Long Distance Business Class -- A practical idea?

[jis]

The fact that Amtrak manages to call both the 2x1 ex Metroclubs and the 28xxx 2x2 ex-Metroliner Coach both BC is more an artifact of its inability to buy and furnish enough cars with enough 2x1 seats. I think. BC demand is way higher than Amtrak can afford to buy actual seats to satisfy the demand using 2x1 seating. The only rational way to rationalize this at present unrotunately is to simply get rid of the 2x1 seating arrangemnt altogether on single level trains and replace them with standard ex-Metroliner Coach 2x2 seating with slightly greater pitch than standard corridor coach seats. That is why for now I'd rather let the sleeping dog lie so that at least on some routes we still get tio enjoy 2x1.

It is fine to plan all kinds of nice uniformity, but with Amtrak's current budgetary and inventory situation, if since they can apparently command the same BC fare using 2x1 or 2x2 seating, the rational thing to do is to get rid of the 2x1 seating altogether. but I would not want to put ideas in their head.

The train length and slot situation on the NEC will remain a bottleneck even if Amtrak could get hold of as many cars as it wants, so it is not like suddenly Amtrak will jump in with western style low density coach and BC seating on NEC trains. There will always be a significant difference between Corridor and LD Coach seats - that is part of my original point.

 

[Blackwolf]

"CRACKS OPEN AN OLD TOPIC"​

I've unfortunately had to neglect my train travel habits since January, an unfortunate reality that has no end in sight at the moment. This being said, I am curious to know if anyone has an idea where the plan to place Business Class on the Coast Starlight has ended up? Last was heard, Amtrak was actively in the process of taking Acela leather BC seats and preparing to place them in the lower level of the former Coachclass/Arcade car. But it's been six months since that was news.

The market still eagerly awaits!

 

[zephyr17]

"CRACKS OPEN AN OLD TOPIC"​

I've unfortunately had to neglect my train travel habits since January, an unfortunate reality that has no end in sight at the moment. This being said, I am curious to know if anyone has an idea where the plan to place Business Class on the Coast Starlight has ended up? Last was heard, Amtrak was actively in the process of taking Acela leather BC seats and preparing to place them in the lower level of the former Coachclass/Arcade car. But it's been six months since that was news.

The market still eagerly awaits!

Remember that on Amtrak timescales, 6 months is just the blink of an eye.

 

[rickycourtney]

Last was heard, Amtrak was actively in the process of taking Acela leather BC seats and preparing to place them in the lower level of the former Coachclass/Arcade car. But it's been six months since that was news.

While I'm very supportive of Amtrak doing an experiment with Businessclass on long-distance trains... the more I think about it... the more I think using the Acela-style seats is the wrong way to go.

Amtrak should look into installing lie-flat seats (like the ones found in business and first class on most long-distance flights). They're a much better option for sleeping than a reclining seat... at a lower price than a roomette designed for two.

I realize that this would create yet another type of Businessclass seat... but I argue that airlines have customers used to this inconsistency (most transcon flights only have reclining first class seats, but international flights have lie-flat first class seats.)

 

[Barciur]

This is the first time I read this topic so I must ask this question.

Somebody mentioned couchettes, European style. Has anything like that ever existed here? if yes, why was it eliminated? that seems like a wonderful idea. Much better than coach, shoulld be much cheaper than a private roomette.

 

[jis]

This is the first time I read this topic so I must ask this question.

Somebody mentioned couchettes, European style. Has anything like that ever existed here? if yes, why was it eliminated? that seems like a wonderful idea. Much better than coach, shoulld be much cheaper than a private roomette.

Americans apparently prefer more privacy than Europeans do when they are sleeping horizontally, or so it is claimed. But then again even Sections had disappeared in the US before Amtrak started, and there one has considerable privacy with judicious use of curtains.

Then again the same Americans seem to have no problem in sleeping on lie flat seats in International Business or First Class on planes. So honestly I have no clue, except that I know that there are strong feeling about this matter.

 

[Barciur]

That is interesting... and weird. In Europe, as far as I know, majority of sleepers are shared. You get 3 sleeping beds in a sleeper room, and then there are dual options and single. It's weird.

I would definitely take an option of a couchette, because I can't afford a sleeper and that would be way way more comfortable.

 

[Anderson]

Honestly, I'd rather stick with a private room given the choice, but there are definitely times when I might take a couchette/section due to cost considerations. If Amtrak's sleeper fares go up another 25% in real terms, I'd start looking into it more seriously.

