Lake Shore Limited and Train Length Issues

[Lonestar648]

Does Amtrak own any of the intermediate stations along the LSL route? If any Amtrak staff is on site, they are renting square footage from the local owner.

 

[jis]

Does Amtrak own any of the intermediate stations along the LSL route? If any Amtrak staff is on site, they are renting square footage from the local owner.

You can look up that information for each station at: http://www.greatamericanstations.com/station-listing/

Often, even when Amtrak owns the facility, the platform is owned by the host railroad (CSXT in case of many stations on the Empire Corridor).

 

[Lonestar648]

Great point, I had forgotten that many platforms are owned by the host RR. On the LSL route all the intermediate stations are owned locally and about a third of the platforms by the host. Too much politics involved to add a few car lengths I think. Better to use that energy elsewhere.

 

[neroden]

RPC, I kind of figured that it was the lack of real estate that might be the killer on longer platforms at most problematic stations.

Syracuse and Rochester are both elevated above ground level on berms with street overpasses.

Think about the foundations involved in high platforms in that situation.

Rhinecliff is in a cut and needs new elevators.

Hudson has a junction in the middle of the station and requires really serious redesign.

 

[jis]

Hudson has a junction in the middle of the station and requires really serious redesign.

IIRC, Hudson's current location is also on a sharp curve raising additional challenges for an HL platform and related "Gaps".

 

[neroden]

Oh, and Hudson also has a street grade crossing in the middle of the platform. In the same location as the junction, which straddles the grade crossing.

....yeah, Hudson is a *problem*. I believe there was a speculative design for redoing Hudson which involved rerouting the road onto a new overpass, relocating the freight connection north and the junction south, and relocating the platforms off the curve... but I haven't seen even conceptual plans.

 

[PRR 60]

Topic split from the Viewliner II - Part 2 - Production and Delivery topic.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

LSL desperately needs a few more cars.

It obviously wouldn't be easy to implement, but what it really needs is another frequency. The current schedule misses many busy city pairs due to poor hours, and the consist is already very long.

Or a second NYP-CHI train via PGH-PHL... like the old days.

 

[Larry H.]

The issue with the Lake Shore is platform length. It's already amtraks longest long distance train.

Think about the consist which I'll list.

P42dc (BOS-CHI)

P42DC (BOS-CHI)

Viewliner II Baggage car (BOS-CHI live bag ALB-CHI)

Viewliner I Sleeper (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet I Business/Cafe (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Diner/sleeper lounge (NYP-CHI)

Viewliner I sleeper (NYP-CHI)

Viewliner I Sleeper (NYP-CHI)

Viewliner II baggage (NYP-CHI)

Total length 1,243 feet. That's a monster of a train that really can't be lengthened. So a baggage dorm makes a lot of sense on this train because you can add rooms without adding to the already maxed out train length.

Most of the stations do not have a super long platform. I know Chicago can accommodate more, Toledo has a decent size, Cleveland I think is maxed out. I don't know much about upstate NY stations. ALB can accommodate a few more I think but not a lot. And penn has length restrictions.

When we took the CNN from Toronto to Vancouver the count of passenger carrying cars was 22 not including baggage and engines. So it would seem we could do the same.

 

[Seaboard92]

The issue with the Lake Shore is platform length. It's already amtraks longest long distance train.

Think about the consist which I'll list.

P42dc (BOS-CHI)

P42DC (BOS-CHI)

Viewliner II Baggage car (BOS-CHI live bag ALB-CHI)

Viewliner I Sleeper (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet I Business/Cafe (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (BOS-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Amfleet II Coach (NYP-CHI)

Diner/sleeper lounge (NYP-CHI)

Viewliner I sleeper (NYP-CHI)

Viewliner I Sleeper (NYP-CHI)

Viewliner II baggage (NYP-CHI)

Total length 1,243 feet. That's a monster of a train that really can't be lengthened. So a baggage dorm makes a lot of sense on this train because you can add rooms without adding to the already maxed out train length.

Most of the stations do not have a super long platform. I know Chicago can accommodate more, Toledo has a decent size, Cleveland I think is maxed out. I don't know much about upstate NY stations. ALB can accommodate a few more I think but not a lot. And penn has length restrictions.

When we took the CNN from Toronto to Vancouver the count of passenger carrying cars was 22 not including baggage and engines. So it would seem we could do the same.

I've worked on a consist of thirty cars before so it's definitely possible. But it also took us half an hour to load out and detrain because we didn't fit on a single platform.

You can run a long train as long as you have enough locomotives to handle the hotel load and tractive effort. And as long as you have enough equipment and crew it's doable.

Now making it efficient on platforms would mean extending platforms to the longer lengths. In theory in Chicago you could run a long consist of you stop on the thru track. But none of the other stations could handle that long of a train.

The Canadian can get away with it because the majority of the passengers board and detrain at Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Jasper, Kamloops, and Vancouver. The flag stops are fairly easy to spot the car passengers are getting in on what little platform there is.

It should be noted CSX will not run any passenger movement over thirty cars in length. However the Auto Pain is exempt from that rule.

 

[lstone19]

Today’s LSL is about three cars shorter than it was in the early 80s when it had a 3rd BOS coach, both a diner and a lounge for the NY section, and a NY Slumbercoach in addition to the two sleepers. Throw in a couple of private cars and I saw more than one 18 car LSLs being pulled by two F40s.

 

[railiner]

IIRC, the early Florida trains with both Miami and St. Petersburg sections combined, left NYP with 18 cars. Pulled by a GG-1 or two, and later, an E-60...

