might only pay for the high-priced consultants' fees for preliminary studies, etc.
You could upgrade the track grading standards, minus alignment standards, of course- to 110 mph for $8 billion. I don't refute that.

One-hundred ten mph is the lowest cost, least involved upgrade that can be had. No upgrade will enable top speed for the entire route, unless national budgets are to be broken for a few miles of super high-speed-- probably magnetic-- line. That's how some people would like to see much more than the mere $8 billion squandered.
No its not. It would be cheaper to upgrade to 90 mph running, since it wouldn't require costly crossing safety devices as the 110 standad does. I tend to agree with incremental high-speed upgrades. I disagree with the routes you chose.

One-hundred ten mph could, however, give us 48-hour, coast-to-coast service and 24-hour service up and down each coast. That's much faster than today's roughly 72-hour, transcontinental timings. The really faster twelve-hour, 700-900-mile long, overnight service corridors creatable with 110 mph could really be useful for business and miscellaneous travelers and rush hour commuters IF scheduled to handle them at their optimal times (evenings and mornings). The mere re-scheduling of all AMTRAK trains to handle commuters and overnight business and miscellaneous travelers is needed to maximize ridership, make AMTRAK a real option for greener tranportation and boost its revenue for its own sustainability and investment (barring being wasted on superfluous, gratuitous, extra bureaucratic "costs").
You're wrong. The Silver Meteor (and Silver Star, Palmetto, Carolinian, and Northeast Regional trains) are bogged down on the RF&P. The reason for that bogging down is that the route is curvy. If Amtrak could have upgraded that to 110 mph running with reasonable cost efficiency, it would already be done. 20 trains a day, I think, serve that route. The upgrade would have been more then worth it if it was reasonable. Actually, more if you include VRE trains. Further south of that, the track is even harder to upgrade for that kind of service. It requires curve straightening, and that costs a lot of money.

The Coast Starlight runs through the mountains in California, Oregon, and Washington state. The hours it takes is resulting from the mountainous, and resultantly curvy, route that it takes. The Capitol Limited winds its way through the Alleghenies over mountains and curves. Upgrading that to 90 mph (keep in mind, the further out into the boonies you get, the more tiny and unimportant crossings you need to grade separate or quad-gate). The California Zephyr, likewise, runs through a lot of curvy track that goes through mountains and it would cost a fortune to re-align it, not to mention costing the country a fortune in a lost asset in the beautiful route it currently transverses.

Your ideas are sound, your routing misguided. A properly straightened run over the Lackawanna Cutoff and up to Buffalo would allow such speeds. More cheaply, and more sensibly, upgrading the relatively straight Water Level Route to 110 (Lake Shore Limited) would be a much more effective way to do it. As for a train west of Chicago, the Southwest Chief's routing makes more sense. Its already up to 90 in places, and most of the hinderance in other places to much higher speeds than that is signaling and grade crossing separation.

If your goal is building a trans-continental route for 48 hour service or thereabouts, upgrading the the Water Level Route to 110, having a single train leave New York, spend limited time waiting in Chicago, and then blasting out over the Southwest Chiefs route, and over the BNSF Transcon (instead of the current routing through NM), that would be close to possible, I think. You could probably do a bit better. If most of the route was capable of 110, you could average, say, 75, which would mean you could do the run, with stops in a few major cities, in about 43 hours.

With California's High Speed Rail in place, you could still get to San Francisco from New York in under 48 hours.

All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
I agree with you wholeheartedly in this area. My objection was to your routing, not the concept.
 
You're wrong. The Silver Meteor (and Silver Star, Palmetto, Carolinian, and Northeast Regional trains) are bogged down on the RF&P. The reason for that bogging down is that the route is curvy. If Amtrak could have upgraded that to 110 mph running with reasonable cost efficiency, it would already be done. 20 trains a day, I think, serve that route. The upgrade would have been more then worth it if it was reasonable. Actually, more if you include VRE trains. Further south of that, the track is even harder to upgrade for that kind of service. It requires curve straightening, and that costs a lot of money.
There are people in La-la land - DC in this case - that are having a "study" done on speeding up the RF&P. They really do not want to hear the obvious one paragraph answer which is known to many people and has already been given to them free of charge. Conversely, south of Petersburg VA, the ex ACL route is fairly striaght and at one time had a 100 mph speed limit. Some curve straightening and reinstatement of double track throughout could make a significant difference in run time there.

The Coast Starlight runs through the mountains in California, Oregon, and Washington state. The hours it takes is resulting from the mountainous, and resultantly curvy, route that it takes. The Capitol Limited winds its way through the Alleghenies over mountains and curves. Upgrading that to 90 mph (keep in mind, the further out into the boonies you get, the more tiny and unimportant crossings you need to grade separate or quad-gate). The California Zephyr, likewise, runs through a lot of curvy track that goes through mountains and it would cost a fortune to re-align it, not to mention costing the country a fortune in a lost asset in the beautiful route it currently transverses.
This also has been explained over and over. Raising the maximum speed limit does very little for you if the curves prevent its use throughout. Classic example: In passenger days, the Southern Railway route Bristol VA/TN to Chattanooga had a passenger train speed limit of 80 mph, but when you looked at the milepost limits on the list of speeds allowed on curves, you found that a 10 mile more or less section that allowed 65 mph was as good as it got and there were many miles of 50 mph, 40 mph, and less.

