Location of Sleepers in Consist

[fredmcain]

Group,

I have been wondering what Amtrak's rationale is for placing sleepers near the head end of the train behind the locomotive. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

I'm old enough to remember that prior to the coming of Amtrak, most railroads placed their sleepers at or near the end of the train. Then, after Amtrak took over, they often continued with that practice for a number of years. However, more recently they have started placing sleepers at the front of the train. Why?

My feelings are that since you have to pay a premium fare for sleeping car space, they ought to put you at the back of the train away from the noise of the engines and exhaust odors. What's worse, at Chicago, first class passengers have to walk past the coaches and diner all the way to the head end of the train. Why is Amtrak doing this? Any ideas? Would they consider changing this again back to the way it was before?

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

 

[BlackDiamond]

What's worse, at Chicago, first class passengers have to walk past the coaches and diner all the way to the head end of the train

Of course that is only true for departure. Arriving at CUS your sleeper at the front of the train is now closer to the headhouse. If sleepers were on the rear you would get the long walk upon arrival.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I think part of it is the sway - rougher ride in the back. The eastern trains have the sleepers on the back with a baggage car and/or a bag-dorm as the last car to minimize the sway. I don't know how much help a baggage car would help on the superliner trains.

 

[TheCrescent]

On the Crescent, sleepers are at the back, just ahead of the baggage-dorm.

 

[jruff001]

It seems like a lot of the non-Superliner trains still have the sleeping cars at the back.

I think one of the main reasons for the sleeping cars at the front with the Superliner-equipped trains is because the transition cars are all sleepers. The transition cars have to be at the front of course for baggage car access, and since Amtrak decided to use some of those rooms as revenue sleepers it makes sense to have all the sleeping cars together in one part of the train (at least a train that doesn't split into sections). Especially since the transition car doesn't get its own attendant.

Before the (relatively) new transition cars of the Amtrak era, the legacy RR high-level transition cars that Amtrak inherited were half crew dorm rooms at the front and half coach seating at the rear. Perhaps Amtrak should have kept a similar layout when it introduced the new transition cars.

 

[Joe from PA]

The 2 "Silver" NYC to Miami trains are sleepers in rear. It works out well in Philadelphia because the elevator from the "Acela/ Sleeper" lounge goes to that position on the platform.

 

[jis]

Before the (relatively) new transition cars of the Amtrak era, the legacy RR high-level transition cars that Amtrak inherited were half crew dorm rooms at the front and half coach seating at the rear. Perhaps Amtrak should have kept a similar layout when it introduced the new transition cars.

What Amtrak inherited from Santa Fe were Transition Coaches. Amtrak converted them to Coach-Dorms. That is why the Dorm portion has Amfleet windows on them.

 

[jruff001]

What Amtrak inherited from Santa Fe were Transition Coaches. Amtrak converted them to Coach-Dorms. That is why the Dorm portion has Amfleet windows on them.

Thanks for the correction. The dorm spaces were pretty old and grim IIRC so I thought they were inherited that way. And I didn't remember the Amfleet windows! That was a long time ago now.

Still the point is maybe Amtrak should have stayed with that idea and kept them as transition coaches instead of sleepers if it wanted to keep sleeping cars at the rear (which I believe is the better location for them for the reasons stated by others here) and use some of the transition car space for revenue.

 

[jis]

Thanks for the correction. The dorm spaces were pretty old and grim IIRC so I thought they were inherited that way. And I didn't remember the Amfleet windows! That was a long time ago now.

Frankly I remembered that they were originally Transition Coaches, because I had ridden in one before it underwent conversion.

Incidentally, I agree with your core point. It was mentioned to me once by someone at Amtrak way back when that their intention was to sell space in the rear half of the car to customers. But as with many things Amtrak, it sort of went of half-cocked.

 

[rs9]

I have read a fair amount of reviews of LSL NYP-bound or originating sleepers at the back of the train in which folks reference the swaying of the cars as inhibiting sleep. Not a random sample by any stretch, but something I've noted.

While I've never been in a sleeper, I would think swaying cars would be better than horn noise. However, if there were 2 engines plus a baggage car, the first sleeper might not be too bad for the horn.

 

[Rasputin]

Perhaps I have led a charmed life but I have never noticed any swaying, jumping or other untoward activity when I have ridden a sleeper or a coach at the rear of a train. I have never felt that the Portland sleeper at the rear of the Empire Builder or the Texas Eagle thru sleeper at the rear of the Sunset ride any different than the other sleepers misplaced at the front.

I find it hard to believe that Amtrak management, which brought us contemporary dining and flexible dining and which removed the sightseer lounge car from the Texas Eagle, give a hoot about passenger comfort.

 

[Exvalley]

Perhaps I have led a charmed life but I have never noticed any swaying, jumping or other untoward activity when I have ridden a sleeper or a coach at the rear of a train.

Agreed. I’m convinced that it’s mostly a myth, especially on a train with only ten or so cars.

 

[Cal]

I personally agree that it's due to them wanting to keep all sleeper rooms together and the transdorm prohibits that. In my travels the horn was only really excessively loud on my May 2021 Texas Eagle trip where there was one engine and the one sleeper was right behind it. When there's the usual two engines, baggage car, and transdorm the horn doesn't bother me in the least.

