Lessons learned from CHI-STL HSR YouTube video from High Speed Rail Alliance

[NSC1109]

l haven't yet taken the time to watch the original video but for me the #1 issue on passenger rail projects in the united states is we need to have concrete and enforceable months/years and days when the frequency (number of trains per day) will actually be increased. Also not just when the number of daily frequencies will be allowed to increase by law. When they will actually happen. The biggest issue with the michigan service to me isn't the infrastructure, it is that they have not increased the number of trains per day so most customers won't see an added benefit from more travel options. Governments and private companies seem happy to fund track/signal or even equipment purchases on occasion. But when the steel meets the rails per se, the general public will only see a benefit when more trains are actually running every day and I hope not just on these lines mentioned but other new proposals along this line have firm dates when new trains will actually be running, not just vague ideas about adding capacity so we may be able to add trains at some point in the distant future

You need demand before you add frequencies. We’re still very much in a pandemic. The full MI Service roster isn’t back yet (I believe we are still missing 352/353). Even then, there’s a reason why we haven’t gotten above the three Wolverine RTs and one each for the Blue Water and Pere Marquette.

If they ran on time consistently, that would be an excellent way to start. Unfortunately with CN on one side of the route and NS on the other (both of whom are notorious for freight delays), it’s going to take the STB and even potentially Congress getting involved to see any sort of measurable improvement.

 

[amtrakpass]

Thankfully, The full wolverine schedule is returning this coming Tues Sep 7th I believe. I do hear what you are saying and it would be ideal if on time performance came first, then ridership, then additional frequencies. However in my opinion the Michigan trains have pretty good ridership as is and could support 5 round-trips a day. For comparison the Downeaster to Maine has 5 roundtrips currently to a smaller population base. But either way 3 trains a day as we'll have again soon on the Wolverine is something I wish we could say for all Amtrak routes nationwide

 

[George Harris]

There is an explanation of why trains are not going over 90 mph in the near future. Basically it takes too many seconds for the computers to coordinate the gps, and radio signals from trains to ensure safe operation above 90 mph.

Increased frequencies to 10 round trips a day requires double tracking entire line with some triple track.

Not necessarily. The Santa Fe ran 6 trains per day in each direction at 90 mph for years over their single track line across Kansas and Colorado, and these were not just the more or less fixed consist of trains with the same number of stops, but a variety of trains from the Super Chief and El Capitan down to nameless mail trains.

 

[Steve4031]

Not necessarily. The Santa Fe ran 6 trains per day in each direction at 90 mph for years over their single track line across Kansas and Colorado, and these were not just the more or less fixed consist of trains with the same number of stops, but a variety of trains from the Super Chief and El Capitan down to nameless mail trains.

I agree with you that the older way worked better. But now we are dealing with the age of free range parenting where people raise their precious children to be able to do whatever they want without consequences. Therefore everyone else, including companies have to over engineer everything to ensure that the most incompetent irresponsible idiots are prevented from venturing onto the tracks. Then everyone wants to file a lawsuit against the railroad.

In the days of the 90 mph running on the Santa Fe any kid in one of those small towns along the tracks wandered too close would have had an encounter with a belt or a switch. An adult, I’m assuming the train was delayed but no lawsuits filed.

 

[toddinde]

You need demand before you add frequencies. We’re still very much in a pandemic. The full MI Service roster isn’t back yet (I believe we are still missing 352/353). Even then, there’s a reason why we haven’t gotten above the three Wolverine RTs and one each for the Blue Water and Pere Marquette.

If they ran on time consistently, that would be an excellent way to start. Unfortunately with CN on one side of the route and NS on the other (both of whom are notorious for freight delays), it’s going to take the STB and even potentially Congress getting involved to see any sort of measurable improvement.

I agree with you on the timekeeping, but actually frequencies come before ridership. That’s what they discovered in the Capital Corridor in California and with the Hiawatha’s between Chicago and Milwaukee. You need seven round trips a day before ridership really takes off. That’s just the reality. People need to know they can get a train within about two hours of when they want to leave and arrive. Frequency and reliability are more important than speed within reason. It has to be competitive with driving and reliable, of course. Faster than driving with frequencies and on-time, and you really have something. We need to ask ourselves why this is so hard in this country. It can’t be entirely unique to passenger railroading, and shows a profound dysfunction in our system that calls into question our overall competitiveness in the world.