Your ideas are sound, your routing misguided. A properly straightened run over the Lackawanna Cutoff and up to Buffalo would allow such speeds. More cheaply, and more sensibly, upgrading the relatively straight Water Level Route to 110 (Lake Shore Limited) would be a much more effective way to do it. As for a train west of Chicago, the Southwest Chief's routing makes more sense. Its already up to 90 in places, and most of the hinderance in other places to much higher speeds than that is signaling and grade crossing separation.
Know nothing about the Lackawanna Cutoff route, but in the NYC route was faster end to end.
If your goal is building a trans-continental route for 48 hour service or thereabouts, upgrading the the Water Level Route to 110, having a single train leave New York, spend limited time waiting in Chicago, and then blasting out over the Southwest Chiefs route, and over the BNSF Transcon (instead of the current routing through NM), that would be close to possible, I think. You could probably do a bit better. If most of the route was capable of 110, you could average, say, 75, which would mean you could do the run, with stops in a few major cities, in about 43 hours.
I think you mean Kansas and Colorado rather than New Mexico. However, the Kansas - Colorado route did also have a 100 mph speed limit at one time. Even the full ATSF passenger route has lots of areas that could use some alignment changes, even to take full advantage of the current 79 mph or 90 mph speed limits.
With California's High Speed Rail in place, you could still get to San Francisco from New York in under 48 hours.
All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
I agree with you wholeheartedly in this area. My objection was to your routing, not the concept.
Also tend to agree with that last except for a few exceptions where true high speed should be worth its costs. Also note that I did not say be profitable.
 
All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
Well, don't forget that Amtrak still relies on Congress for funding, so politically strategic bang for the buck is a significant factor.

Merely improving what's in place may or may not get the most transportation bang for the buck, but less efficient, less effective stunts may help raise political capital, helping Amtrak down the line.
 
Even the full ATSF passenger route has lots of areas that could use some alignment changes, even to take full advantage of the current 79 mph or 90 mph speed limits.
Granted, but I assume you'd agree that of the existing basic routings Chicago-California, BNSFs line is the most ideal for higher speeds.
 
Even the full ATSF passenger route has lots of areas that could use some alignment changes, even to take full advantage of the current 79 mph or 90 mph speed limits.
Granted, but I assume you'd agree that of the existing basic routings Chicago-California, BNSFs line is the most ideal for higher speeds.
True.
 
Using the term "stupid" to describe someone else's argument is quite revealing about the user of the term. My suggestion must be very flawless, since an insult has to be offered in rebuttal. I do correct my own post by adding the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR to the list of lines needed to be upgraded to 110 mph.
I was irritable when I used the term, and for its use I apologize. Ignorant of the routing for the trains would have been a more appropriate way to counter it. Ditto the California Zephyr.

The $8 billion would more than cover the cost of the minimal 110 mph upgrades to existing track, without hugely costly re-alignments necessary. However, if gratuitous costs are added-- including institutionalized ones-- then $8 billion might only pay for the high-priced consultants' fees for preliminary studies, etc.
You could upgrade the track grading standards, minus alignment standards, of course- to 110 mph for $8 billion. I don't refute that.

One-hundred ten mph is the lowest cost, least involved upgrade that can be had. No upgrade will enable top speed for the entire route, unless national budgets are to be broken for a few miles of super high-speed-- probably magnetic-- line. That's how some people would like to see much more than the mere $8 billion squandered.
No its not. It would be cheaper to upgrade to 90 mph running, since it wouldn't require costly crossing safety devices as the 110 standad does. I tend to agree with incremental high-speed upgrades. I disagree with the routes you chose.

One-hundred ten mph could, however, give us 48-hour, coast-to-coast service and 24-hour service up and down each coast. That's much faster than today's roughly 72-hour, transcontinental timings. The really faster twelve-hour, 700-900-mile long, overnight service corridors creatable with 110 mph could really be useful for business and miscellaneous travelers and rush hour commuters IF scheduled to handle them at their optimal times (evenings and mornings). The mere re-scheduling of all AMTRAK trains to handle commuters and overnight business and miscellaneous travelers is needed to maximize ridership, make AMTRAK a real option for greener tranportation and boost its revenue for its own sustainability and investment (barring being wasted on superfluous, gratuitous, extra bureaucratic "costs").
You're wrong. The Silver Meteor (and Silver Star, Palmetto, Carolinian, and Northeast Regional trains) are bogged down on the RF&P. The reason for that bogging down is that the route is curvy. If Amtrak could have upgraded that to 110 mph running with reasonable cost efficiency, it would already be done. 20 trains a day, I think, serve that route. The upgrade would have been more then worth it if it was reasonable. Actually, more if you include VRE trains. Further south of that, the track is even harder to upgrade for that kind of service. It requires curve straightening, and that costs a lot of money.