Part of the problem is that Amtrak just doesn't have the cars to do a lot of experimenting with and they can fill what they have (and then some)...it's not like they've got the cash and cars to take ten Viewliners to renovate and toss in such an option on the Silvers. Another part the fact that Amtrak really seems to want to keep standardized accommodations across most or all trains, and having almost all sleepers fall into two categories certainly helps with being able to interchange equipment. I can't see them doing something like this on one overnight train, single-level or bilevel, and not doing it for most of the others in the same category.

 

[Alika]

Last was heard, Amtrak was actively in the process of taking Acela leather BC seats and preparing to place them in the lower level of the former Coachclass/Arcade car. But it's been six months since that was news.

While I'm very supportive of Amtrak doing an experiment with Businessclass on long-distance trains... the more I think about it... the more I think using the Acela-style seats is the wrong way to go.

Amtrak should look into installing lie-flat seats (like the ones found in business and first class on most long-distance flights). They're a much better option for sleeping than a reclining seat... at a lower price than a roomette designed for two.

I realize that this would create yet another type of Businessclass seat... but I argue that airlines have customers used to this inconsistency (most transcon flights only have reclining first class seats, but international flights have lie-flat first class seats.)

I'm with you, Ricky. While Amtrak's service improvement plan indicates they're planning to install Acela-style business class seating on the Starlight, I think it would make more sense to install a lie-flat seat in recognition that this is an (up t0) overnight service. While I slept in European couchettes when I lived abroad in college, there are ...well... lots of things I did in college that I don't do anymore, and that would likely be one of them. As one who rides the Starlight at least once or twice a year, there are times when I'm not travelling with family and just want somewhere with some privacy and a flat surface on which to sleep.

Since Amtrak uses in-floor tracks (similar to the airlines) to bolt down their seats, it seems they'd be able to patronize vendors who currently provide the premium seating product to the airlines. I'm reasonably familiar with the airlines' premium offerings these days, and I've read the complaints about side-by-side sleeper seats that don't allow the window passenger direct access to the aisle. For that reason, I think the herringbone-style business class offerings of Delta, Air Canada, and Virgin Atlantic (and maybe others?) might fit the bill. While each seat would have direct aisle access and partitions high enough to provide reasonable seated/sleeping privacy, their diagonal nature means that providing a 78" sleeping surface would not take up 78" of seat pitch. It also could allow for increased privacy and better window viewing.

While the above arrangement is more comfortable, Amtrak would not be able to fit in as many of these seats compared to their Acela business-class seating. Prices for lie-flat business class (perhaps Amtrak could use their forthcoming"Amtrak America" sub-brand to call it "Amtrak America Business") could be keyed to somewhere between 75% more than coach and half of the going Roomette bucket price, so as to not cannibalize the sleepers while still pulling in enough cash to cover the cost of about 2 coach fares.

All the above being said, I think it's more likely that Amtrak will just buy additional Acela business-class seats from their existing supplier and add them to the former Arcade space. Only equipment and fairly standard installation costs would be incurred and no revenue lost means a win-win in their book. If I read their service improvement plan correctly, they will likely charge a rate similar to other business-class offerings on the Pacific Surfliner route. That's a great deal for customers, but good luck finding an available seat between LA and San Luis Obispo. The newly opened Metropolitan Lounge in LA also is a value add for this business-class ticket.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The problem with sections is that they take up the same space per person as Amtrak's current roomettes.

For example, I think there were 18-section "lightweight" railcars in the US that would've carried 36 passengers each. There were also 22-roomette "lightweight" railcars that carried only 22 passengers because back then Roomettes were only for one passenger. So in those days, riding a section was cheaper than a roomette.

But Amtrak slapped an extra berth into each roomette, so now that same 22-roomette car would have a capacity of 44 passengers, more than the 36 of the all-section car because the all-section car had extra public restroom(s) while the roomettes had personal toilets. Thus, in Amtrak's current configuration, a section fare would be at least the same or higher than a roomette fare.

Amtrak dosen't let you share roomettes, but from a design perspective it would not be feasible to add sections to Amtrak trains.

IMO, installing airline-style lie-flat seats is a much better idea. Not fully-flat, but something with 60"-70" of pitch and about 24" width, three-across.

 

[buddy559]

It would really make a difference as to what amenities were provided. I think the simple upgrade of an available shower to the business class would really add a lot of value. Perhaps instead of 2 coach bathrooms in that car, they could have 2 shower/ toilet combo rooms.

