Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[GiantsFan]

Not sure of the exact details, but it looks like Alstom figured out accessibility and double deck coaches on the new TGV M

• Accessibility to every area of the train for all passengers. This is the first TGV to be designed in close collaboration with wheelchair user groups from the very beginning. The TGV M will also be the first to offer fully independent boarding.

 

[fengshui]

Not sure of the exact details, but it looks like Alstom figured out accessibility and double deck coaches on the new TGV M

• Accessibility to every area of the train for all passengers. This is the first TGV to be designed in close collaboration with wheelchair user groups from the very beginning. The TGV M will also be the first to offer fully independent boarding.

Is there any more detail than this? What is the source?

 

[west point]

Can someone cite the Alstom solution and whatt are the cars loading guage? Once available will make a post.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Is there any more detail than this? What is the source?

Alstom.
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/9/tgv-m-takes-new-step

 

[MARC Rider]

Alstom.
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/9/tgv-m-takes-new-step

I wouldn't consider the TGV to be a model for long-distance cars. I suspect that even though it may handle 2 levels of coach-type seating, I would be surprised that it would accommodate upper and lower berths on 2 levels, unless the upper berths were even more cramped than those on the Superliners. Why the strong desire to have bi-level long distance trains? I find that the stairs on the Superliners are a pain. Single level equipment is fine, and would be excellent if they use the car shell profile of the Viewliners, which give one a very roomy upper berth.

 

[user 14106]

Why the strong desire to have bi-level long distance trains? I find that the stairs on the Superliners are a pain. Single level equipment is fine, and would be excellent if they use the car shell profile of the Viewliners, which give one a very roomy upper berth.

The one area where I see a strong argument for bilevel is the Auto Train. Bilevel cars serve that route well. Though I suppose if Amtrak goes single level in most places maybe they’d rebuild the best Superliner cars for the auto train and not make the change there.

 

[Ryan]

Concur. Take the best ones from the entire fleet, strip the remaining ones for spare parts, and the AT can remain SL-equipped for quite some time.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

On that new Alstom train and accessibility: NOPE! Read carefully, it appears to be one car that is accessible not the entire train. European accessibility requirements (despite the attention some English language YouTubers give accessibility) are far less rigorous than the ADA.

 

[dlagrua]

My guess remains that Amtrak will choose a Siemens single level sleeper reconfigured to resemble a similar Viewliner 2 design that would be more appealing to the American taste. The loss might be some high revenue bedrooms but they could always ask for a deluxe all bedroom single level sleeper car design.

 

[jis]

Can someone cite the Alstom solution and whatt are the cars loading guage? Once available will make a post.

Avelia Horizons also known as SNCF TGV-M as deployed by SNCF is highly configurable design at the time of manufacturing. They can be ordered either as 14.2' tall or 15.4' tall, and as 9.5' wide or 10.5' wide. They can be ordered for track gauges 4'8.5", 5' (well actually 4' 11 27/32") or 5'6" with variable gauge available.

The SNCF rendition is apparently (14.2', 10.5', 4' 8.5") variety.

As for wheelchair access, this is what is known from the document TGV M takes new step:

A pivoting lifting platform will allow wheelchair users to access the train independently, right up to the room reserved for them, and a sound system to locate the doors will guide visually impaired people when they board.

Basically each vestibule will have an elevator which can raise or lower a wheelchair to provide wheelchair access to the two levels. Truly universally accessible train. Pretty amazing actually. See this video...



Of course in France they will also have to provide automatically deployed bridge plates to provide access from platform to the boarding level of the train. But that is easily done. We already know how that is provided even for boarding from low level platforms as outfitted in the new Brightline Cars.

 

[Cal]

Avelia Horizons also known as SNCF TGV-M as deployed by SNCF is highly configurable design at the time of manufacturing. They can be ordered either as 14.2' tall or 15.4' tall, and as 9.5' wide or 10.5' wide. They can be ordered for track gauges 4'8.5", 5' (well actually 4' 11 27/32") or 5'6" with variable gauge available.

The SNCF rendition is apparently (14.2', 10.5', 4' 8.5") variety.

As for wheelchair access, this is what is known from the document TGV M takes new step:



Basically each vestibule will have an elevator which can raise or lower a wheelchair to provide wheelchair access to the two levels. Truly universally accessible train. Pretty amazing actually. See this video...



Of course in France they will also have to provide automatically deployed bridge plates to provide access from platform to the boarding level of the train. But that is easily done. We already know how that is provided even for boarding from low level platforms as outfitted in the new Brightline Cars.

So can wheelchairs make it to the top level too? The lift only showed it between the doorway and lower level.

But that train does look amazing. Would've been sick if that was the next-gen Acela.

 

[jis]

So can wheelchairs make it to the top level too? The lift only showed it between the doorway and lower level.

But that train does look amazing. Would've been sick if that was the next-gen Acela.

Of course, part of the problem is that an off the shelf TGV M won't be usable for anything other than the NEC spine in the US. this is very different from Europe both Western and Eastern and even places like China and India where most of the trunk routes are fully electrified. It is not accidental that it is designed to work on both Russian and Indian Broad Gauge in addition to Standard Gauge. So the discussion of TGV M in a thread about Long Distance trains in the US may be quite misplaced. In what is currently offered while it will be eminently usable as Nightjet or Euronite or even Rajdhani Express in India, it has no such possible use in the US.

The main context is the proposed solution for universal access to multi-level cars, and that clearly involves strategically placed elevators in all cars.

 

[cocojacoby]

Looks like the wheelchair access is pretty limited actually.