 

[Bob Dylan]

And there was the Amtrak version of the "Train to Everywhere", the combined Zephyr/Pioneer/Desert Wind that a few of us got to expierence. ( I lost my Retirement in Vegas and missed the Train!)

 

[jis]

What is the limit on the number of single level cars that 1MW HEP can power these days? It would seem that that would be hard limit on the length of single level trains these days since Amtrak (and possibly FRA and possibly current technical limitations) does allow the use of two separate HEP sources on a train.

I know in other countries EOGs (End on Generation) and HOGs (Head on Generation) powered trains of 26 or so cars are not uncommon.

 

[bms]

In my experience, the Lake Shore Limited has only been sold out around the Christmas and Thanksgiving holidays. I am in an LSL coach right now which is about 20% full.

 

[Lonestar648]

Wow! I remember the LSL coaches fairly full every time I traveled on it which for a while was every 4-6 weeks, now it have been a few years since I traveled on it.

 

[RPC]

What is the limit on the number of single level cars that 1MW HEP can power these days? It would seem that that would be hard limit on the length of single level trains these days since Amtrak (and possibly FRA and possibly current technical limitations) does allow the use of two separate HEP sources on a train.

I know in other countries EOGs (End on Generation) and HOGs (Head on Generation) powered trains of 26 or so cars are not uncommon.

Good question. I do know that by going to all LED lighting Amtrak was able to add a car to Auto Train (now 16); I'd guess around 20 single-level cars would max out the HEP. HEP as currently designed only allows for one power source. I suppose one could loop at the middle of the train and put an HEP-only engine at the end, but then you'd be dragging that engine along with the (long) train.

 

[jis]

What is the limit on the number of single level cars that 1MW HEP can power these days? It would seem that that would be hard limit on the length of single level trains these days since Amtrak (and possibly FRA and possibly current technical limitations) does allow the use of two separate HEP sources on a train.

I know in other countries EOGs (End on Generation) and HOGs (Head on Generation) powered trains of 26 or so cars are not uncommon.

Good question. I do know that by going to all LED lighting Amtrak was able to add a car to Auto Train (now 16); I'd guess around 20 single-level cars would max out the HEP. HEP as currently designed only allows for one power source. I suppose one could loop at the middle of the train and put an HEP-only engine at the end, but then you'd be dragging that engine along with the (long) train.

I don't believe such split HEP on a single train is allowed at present by at least Amtrak and perhaps is dictated so by the FRA (not sure about that).

 

[railiner]

Isn't the Canadian HEP? I've read that they have very long summer consists...how do they manage?

 

[jis]

I am told that Canadian HEP is different from US HEP. But I have never yet worked out the details of it in my mind, so don;t know in what way they are different.

 

[railiner]

Could be they rely on old-tech batteries and axle generators, at least on a supplemental basis? I kind of doubt that, but, who knows?

 

[jis]

Could be they rely on old-tech batteries and axle generators, at least on a supplemental basis? I kind of doubt that, but, who knows?

They might in some places. But my understanding is that that is not the case on the Canadian or the Ocean or the Corridor trains.

 

[PRR 60]

I am told that Canadian HEP is different from US HEP. But I have never yet worked out the details of it in my mind, so don;t know in what way they are different.

There are a lot of similarities with some significant differences.

Both the Amtrak and Canadian HEP systems use four sets of 4/0, 480V, three-phase cables through the train (train line). Both provide 1200kW HEP total capacity for the train. So the maximum load that can be supported by the Amtrak and the Canadian systems is the same.

The difference is in the way the power is distributed from the generator source(s) to the cars. Amtrak takes all four cables and ties them together at a junction point in each car. Electrically, the four cables act as one cable with four parallel paths. Since the four cables are connected, there can be only one generator as the source (barring the very difficult trick of frequency synchronizing two generators in two separate locomotives). Effectively, the Amtrak system is one generator, one circuit, and a failure anywhere in that circuit kills the entire system.

The Canadian system also uses the four 4/0 cables, but acting as four circuits. Each car is wired to use one of the four circuits, with the cars alternating from Train Line 1 (TL1) to 2, 3 and 4 to even the load distribution among the circuit. The cables run with two on the left side and two on the right side. Those pairs of cables can be sourced from separate generators (two locomotives) - one locomotive powering the two left-side circuits, and one the two right-side circuit. Since the left and right pairs are electrically separate, synchronizing the two generators is not required.

The Canadian system is set up for reliability. If a failure occurs on one side of the system (left or right), or with one of the two generators, automatic transfer switches connect the affected cars to the other side of the electrical system, and load shedding devices reduce the power load in each car to stay within the half system capacity. Despite the fault, train power stays on, although lighting, HVAC and other load will be reduced. With Amtrak, a fault must be cleared for the system to work.

So, basically, the two systems are physically similar and have the same capacity. However, a schematic diagrams of the Amtrak system would be one line from a single generator to all the cars, and the Canadian system would be four lines, two from each of two generators, and each car being fed from just one of the four lines, with the cars alternating the lines.

Clear (as mud)?

 

[railiner]

Yes...clear (as mud)!

So...if I understand what you are saying, the VIA system has two locomotives supplying HEP to the train at the same time? While Amtrak trains with two locomotives have just one supplying HEP at a time (if one goes down, the other one then goes on line?)

I still don't get why VIA can run a much longer train, if both supply the same total KWH at a time....

 

[Ryan]

The Via train has two generators Operating at the same time and can therefore provide twice as much power as the Amtrak train only using one generator at a time.