The Coast Starlight runs through the mountains in California, Oregon, and Washington state. The hours it takes is resulting from the mountainous, and resultantly curvy, route that it takes. The Capitol Limited winds its way through the Alleghenies over mountains and curves. Upgrading that to 90 mph (keep in mind, the further out into the boonies you get, the more tiny and unimportant crossings you need to grade separate or quad-gate). The California Zephyr, likewise, runs through a lot of curvy track that goes through mountains and it would cost a fortune to re-align it, not to mention costing the country a fortune in a lost asset in the beautiful route it currently transverses.

Your ideas are sound, your routing misguided. A properly straightened run over the Lackawanna Cutoff and up to Buffalo would allow such speeds. More cheaply, and more sensibly, upgrading the relatively straight Water Level Route to 110 (Lake Shore Limited) would be a much more effective way to do it. As for a train west of Chicago, the Southwest Chief's routing makes more sense. Its already up to 90 in places, and most of the hinderance in other places to much higher speeds than that is signaling and grade crossing separation.

If your goal is building a trans-continental route for 48 hour service or thereabouts, upgrading the the Water Level Route to 110, having a single train leave New York, spend limited time waiting in Chicago, and then blasting out over the Southwest Chiefs route, and over the BNSF Transcon (instead of the current routing through NM), that would be close to possible, I think. You could probably do a bit better. If most of the route was capable of 110, you could average, say, 75, which would mean you could do the run, with stops in a few major cities, in about 43 hours.

With California's High Speed Rail in place, you could still get to San Francisco from New York in under 48 hours.

All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
I agree with you wholeheartedly in this area. My objection was to your routing, not the concept.
I completely accept your appology, Green Maned Lion. I had originally considered the LSL/SWC routing. I only dropped it in favor of the CAPITOL LTD/CA ZEPHYR due to less distance and more stragtegic location along each coast. T

The issues of curves and grades are what "upgrading" is largely to correct. Deferring to experts in the field, it shouldn't always require complete re-alignments to help a curve or grade. I know the concept of tilting, turbo (bio-)diesel-powered trains has been denounced by certain opinions on the subject. Yet, the concept of doing more with what we've got (or can more cheaply or readily get) for less is imperative or else, the $8 billion is useless and should be rejected and refunded to its lenders (relieving subsequently indebted, out-of-work, foreclosed-upon, unable taxpayers) rather than wasted on (a) whiz-bang, greatly-hyped, sensational, practically useless, shortline rocket-train project(s) to nowhere.

I don't consider any "high-speed" route as being maximum speed all the way-- mostly where it's cheaply possible. I certainly agree that re-habilitating abandoned grades at the often-quoted $1 miilion or so-per-mile is to be considered.

Without un-diplomatically asserting to you that "you are wrong", my understanding is that 110 mph is in the same class of requirements as 90 mph. I understand that greater than 110 mph would require quad gates. Greater than 125 mph should require grade crossing separation. Greater than 150 mph would practically require electric power. Inform me if that's incorrect, it very well may be. Even so, it may not entirely alter my assertions.
 
Using the term "stupid" to describe someone else's argument is quite revealing about the user of the term. My suggestion must be very flawless, since an insult has to be offered in rebuttal. I do correct my own post by adding the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR to the list of lines needed to be upgraded to 110 mph.
I was irritable when I used the term, and for its use I apologize. Ignorant of the routing for the trains would have been a more appropriate way to counter it. Ditto the California Zephyr.

The $8 billion would more than cover the cost of the minimal 110 mph upgrades to existing track, without hugely costly re-alignments necessary. However, if gratuitous costs are added-- including institutionalized ones-- then $8 billion might only pay for the high-priced consultants' fees for preliminary studies, etc.
You could upgrade the track grading standards, minus alignment standards, of course- to 110 mph for $8 billion. I don't refute that.

One-hundred ten mph is the lowest cost, least involved upgrade that can be had. No upgrade will enable top speed for the entire route, unless national budgets are to be broken for a few miles of super high-speed-- probably magnetic-- line. That's how some people would like to see much more than the mere $8 billion squandered.
No its not. It would be cheaper to upgrade to 90 mph running, since it wouldn't require costly crossing safety devices as the 110 standad does. I tend to agree with incremental high-speed upgrades. I disagree with the routes you chose.