 

[MARC Rider]

But now we are dealing with the age of free range parenting where people raise their precious children to be able to do whatever they want without consequences. Therefore everyone else, including companies have to over engineer everything to ensure that the most incompetent irresponsible idiots are prevented from venturing onto the tracks. Then everyone wants to file a lawsuit against the railroad.

In the days of the 90 mph running on the Santa Fe any kid in one of those small towns along the tracks wandered too close would have had an encounter with a belt or a switch. An adult, I’m assuming the train was delayed but no lawsuits filed.

Huh? I thought the problem today was more that people are "helicopter parenting" their kids, not letting them roam free, like we did back in the good old days. Anyway, most kids are now inside today playing with their video games, so there's probably even less of a chance that some kids will wander on to the tracks and get killed. The real problem is probably idiot drivers who try to outrace the train and drive around the gates at grade crossings.

 

[NSC1109]

I agree with you on the timekeeping, but actually frequencies come before ridership. That’s what they discovered in the Capital Corridor in California and with the Hiawatha’s between Chicago and Milwaukee. You need seven round trips a day before ridership really takes off. That’s just the reality. People need to know they can get a train within about two hours of when they want to leave and arrive. Frequency and reliability are more important than speed within reason. It has to be competitive with driving and reliable, of course. Faster than driving with frequencies and on-time, and you really have something. We need to ask ourselves why this is so hard in this country. It can’t be entirely unique to passenger railroading, and shows a profound dysfunction in our system that calls into question our overall competitiveness in the world.

You also have to deal with two hostile host railroads who can’t seem to figure out a way to run their own trains let alone Amtrak. CN has gotten marginally better in Michigan but only because the traffic has taken a downturn. NS in Indiana and Chicago is a complete mess. We can’t even interchange our trains to them because they’re so backed up.

Even if MI was willing to pay, even if the equipment was available, even if there was absolutely demand for it, NS isn’t going to allow any more Amtrak services on their line unless the STB drags them to the table kicking and screaming. It’s exactly what they did in the Southeast with this new Gulf Coast service, and they’ll have to do it again if Amtrak wants to build up their Chicago hub.

 

[Steve4031]

This the need to build a separate right of way fir Amtrak between Union Station and Porter. There’s plenty of room east of Englwood. Not sure between Union station and Englewood goin around that yard.

 

[Willbridge]

I agree with you on the timekeeping, but actually frequencies come before ridership. That’s what they discovered in the Capital Corridor in California and with the Hiawatha’s between Chicago and Milwaukee. You need seven round trips a day before ridership really takes off. That’s just the reality. People need to know they can get a train within about two hours of when they want to leave and arrive. Frequency and reliability are more important than speed within reason. It has to be competitive with driving and reliable, of course. Faster than driving with frequencies and on-time, and you really have something. We need to ask ourselves why this is so hard in this country. It can’t be entirely unique to passenger railroading, and shows a profound dysfunction in our system that calls into question our overall competitiveness in the world.

As a rule of thumb, the curve of ridership drawn by service frequency hits a peak at the running time for a customer's trip. That's why people give up and climb stairs when elevators run infrequently but would wait far longer for a flight from DEN to LHR.

First identify which markets and submarkets (clusters of passenger trips) you expect to have the most potential, figure out what their travel time is and then you can round that to a headway.

This wasn't discovered recently. It applies to bus lines, ferries, etc. And yes, it's only a rule of thumb and can be affected by other factors (especially connections or their lack). Try it out. Chicago<>Detroit may have bigger submarkets than Chicago <> St. Louis, so perhaps a two-hour headway would make sense in Michigan and a three-hour headway in Illinois, not including the Texas Eagle in the clock pattern.

 

[NSC1109]

This the need to build a separate right of way fir Amtrak between Union Station and Porter. There’s plenty of room east of Englwood. Not sure between Union station and Englewood goin around that yard.

It’s been tossed around at Amtrak, but the lift bridges in Indiana and Illinois are a major obstacle. They’re double tracked and the other spans haven’t been used in years, possibly decades. They would have to either be completely replaced or repaired, either way a MASSIVE investment of capital to get them working again. Add in higher-speed track, signaling, PTC, radio tower repeaters, defect detectors, switches….the costs are a nonstarter

 

[Steve4031]

It’s been tossed around at Amtrak, but the lift bridges in Indiana and Illinois are a major obstacle. They’re double tracked and the other spans haven’t been used in years, possibly decades. They would have to either be completely replaced or repaired, either way a MASSIVE investment of capital to get them working again. Add in higher-speed track, signaling, PTC, radio tower repeaters, defect detectors, switches….the costs are a nonstarter

Can’t do vs can do. I say the high speed line takes a different alignment and crosses over the water on higher bridges to give clearance for boat traffic. If this country wants to get serious about easing congestion on expressways then stuff like this HAS to get done.