Also offer the available option of a pre pay meal ticket. Only available prior to travel so catering could be adjusted. Perhaps only offer that to 50% of the seats so as not to add too much strain on dining car. This addition may well lock coach passengers out of the diner depending on the load, so perhaps they could offer a few upgraded options to the cafe service to fill the void, and add additional appealing options to non meal ticketed business pax.

 

[Alika]

It would really make a difference as to what amenities were provided. I think the simple upgrade of an available shower to the business class would really add a lot of value. Perhaps instead of 2 coach bathrooms in that car, they could have 2 shower/ toilet combo rooms.

Also offer the available option of a pre pay meal ticket. Only available prior to travel so catering could be adjusted. Perhaps only offer that to 50% of the seats so as not to add too much strain on dining car. This addition may well lock coach passengers out of the diner depending on the load, so perhaps they could offer a few upgraded options to the cafe service to fill the void, and add additional appealing options to non meal ticketed business pax.

At least with the Starlight, I don't think the addition of only 12 business-class seats will impact the Diner enough to shut out the Coach passengers. I don't think Amtrak plans on adding a shower to the biz-class car either. From their Performance Improvement Plan, it appears they've already decided on most of what they want to offer in this new class of service, at least initially:


[SIZE=11pt]Service will be marketed as Coast Starlight Business Class [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]in order to use existing ticketing and available designations. If successful, the possibility exists for a re-branding of this service as a [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Premium Coach [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]or other designation at a later date. Service features include: [/SIZE]

• [SIZE=11pt] Continued use of the upgraded coach pillow with the addition of a complimentary blanket. [/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] A Food credit voucher usable in dining car at a designated minimum amount of $5 per meal based on length of trip and resulting number of meals. [/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] Invitation to the wine and cheese tasting in the Pacific Parlour Car. [/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] Access to Pacific Parlour Car movie theatre. [/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] 2x2 Leather seating based upon the Acela Business Class seat.[/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] Exclusive access to the seating area with door marked for “Business Class only”.[/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] Train attendant assigned exclusive to the car. (Currently the Starlight train attendant (TA) staffing calls for 2 TAs for 3 cars and 3 TAs for 4 cars. The TA with a single car assignment will be responsible for the car containing the [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Coast Starlight Business Class [/SIZE]accommodations.)
  

• [SIZE=11pt] Child fares are to be offered consistent with existing Surfliner Business Class revenue [/SIZE]
  
  [SIZE=11pt]structure. [/SIZE]
  
• [SIZE=11pt] Overall revenue structure between Los Angeles and San Luis Obispo and Seattle and [/SIZE]
  
  [SIZE=11pt]Eugene will be fully complementary with existing Business Class offerings. [/SIZE]
  

I don't necessarily agree with the decision, but I suppose I can see why they'd want to use the existing Acela-style business-class seats in this pilot project. If enough customers feel the above features are offered at a reasonable price point, then Amtrak won't feel any pressure to improve the seating. That said, if I'm not mistaken, Acela Business Class does not offer legrests or steep recline. Since the standard coaches already offer these features, I'm guessing Amtrak will at least have to enhance this Acela seat to meet or surpass those the coach seats. Hmm.

 

[Nathanael]

I've been wondering why there has been no move to actually do the Business Class retrofit of the cars in the Coast Starlight. It seems like one of the quickest possible retrofits, it actually generates revenue, and the pressure on the fleet seems to have reduced in recent months. Maybe after Thanksgiving?

 

[CHamilton]

From the Amtrak's Coast Starlight group on Facebook:

In the March issue of Trains magazine is an article (pg 22) discussing premium-priced service and the positive effect on growing Amtrak revenue. One paragraph states: "Busines Class has thus far been limited to daytime travel..... That may change in mid-2015, when the
Coast Starlight could introduce yet another business-class variation. Details have yet to be finalized, but Starlight route director Mike Dwyer says, "Twelve seats have already been installed in the cars by Los Angles shop forces. The business-class passenger would have access to the Pacific Parlour Car, and my thoughts are to offer Wi-Fi, as well as a food coupon, which can be used in the diner and lounge."

 

[neroden]

Interesting. I'll tell you what's more interesting: the retrofit was done at LA shops. I would have expected this sort of thing to be done at Beech Grove.

 

[rickycourtney]

Interesting. I'll tell you what's more interesting: the retrofit was done at LA shops. I would have expected this sort of thing to be done at Beech Grove.