One-hundred ten mph could, however, give us 48-hour, coast-to-coast service and 24-hour service up and down each coast. That's much faster than today's roughly 72-hour, transcontinental timings. The really faster twelve-hour, 700-900-mile long, overnight service corridors creatable with 110 mph could really be useful for business and miscellaneous travelers and rush hour commuters IF scheduled to handle them at their optimal times (evenings and mornings). The mere re-scheduling of all AMTRAK trains to handle commuters and overnight business and miscellaneous travelers is needed to maximize ridership, make AMTRAK a real option for greener tranportation and boost its revenue for its own sustainability and investment (barring being wasted on superfluous, gratuitous, extra bureaucratic "costs").
You're wrong. The Silver Meteor (and Silver Star, Palmetto, Carolinian, and Northeast Regional trains) are bogged down on the RF&P. The reason for that bogging down is that the route is curvy. If Amtrak could have upgraded that to 110 mph running with reasonable cost efficiency, it would already be done. 20 trains a day, I think, serve that route. The upgrade would have been more then worth it if it was reasonable. Actually, more if you include VRE trains. Further south of that, the track is even harder to upgrade for that kind of service. It requires curve straightening, and that costs a lot of money.

The Coast Starlight runs through the mountains in California, Oregon, and Washington state. The hours it takes is resulting from the mountainous, and resultantly curvy, route that it takes. The Capitol Limited winds its way through the Alleghenies over mountains and curves. Upgrading that to 90 mph (keep in mind, the further out into the boonies you get, the more tiny and unimportant crossings you need to grade separate or quad-gate). The California Zephyr, likewise, runs through a lot of curvy track that goes through mountains and it would cost a fortune to re-align it, not to mention costing the country a fortune in a lost asset in the beautiful route it currently transverses.

Your ideas are sound, your routing misguided. A properly straightened run over the Lackawanna Cutoff and up to Buffalo would allow such speeds. More cheaply, and more sensibly, upgrading the relatively straight Water Level Route to 110 (Lake Shore Limited) would be a much more effective way to do it. As for a train west of Chicago, the Southwest Chief's routing makes more sense. Its already up to 90 in places, and most of the hinderance in other places to much higher speeds than that is signaling and grade crossing separation.

If your goal is building a trans-continental route for 48 hour service or thereabouts, upgrading the the Water Level Route to 110, having a single train leave New York, spend limited time waiting in Chicago, and then blasting out over the Southwest Chiefs route, and over the BNSF Transcon (instead of the current routing through NM), that would be close to possible, I think. You could probably do a bit better. If most of the route was capable of 110, you could average, say, 75, which would mean you could do the run, with stops in a few major cities, in about 43 hours.

With California's High Speed Rail in place, you could still get to San Francisco from New York in under 48 hours.

All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
I agree with you wholeheartedly in this area. My objection was to your routing, not the concept.
I completely accept your appology, Green Maned Lion. I had originally considered the LSL/SWC routing. I only dropped it in favor of the CAPITOL LTD/CA ZEPHYR due to less distance and more stragtegic location along each coast. T

The issues of curves and grades are what "upgrading" is largely to correct. Deferring to experts in the field, it shouldn't always require complete re-alignments to help a curve or grade. I know the concept of tilting, turbo (bio-)diesel-powered trains has been denounced by certain opinions on the subject. Yet, the concept of doing more with what we've got (or can more cheaply or readily get) for less is imperative or else, the $8 billion is useless and should be rejected and refunded to its lenders (relieving subsequently indebted, out-of-work, foreclosed-upon, unable taxpayers) rather than wasted on (a) whiz-bang, greatly-hyped, sensational, practically useless, shortline rocket-train project(s) to nowhere.

I don't consider any "high-speed" route as being maximum speed all the way-- mostly where it's cheaply possible. I certainly agree that re-habilitating abandoned grades at the often-quoted $1 miilion or so-per-mile is to be considered.

Without un-diplomatically asserting to you that "you are wrong", my understanding is that 110 mph is in the same class of requirements as 90 mph. I understand that greater than 110 mph would require quad gates. Greater than 125 mph should require grade crossing separation. Greater than 150 mph would practically require electric power. Inform me if that's incorrect, it very well may be. Even so, it may not entirely alter my assertions.
I'm trying to work within the parameters of the 8 billion, which wouldn't do what you are suggesting, or procure the tilting trainsets what you are suggesting would require. I was talking running this using Superliners with upgraded trucks. What does 8 billion get you? Well, for a bit over 10 billion you get two new tracks into New York City and a station for trains using them to stop in, plus the equipment to make use of that new capacity and a bridge to eliminate a bottle neck in Newark (that project, which broke ground recently, is called the ARC Tunnel, and it is fascinating but I won't go into my usual rants about it.) You aren't getting the CZ/CL route HSRed and procuring TALGO sleepers, diners, lounges, coaches, etc. for 8 billion.

As for your speed numbers, you got the numbers right, but you got your words wrong. To go 110 you need quad gates or some other guaranteed prevention of a car fouling a train. To go 125 you need grade separation. To go 150, you need specialized equipment.

Practically speaking, you need electric trains. But the UAC TurboTrains hit 185 in experimental operation. You can do it with direct-drive Turbos, but realistically speaking electric is better, one of the advantages to SWC use. BNSF is still batting around the idea of electrifying the transcon.

As for superelevation, there are excellent reasons not to use it in this situation, about 10,000 of them. And that is the number of double-stack cars that are going to be running that route, with their high center of gravity. A double-stack woulda rolled on the old horseshoe curves superelevation.
 