 

[SP&S]

I may be crazy, may??? and I've never been right behind a lone engine but I like the sound of the horn. It's as if there's something reassuring about it.

 

[Ryan]

Perhaps I have led a charmed life but I have never noticed any swaying, jumping or other untoward activity when I have ridden a sleeper or a coach at the rear of a train. I have never felt that the Portland sleeper at the rear of the Empire Builder or the Texas Eagle thru sleeper at the rear of the Sunset ride any different than the other sleepers misplaced at the front.

That may well be true in Superliners, but I can tell you that the miserable night I spent in the last row in coach of the last car of the Crescent made a believer out of me. Constant thrashing from side to side made sleep nearly impossible. I've never been in a Viewliner on the tail end to see what that ride is like.

 

[BlackDiamond]

However, if there were 2 engines plus a baggage car, the first sleeper might not be too bad for the horn.

For the LSL the Boston section no longer has a baggage car so the Boston sleeper is right behind the second engine. Personally the horn never bothered me I actually like it.

 

[Exvalley]

It's one of those issues that people will always have different opinions about. (Similar to toilets in Viewliner roomettes.)

I personally like the sleeper to be at the rear of the train, which is why I always book the New York section of the Lake Shore Limited when I board in Albany.

 

[Rasputin]

That may well be true in Superliners, but I can tell you that the miserable night I spent in the last row in coach of the last car of the Crescent made a believer out of me. Constant thrashing from side to side made sleep nearly impossible. I've never been in a Viewliner on the tail end to see what that ride is like.

I wonder if this is a problem with the track more than the car or the placement of the car in the train. I have ridden a number of viewliners and coaches which have been the last car in the train. Also the Park observation cars at the end of a number of VIA and CP trains over the years such as the Atlantic and the Canadian. I have never noticed a problem with excessive swaying.

However I did notice a lot of jumping and swaying on a superliner sleeper on the CONO even though it was the second car in the train. I thought I was going to be bounced from the bed a number of times. I also remember a problem once on the CP Atlantic LImited when there was a lot of bouncing (that sleeper had great springs from what I could tell) and that was only a four car train. I think those were more track issues than car or position problems. Might have been an issue with the yaw damper or lack thereof.

 

[Ryan]

Perhaps a combination of the two or a car defect. I've had a handful of trips on the Crescent and the only time I noted the issue was out at the tail end. Whatever it was, it was truly dreadful.

 

[Railspike]

My experience on the CONO is that the tracks that belong to CN are ROUGH. We were traveling north out of NO and were almost thrown out of a booth in the SSL and those walking through the car had to hold on for dear life. It's not the location of the cars, it's the track.

 

[Ryan]

It's not the location of the cars, it's the track.

That’s an overly broad statement that is not applicable in all cases.

 

[Maglev]

I think we may be hearing more about tail-end whiplash this year as the causes of the Empire Builder derailment are revealed.

 

[EmCee Al]

Allow me to throw some gasoline on this fire! As I recall from the 60's, the NYC almost always placed their sleepers on the rear of a train and the PRR almost always placed theirs in the front. When I worked at Amtrak in DC for a short time in the early 70's, there were several ex-PRR types who joined management, and I noticed then that sleepers were almost always on the front. Whether that was due to PRR influence is a good question.

Fast forward to more recent times, as I had traveled on the Cal Zephyr out of CHI several times, I noticed that sleepers were most often on the rear. More recently, sleepers have been on the front of the train. I read that a reason for that may have been to allow a coach to be added/removed from the consist in Denver. I don't think that move has recently happened, but nevertheless, sleepers remain in the front.

Of course, what happens on the CalZephyr does not apply to any other train. But speculation is fun.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Allow me to throw some gasoline on this fire! As I recall from the 60's, the NYC almost always placed their sleepers on the rear of a train and the PRR almost always placed theirs in the front. When I worked at Amtrak in DC for a short time in the early 70's, there were several ex-PRR types who joined management, and I noticed then that sleepers were almost always on the front. Whether that was due to PRR influence is a good question.

Fast forward to more recent times, as I had traveled on the Cal Zephyr out of CHI several times, I noticed that sleepers were most often on the rear. More recently, sleepers have been on the front of the train. I read that a reason for that may have been to allow a coach to be added/removed from the consist in Denver. I don't think that move has recently happened, but nevertheless, sleepers remain in the front.

Of course, what happens on the CalZephyr does not apply to any other train. But speculation is fun.

Before the COVID Era, the Zephyr used to have the the position of the Sleepers in the consist based on the Season.

The Texas Eagle has a unique situation due to the Thru Cars ( Sleeper and Coach #421/#422) that are switched in San Antonio to/from the Sunset Ltd.( the Cut out Coach that used to be adddd/dropped between Chicago and St Louis is no longer happening, and when it was, it would be on behind the #2120/#2130 Sleeper on the rear of the Train)

During "Normal Times" whether or not the the #2230 Sleeper is on the Rear or Front of #22 between SAS and Chicago is up to the Switching Crew, it's a 50/50 thing.

On the other hand, #421 always has the thru Cars switched to the rear of #1 for the Trip from SAS-LAX.

Currently with the Short Consist of #21/#22, only 4 Cars, the Thru Sleeper (#2230/#2130)is always on the Front of #22/#21, and also serves as the Crew Dorm since there's no Transdorm or Sightseer Lounge or Bag Car on the Eagle.