I'm honestly not that surprised. The cars that were converted were the former "kiddie car" coaches that were captive to Los Angeles... and the Los Angeles yards are VERY protective of the equipment used on the Starlight.

I'm sure they are capable of doing work like this (just swapping out seats) and they would rather do it in house than send it to Beech Grove where the work is subject to the delays that often seem to come with Beech Grove.

 

[afigg]

Saw the report on the Coast Starlight premium/BC seats getting installed in Trains Magazine a couple of weeks ago, but never got around to posting that here. It is good to see that at least one of the easier to implement revenue enhancement recommendations in the PRIIA mandated PIP reports will be implemented. In the FY12 PIP report on the CS, the 12 premium/BC seats were projected to bring in $1.5 million in additional revenue with 14,400 additional passengers. To get to 14.4K passengers with 12 seats, they are obviously counting om seat turnover with 2 main markets - LA to Bay area and Portland to Seattle - during each trip.

I wonder if a large part of the reason for the delay in adding the BC seats has been the need to modify the reservation software. The current on-line interface present 4 columns: Saver, value, Flexible, Premium. On the overnight LD trains, the premium option covers roomettes, bedrooms, family bedroom, while on the day trains, the premium option is usually the BC or First class seats. My guess is that the new CS BC seats will be inserted in the switchable Premium list, but many potential customers may miss that they could book BC seats.

 

[jis]

Moreover, this revenue will be generated and credited to the PPC. So it is all good for the continuance of the PPC too.

 

[user 1215]

Interesting. I'll tell you what's more interesting: the retrofit was done at LA shops. I would have expected this sort of thing to be done at Beech Grove.

Why?

Ricky already eluded to this, but Amtrak California is just about Amtrak in name only. I wonder if they let Amtrak touch any of their stock.

 

[Ryan]

What does Amtrak California have to do with the Coast Starlight?

 

[jis]

Interesting. I'll tell you what's more interesting: the retrofit was done at LA shops. I would have expected this sort of thing to be done at Beech Grove.

Why?

Ricky already eluded to this, but Amtrak California is just about Amtrak in name only. I wonder if they let Amtrak touch any of their stock.

Coast Starlight and the PPCs that run on them are Amtrak National Network property and have nothing to do with Amtrak California. So this has everything to do with Amtrak and nothing to do with Amtrak California.

 

[PaulM]

From the Amtrak's Coast Starlight group on Facebook:

The business-class passenger would have access to the Pacific Parlour Car, ...

This in itself would be a big selling point. I've made several day trips on the CSL and always spring for a roomette because of the parlour car. This would make more sense to me.

Whether it's a big seller or not will, of course, depends on whether Amtrak actually markets it rather than go with a stealth introduction that leaves even rail fans wondering what's happening.

 

[Blackwolf]

I will do my best at grabbing a test ride if/when this actually becomes available.

 

[Anderson]

Moreover, this revenue will be generated and credited to the PPC. So it is all good for the continuance of the PPC too.

Will it? I don't doubt that some sort of "meal credit" allowance will get credited to the diner/PPC, but I'd be more than a little surprised if the whole of the surcharge actually made its way to the PPC. Moreover, I'm not even sure how they're going to punch this into Arrow (since no train at present has both an upgrade seat class and a sleeper option). It is entirely possible that this goes in as a sleeper-type upgrade and "Stupid Roomette Tricks" are replaced with "Stupid Business Class Tricks" (wherein the reduction of the coach fare by upgrading exceeds the nominal cost of the upgrade). I suspect this would get sorted pretty easily over time, but I'm not putting it past Amtrak to blunder into that and have some real hilarity go on (wherein Amtrak allocates a share of a surcharge from a ticket that is actually reduced in cost to the PPC).

Barring that...a good chunk of the revenue will likely be allocated as "premium accommodation" revenue and not go straight to the PPC.

That said, I'm glad to see this going forward. For a while I was worried that this had been scrapped. I'll also note that this probably helps explain the size of the cuts to coach capacity on the CS this winter. The noise there also indicates that the PPCs should be coming back.

 

[rrdude]

I tell ya, thee ONLY reason I have used the roomette option on LAX to anywhere-in-the-bay-area-including-SAC, is to have access to the PPC.

The last two trips I took north on the CS, I dumped my bag in the roomette upon boarding, and didn't touch it, or sit in the roomette, again until arrival. ("NO", I did not hog a swivel seat, there was ALWAYS at least one or two open, and i migrated to the tables and couch seating frm time-to-time)

I just hope they keep the swivel seats, well, "swiveling" in the refurb.