As for your speed numbers, you got the numbers right, but you got your words wrong. To go 110 you need quad gates or some other guaranteed prevention of a car fouling a train. To go 125 you need grade separation. To go 150, you need specialized equipment.
The FRA’s goal for high-speed grade crossings is to achieve an acceptable level of grade crossing risk. Regulatory requirements for high-speed grade crossings are:
* For 110 mph or less: Grade crossings are permitted. States and railroads cooperate to determine the needed warning devices, including passive crossbucks, flashing lights, two quadrant gates (close only 'entering' lanes of road), long gate arms, median barriers, and various combinations. Lights and/or gates are activated by circuits wired to the track (track circuits).

* For 110-125 mph: FRA permits crossings only if an "impenetrable barrier" blocks highway traffic when train approaches.

* Above 125 mph, no crossings will be permitted.
See the FRA web page on High Speed Grade Crossings.

Note that the requirement for 110-125 mph makes providing grade crossings very nearly impractical under thpse circumstances. I suppose they could use those barriers that they use at roads entering the air-side at some airports.
 
Having worked quite a few years overseas, I have found the US Customs consistently the near worst to deal with. My classic on silly questions is the time my oldest son and I came in through Seattle, plopped down our US passports and were asked, "Why are you entering the United States?" I think I answered, "We are coming home for my son to start college," but after 13 hours in the air, I am really not sure, mostly wondering what the trick was in the question. To compound the issue, the guy picked up my passport and asked my son, "is this your passport?" He said, " no its his." This was followed by the same question to me while he was holding up my son's passport. We never did understand what the game was. .
They've gotta keep those ee-vill terrorists out . . .
 
Having worked quite a few years overseas, I have found the US Customs consistently the near worst to deal with. My classic on silly questions is the time my oldest son and I came in through Seattle, plopped down our US passports and were asked, "Why are you entering the United States?" I think I answered, "We are coming home for my son to start college," but after 13 hours in the air, I am really not sure, mostly wondering what the trick was in the question. To compound the issue, the guy picked up my passport and asked my son, "is this your passport?" He said, " no its his." This was followed by the same question to me while he was holding up my son's passport. We never did understand what the game was. .
They've gotta keep those ee-vill terrorists out . . .
I sometimes wonder what exactly do they expect you to say when they wave your passport with your photo on it in front of you and ask "Is this your passport?" "No sir! No not at all. That picture doesn't even look like me, does it now?" Sheesh!
 
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As for your speed numbers, you got the numbers right, but you got your words wrong. To go 110 you need quad gates or some other guaranteed prevention of a car fouling a train. To go 125 you need grade separation. To go 150, you need specialized equipment.
The FRA’s goal for high-speed grade crossings is to achieve an acceptable level of grade crossing risk. Regulatory requirements for high-speed grade crossings are:
* For 110 mph or less: Grade crossings are permitted. States and railroads cooperate to determine the needed warning devices, including passive crossbucks, flashing lights, two quadrant gates (close only 'entering' lanes of road), long gate arms, median barriers, and various combinations. Lights and/or gates are activated by circuits wired to the track (track circuits).

* For 110-125 mph: FRA permits crossings only if an "impenetrable barrier" blocks highway traffic when train approaches.

* Above 125 mph, no crossings will be permitted.
See the FRA web page on High Speed Grade Crossings.

Note that the requirement for 110-125 mph makes providing grade crossings very nearly impractical under thpse circumstances. I suppose they could use those barriers that they use at roads entering the air-side at some airports.
The way the FRA's requirements are worded, 110mph can go either way-- no gates or even signals or quad gates. The outline I've seen gave 110mph or less as having no more requirements than advanced signaling for the trains; 125 or less, quad gates; 150mph or less, grade separation. I don't have that info at hand. Even a mile or so under, to fit into the requirements, could effect the same speed goals.

Apparently even the FRA site doesn't give definitive info. Maybe its not my "ignorance" (again) that's at issue here. Nevertheless, most of AMTRAK's schedules are around 50% of their supposed maximum speed of 79 mph. That would figure most of the time. That includes stops, restrictions, slow orders (unless an unusual amount of them), etc.

I would favor putting large, neon skull-and-crossbone signs, a train-and-car-collision figure sign, and a simple train time or at least a maximum train speed sign and large stop signs at all passenger train crossings (expensive enough--unless made by prisoners) or closing all but one connecting road crossing every mile along the track.
 
Here it is from 49CFR213, the Track Safety Standards:

Class 4: 80P / 60F

Class 5: 90P / 80F

Class 6: 110 mph

Class 7: 125 mph

Class 8: 150 mph

Class 9: 200 mph

The heading above these numbers states: "Over track that meets all of the requirements prescribed in this part"

Thus, any deficiency of any kind requires the speed to be kicked down to a lower maximum. (The very common 79 mph is due to requirements in the signal and train control sections of the FRA standards, not the track standards.)

For grade crossings at the higher speeds:

§ 213.347 Automotive or railroad crossings at grade.
(a) There shall be no at-grade (level) highway crossings, public or private, or rail-to-rail crossings at-grade on Class 8 and 9 track.