 

[NSC1109]

Can’t do vs can do. I say the high speed line takes a different alignment and crosses over the water on higher bridges to give clearance for boat traffic. If this country wants to get serious about easing congestion on expressways then stuff like this HAS to get done.

Have you ridden the route between Porter and Chicago recently? There isn’t really room for a new alignment let alone something that will avoid the issues presented by the canals. We’re talking billions of dollars to rework dozens of miles of track. No one is going to bounce for it, unfortunately.

 

[Eric S]

Have you ridden the route between Porter and Chicago recently? There isn’t really room for a new alignment let alone something that will avoid the issues presented by the canals. We’re talking billions of dollars to rework dozens of miles of track. No one is going to bounce for it, unfortunately.

I had thought, after riding through there plenty of times and looking at satellite views, that although there might be a couple pinch points in Indiana, for the most part adequate right of way exists in Indiana. It seemed to me like the trickiest needle to thread is in Chicago around Englewood.

I don't recall if the stillborn South of the Lake route study identified preferred alternatives, nor if any of those study documents are floating around out there online.

 

[Steve4031]

The NYC and Pennsylvania RR had parallel right of ways from Englewood east. I rode that round on 9/6/21 most recently. Have ridden it many times.

 

[Nick Farr]

The Texas Central HSR project hasn't had any cost issues as far as I know,

Which is easy for an organization that hasn't built a single mile of track.

Basically it takes too many seconds for the computers to coordinate the gps, and radio signals from trains to ensure safe operation above 90 mph.

Also nonsense. Computers can coordinate all of those things and they do in China, Japan and Europe. The core issues preventing safe operation are the equipment, reaction times for the trains/crews, lack of automated line issue prevention warnings and still way, way too many grade crossings along with pure experience. In time, upgrades can/will allow for faster operation. Double tracking the entire line may slightly speed things up but you can accomplish the same thing with very selective double and triple tracking based on scheduling.

Airplanes have had GPS equipment for nearly 15 years and Air Traffic is still largely routed based on waypoints. It doesn't mean ARTCCs cannot route planes safely between direct pathways, it's just a very different way of operating that requires a very long adjustment period. Same for this line.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In the days of the 90 mph running on the Santa Fe any kid in one of those small towns along the tracks wandered too close would have had an encounter with a belt or a switch. An adult, I’m assuming the train was delayed but no lawsuits filed.

I grew up along the Santa Fe mainline and explored the tracks, yards, and rolling stock with impunity as a child. Nobody raised an eyebrow or laid a hand on me and sometimes they let me climb aboard a switcher for a better look.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Hold on a second... Wikipedia says that 110mph service began between Dwight and Pontiac in 2012. Is that true? That's hard to believe. I don't remember that last time I rode. I'll be taking the 6:40am from St. Louis next week, I'll pay close attention.

Also apparently there was an "agreement" between UP and the state of IL for 110mph back in 2010. Can IL sue if it keeps getting delayed? With the progress in Michigan, I'm optimistic, but apparently we were supposed to be at the finish line in 2017...

 

[Cal]

Hold on a second... Wikipedia says that 110mph service began between Dwight and Pontiac in 2012. Is that true? That's hard to believe. I don't remember that last time I rode. I'll be taking the 6:40am from St. Louis next week, I'll pay close attention.

I believe it either was once true, then reverted back down to 79 or they began testing the line but didn't get further than that.

 

[Steve4031]

There was a period of time that trains operated at up 110 mph on that segment. The conductor would sometimes make an announcement. Then they stopped and reverted back to 79 mph.

This summer 90 mph is routine between Alton and Joliet.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

There was a period of time that trains operated at up 110 mph on that segment. The conductor would sometimes make an announcement. Then they stopped and reverted back to 79 mph.

This summer 90 mph is routine between Alton and Joliet.

That is truly bizarre. What happened? Did UP or the FRA step in?

 

[MikefromCrete]

That is truly bizarre. What happened? Did UP or the FRA step in?

Go up to the original post and watch the video.