Found this statement:
The car dedicated to people in wheelchairs has several innovations. Work is continuing with the associations to finalize the technical adjustments and the choice of signage.

Avelia Horizons also known as SNCF TGV-M as deployed by SNCF is highly configurable design at the time of manufacturing. They can be ordered either as 14.2' tall or 15.4' tall, and as 9.5' wide or 10.5' wide. They can be ordered for track gauges 4'8.5", 5' (well actually 4' 11 27/32") or 5'6" with variable gauge available.

The SNCF rendition is apparently (14.2', 10.5', 4' 8.5") variety.

As for wheelchair access, this is what is known from the document TGV M takes new step:



Basically each vestibule will have an elevator which can raise or lower a wheelchair to provide wheelchair access to the two levels. Truly universally accessible train. Pretty amazing actually. See this video...



Of course in France they will also have to provide automatically deployed bridge plates to provide access from platform to the boarding level of the train. But that is easily done. We already know how that is provided even for boarding from low level platforms as outfitted in the new Brightline Cars.

I think you are over-reading this. The circular lift in the vestibule is only necessary because the lower floor is below the platform level. This would be unnecessary in an American design since the high-level platforms are at the same level as the car floor. I do not see that there is a way to access the top floor in a wheel chair.

 

[jis]

I think you are over-reading this. The circular lift in the vestibule is only necessary because the lower floor is below the platform level. This would be unnecessary in an American design since the high-level platforms are at the same level as the car floor. I do not see that there is a way to access the top floor in a wheel chair.

It says you can get to your reserved room. It does not say only on one floor. Frankly neither you nor I know exactly what the design is beyond the bits visible in the video. So let us wait and see when the whole thing becomes visible. And no it is not available in any form usable off the shelf in the US. it is available as such for use almost anywhere else that has electrified LD main lines in the world. For now it is irrelevant for LD service in the US. I think it will be a long time before US accepts Jacobs Truck based articulated sets for LD service It took US 30 years to accept it for Corridor service.

 

[rickycourtney]

If you've never been on a double-decker TGV, they're short, especially compared to a Superliner. I believe the interior height is 6'4" -- It's tall enough to move around, but it doesn't feel very spacious. I think the closest comparison is the New Jersey Transit multilevel.
For the TGV, the platform height is between the floors, so an elevator is necessary to either lower or raise the passenger to the floor height.
Anyways -- it's a fine design for an inter-city train, but I don't think you'd want people using several elevators to transit the length of a long-distance train.

 

[John819]

US design requirements (FRA and ADA) are quite different from those in Europe. If Amtrak were to try to copy TGV, we would see these trains in perhaps 10 to 20 years even if they did get approval.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Is it a fair assumption to say that the US regulations on rail equipment are a bit dated or is that extreme for me to assume?

 

[cocojacoby]

It says you can get to your reserved room.

Read that a little differently. This is a day train and there are no sleeper rooms. It mentions a car just for ADA passengers. I am thinking access to their "reserved room" means a wheelchair space in that car. Looking at the video the most logical place for that "room" would be at one end of the cafe car on the first floor. That would offer access to food service from one end.

 

[Andrew]

My guess remains that Amtrak will choose a Siemens single level sleeper reconfigured to resemble a similar Viewliner 2 design that would be more appealing to the American taste. The loss might be some high revenue bedrooms but they could always ask for a deluxe all bedroom single level sleeper car design.

So then Amtrak might choose the Siemens Viaggio Twin for the bi-level Superliner replacenent.

 

[rickycourtney]

So then Amtrak might choose the Siemens Viaggio Twin for the bi-level Superliner replacenent.

The Viaggio Twin is very similar to the Alstom Avelia Horizon used on the TGV M. It wouldn’t be workable as a Superliner replacement.

I know many love the Superliner, and in many ways I do too, but it’s a relic from an era before we considered equitable access for all passengers.

I think we’re more likely to see a Siemens Venture carbody adapted to the needs of an overnight train. That work was already done for the Venture’s European twin.

 

[PaTrainFan]

I think the speculation on bilevel vs. single level is fun but wasted energy. Amtrak will take the easiest route and go all single level to to lower the cost of acquisition and to simplify fleet maintenance across the country.
Though the idea it could completely overhaul some Superliners for Auto Train is an intriguing one, that's doubtful as well.

 

[IndyLions]

I think the speculation on bilevel vs. single level is fun but wasted energy. Amtrak will take the easiest route and go all single level to to lower the cost of acquisition and to simplify fleet maintenance across the country.
Though the idea it could completely overhaul some Superliners for Auto Train is an intriguing one, that's doubtful as well.

Isn't the Auto Train already at/near it's maximum allowed/practical length? If so, that might make continuing use of refurbished Superliners less doubtful.

 

[Andrew]

Or maybe Amtrak will go with the Venture family for most of the long-distance trains but with Stadler bi-level coaches for The Auto Train

 

[cocojacoby]

Isn't the Auto Train already at/near it's maximum allowed/practical length? If so, that might make continuing use of refurbished Superliners less doubtful.

Maybe a good reason to eventually equip the Auto Train with Ultradomes? No other way to increase capacity with a car length limit.

 

[GDRRiley]

Is it a fair assumption to say that the US regulations on rail equipment are a bit dated or is that extreme for me to assume?

Yes it took until 2019 and a number of crash tests to show modern euro stock is as safe if not safer than the US standard of build everything to be a box which can not flex or give. Crash energy management while studied for decades took a number of metrolink crashes for it to be considered
https://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/trnews/trnews286crashtest.pdf