(b) If train operation is projected at Class 7 speed for a track segment that will include rail-highway grade crossings, the track owner shall submit for FRA’s approval a complete description of the proposed warning/barrier system to address the protection of highway traffic and high speed trains. Trains shall not operate at Class 7 speeds over any track segment having highway-rail grade crossings unless:

(1) An FRA-approved warning/barrier system exists on that track segment; and

(2) All elements of that warning/barrier system are functioning.
This gives the "chapter and verse" for this subject.

Thus, to go above 125 mph you need separation, and that means 125.1 or higher and to go above 110 mph, also meaning 110.1 up to 125.0 mph, you need the super duper protection of the crossing.

As for your speed numbers, you got the numbers right, but you got your words wrong. To go 110 you need quad gates or some other guaranteed prevention of a car fouling a train. To go 125 you need grade separation. To go 150, you need specialized equipment.
The FRA’s goal for high-speed grade crossings is to achieve an acceptable level of grade crossing risk. Regulatory requirements for high-speed grade crossings are:
* For 110 mph or less: Grade crossings are permitted. States and railroads cooperate to determine the needed warning devices, including passive crossbucks, flashing lights, two quadrant gates (close only 'entering' lanes of road), long gate arms, median barriers, and various combinations. Lights and/or gates are activated by circuits wired to the track (track circuits).

* For 110-125 mph: FRA permits crossings only if an "impenetrable barrier" blocks highway traffic when train approaches.

* Above 125 mph, no crossings will be permitted.
See the FRA web page on High Speed Grade Crossings.

Note that the requirement for 110-125 mph makes providing grade crossings very nearly impractical under thpse circumstances. I suppose they could use those barriers that they use at roads entering the air-side at some airports.
The way the FRA's requirements are worded, 110mph can go either way-- no gates or even signals or quad gates. The outline I've seen gave 110mph or less as having no more requirements than advanced signaling for the trains; 125 or less, quad gates; 150mph or less, grade separation. I don't have that info at hand. Even a mile or so under, to fit into the requirements, could effect the same speed goals.

Apparently even the FRA site doesn't give definitive info. Maybe its not my "ignorance" (again) that's at issue here. Nevertheless, most of AMTRAK's schedules are around 50% of their supposed maximum speed of 79 mph. That would figure most of the time. That includes stops, restrictions, slow orders (unless an unusual amount of them), etc.

I would favor putting large, neon skull-and-crossbone signs, a train-and-car-collision figure sign, and a simple train time or at least a maximum train speed sign and large stop signs at all passenger train crossings (expensive enough--unless made by prisoners) or closing all but one connecting road crossing every mile along the track.
There was at one time, at least up until about 1962 or a little later, a grade crossing a few miles north of Grenada MS on the ICRR's passenger main was protected with a large neon flashing skull and crossbones sign on both sides, and I think, maybe a sign on an overhead bar that said "warning death" or some such with loud bells. I saw it in action once as the southbound Louisiane came through. When that thing went off, you would not even think about getting close to the tracks. The story goes that a man's son was killed at this crossing so he designed this thing as asked the ICRR if they would put it up. They said, you pay for it and we will. I have no idea when it went up. At that time, most of the grade crossings in the state were protected by a large rectangular sign with words on them in large letters that said, "MISSISSIPPI LAW STOP"
 
Here it is from 49CFR213, the Track Safety Standards:
Class 4: 80P / 60F

Class 5: 90P / 80F

Class 6: 110 mph

Class 7: 125 mph

Class 8: 150 mph

Class 9: 200 mph

The heading above these numbers states: "Over track that meets all of the requirements prescribed in this part"

Thus, any deficiency of any kind requires the speed to be kicked down to a lower maximum. (The very common 79 mph is due to requirements in the signal and train control sections of the FRA standards, not the track standards.)

For grade crossings at the higher speeds:

§ 213.347 Automotive or railroad crossings at grade.
(a) There shall be no at-grade (level) highway crossings, public or private, or rail-to-rail crossings at-grade on Class 8 and 9 track.

(b) If train operation is projected at Class 7 speed for a track segment that will include rail-highway grade crossings, the track owner shall submit for FRA’s approval a complete description of the proposed warning/barrier system to address the protection of highway traffic and high speed trains. Trains shall not operate at Class 7 speeds over any track segment having highway-rail grade crossings unless:

(1) An FRA-approved warning/barrier system exists on that track segment; and

(2) All elements of that warning/barrier system are functioning.
This gives the "chapter and verse" for this subject.

Thus, to go above 125 mph you need separation, and that means 125.1 or higher and to go above 110 mph, also meaning 110.1 up to 125.0 mph, you need the super duper protection of the crossing.

As for your speed numbers, you got the numbers right, but you got your words wrong. To go 110 you need quad gates or some other guaranteed prevention of a car fouling a train. To go 125 you need grade separation. To go 150, you need specialized equipment.
The FRA’s goal for high-speed grade crossings is to achieve an acceptable level of grade crossing risk. Regulatory requirements for high-speed grade crossings are:
* For 110 mph or less: Grade crossings are permitted. States and railroads cooperate to determine the needed warning devices, including passive crossbucks, flashing lights, two quadrant gates (close only 'entering' lanes of road), long gate arms, median barriers, and various combinations. Lights and/or gates are activated by circuits wired to the track (track circuits).

* For 110-125 mph: FRA permits crossings only if an "impenetrable barrier" blocks highway traffic when train approaches.

* Above 125 mph, no crossings will be permitted.
See the FRA web page on High Speed Grade Crossings.

Note that the requirement for 110-125 mph makes providing grade crossings very nearly impractical under thpse circumstances. I suppose they could use those barriers that they use at roads entering the air-side at some airports.
The way the FRA's requirements are worded, 110mph can go either way-- no gates or even signals or quad gates. The outline I've seen gave 110mph or less as having no more requirements than advanced signaling for the trains; 125 or less, quad gates; 150mph or less, grade separation. I don't have that info at hand. Even a mile or so under, to fit into the requirements, could effect the same speed goals.

Apparently even the FRA site doesn't give definitive info. Maybe its not my "ignorance" (again) that's at issue here. Nevertheless, most of AMTRAK's schedules are around 50% of their supposed maximum speed of 79 mph. That would figure most of the time. That includes stops, restrictions, slow orders (unless an unusual amount of them), etc.

I would favor putting large, neon skull-and-crossbone signs, a train-and-car-collision figure sign, and a simple train time or at least a maximum train speed sign and large stop signs at all passenger train crossings (expensive enough--unless made by prisoners) or closing all but one connecting road crossing every mile along the track.
There was at one time, at least up until about 1962 or a little later, a grade crossing a few miles north of Grenada MS on the ICRR's passenger main was protected with a large neon flashing skull and crossbones sign on both sides, and I think, maybe a sign on an overhead bar that said "warning death" or some such with loud bells. I saw it in action once as the southbound Louisiane came through. When that thing went off, you would not even think about getting close to the tracks. The story goes that a man's son was killed at this crossing so he designed this thing as asked the ICRR if they would put it up. They said, you pay for it and we will. I have no idea when it went up. At that time, most of the grade crossings in the state were protected by a large rectangular sign with words on them in large letters that said, "MISSISSIPPI LAW STOP"

Thank you, Mr. Harris for that fine example. A large, neon, reflective red-on-black skull-and-crossbones with "110MPH TRAINS!" and "$1,000 FINE" written and a big stop sign would be fair warning. The fines alone would probably at least finance the signage if not more.
 
All the high-flying, short-sighted and costly, other arguments for really wasting the $8 billion might get the nod but, if we want the most bang for the buck, we'd better look at merely improving what's already in place.
Well, don't forget that Amtrak still relies on Congress for funding, so politically strategic bang for the buck is a significant factor.

Merely improving what's in place may or may not get the most transportation bang for the buck, but less efficient, less effective stunts may help raise political capital, helping Amtrak down the line.
Political pandering is largely why AMTRAK is as dysfunctional as it is now. Politicians will only fund more "less efficient, less effective stunts". That's the only capital that will be raised politically.

AMTRAK has got to get loose from political dependence. Even if it doesn't, the improvements I've suggested could be claimed for credit by supportive politicians as well as by those through whose districts the higher-speed lines run. Looking at a map of the routes; that's a lot of politicians.

With AMTRAK's publicly stated finances and ridership numbers (if accurate): AMTRAK should be able to gradually (within perhaps eight years or so) become self-funding and adequately pay the host railroads for track time IF they begin charging a flat $3 per coach seat for each station passed (without gimmicky "bucket fares" or discounts that appear to conceal gouging of those paying full fares) with $9 for a roomette, $18 for a bedroom, and $3 per standard piece of baggage per entire line; and IF trains are scheduled to leave origins after and arrive at destinations before usual work hours between the largest cities every 500 miles or so-- creating a national commuter and overnight, sleeping and dining car, business rail transit system rather than the current vacation excursion trains only usable as discretionary diversions. Charging the coach fare for about 68 inside and a roomette fare for about 34 outside, carside advertisement spaces could subsidize any shortfall in ridership revenues or even provide additional revenue. AMTRAK's current partnership with other businesses is a good step in the right direction.

Allowing humanely confined pets to be transported in baggage cars and offering group travel for one seat or sleeping space fare would enable many more to use AMTRAK for real travel. A group ticket would be needed.

Eventually, First Class Coach, single-seat compartments could offer the "privacy of one’s own car" at only double the amount of a regular coach seat fare. First Class Coach fare could also include showering privileges-- with possession of ticket, presented on demand and punched by the Porter for entrance into a sleeping car shower. Exiting from the shower would indicate finishing that one use of the ticket. Other uses would be purchasable.

AMTRAK should lease equipment, allowing them to decrease or increase as trends demand. Guest commuter or other services on AMTRAK-owned rails should have to pay their fair share of the costs of that trackage.

I know this fails to goose-step behind the socialistic mantra that ""no rail passenger system in the world operates without subsidy". No other country in the world allows free enterprise the way America is supposed to allow.

If AMTRAK believes in a socialistic model for passenger train operation, they should be true to that model by paying everyone in the company (including every manager--top management included) only the same union-level wage. Many managers could do their management duties while on the Porters' and Waiters' Extra Boards, if they don't qualify for anything else. Union officers have to do their union management jobs in addition to their labor jobs. That actually saves even potentially superfluous managerial jobs without cutting often essential labor jobs-- the opposite of the usual formula for cost saving.

If the rest of us believe in socialism, we need to have socialized groceries, restaurants (if restaurants aren't too "bourgeois"--a left wing version of puritanism), clothing, housing and every other currently privately operated business. The grocery business is just as vital to our survival as is health care, or transportation for our economy.

If Communist China is having to dabble in "filthy capitalism" in order to make their ends meet (and those ends appear to have more than met), maybe we should do the same. We American taxpayers certainly now appear to owe them big-time for bailing out our biggest so-called capitalists with money our government has borrowed from them!

All but perhaps one of our railroads are self-funded (an actual utopian libertarianism)-- merely by the stark efficiency of rail-- even with their huge corporate bureaucracies. They even fund the government (including AMTRAK) by paying taxes. They and their freight shippers further subsidize AMTRAK by allowing AMTRAK government-mandated, discounted access to their tracks.

Of course, AMTRAK's labor-intensiveness funds the Railroad Retirement system, allowing the railroads to financially get by with eliminating many of their labor positions. That appears to be a major balance that barely keeps the railroad lobby in "support", or at least tolerant, of AMTRAK.

AMTRAK could actually pay its current salaries and other expenses with the fare revenue from the reliable, voluminous, daily ridership that could result from running trains that actually accommodate rush hour traffic from 50 miles away and providing huge overnight alternatives to wasteful, hour-long commuter flights to 500 miles away. The trains would actually be more usable even to the discretionary traveler by allowing travel after and return before work hours-- often saving at least four days of time currently needed merely for midday AMTRAK departures and arrivals. It's a shame (and should not be allowed by taxpaying constituents of Congress) that all of AMTRAK's resources, and now $8 billion of borrowed and taxpayer-owed money will likely be further wasted on "politically strategic" "stunts" to raise capital for more politically strategic stunts in order to do more of the same....

If we can't do honest, valuable, logical business for a fare price rather than by coercive taxation for essentially nothing but more of the same wasteful, coercively and actually un-democratically tax-obtained funding for dysfunctional "service" and authoritarianism; maybe we shouldn't have anything to show for it but loss. I think the laws of reality will bear that out for us. Just how extensive will that loss be?

Demand legislators that AMTRAK (and every other bailout) fund itself (and take its own losses) or go out of business and be taken over by someone who will run it self-sufficiently. We love our cars, trucks and planes too much to use trains anyway, don't we?

We actually need usable and sustainable rail passenger service to save our mass and long-distance mobility and economy-- that is, if we intend to have a real economy and survivability rather than an economy, and therefore an existence, made of smoke and mirrors. We need a private rail passenger market for our own freedom to choose the best operator-- a self-regulating and quality assurance feature.

We taxpayers and our dependents actually have a moral right to 100 shares each of AMTRAK preferred stock at about $.40 a share, instead of it being held "for us" by the government. If we can be expected to keep up with paying taxes and filling out the mind-vexing forms to do that-- all under pain of imprisonment for even honest mistakes-- we can surely handle owning and disposing of our own AMTRAK (and now, automaker and bank) stock for which we have paid with our taxes and our self-imperiling federal debt.
 
You know, Amtrak doesn't actually pay its fair share of track usage, either.

There is nothing, no law, no rule, no clause, no understanding to prevent BNSF from reinstating the Super Chief next year if they felt like it. There is no law, no rule, no clause, no understanding to prevent me from offering BNSF money to instate my own service directly competing with the Southwest Chief. The reason there is no competition to Amtrak is nobody has a desire to lose money doing it.

I don't understand why people think there is. There totally isn't. There are private railroads in this country that run passenger trains. Strasburg Railroad moves freight at night, or atleast they used to. They have an old Geep that they used for that purpose. M&E runs passenger trains. Strasburg and M&E both run passenger trains on trackage rights off of home trackage. Heck, there have been on and off talk of the proposed Strasburg Commuter Branch, a steam train that goes from Strasburg to connect with Amtrak at Paradise. If they ever get the chance to build the station, you can bet it will run. And that they'll make money doing it.

If you really think all this is possible, Flagman, get outta your armchair, write a business plan, contact some investment bankers, and get your ball rolling. Get to it.
 
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If you really think all this is possible, Flagman, get outta your armchair, write a business plan, contact some investment bankers, and get your ball rolling. Get to it.
There's a difference: Flagman wouldn't just have to get a workable business model for passenger rail; he'd have to compete against the government-subsidized Amtrak.
 
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