Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[AFriendly]

Getting back to the Slumbercoach design, it may be possible to build a similar car based on the bi-level car design now used by NJ transit. There are only a set of steps at the front and rear of the car. The lower level is below platform height while the high level is quite a bit above it. There is H space at each end. Both levels have a ceiling height of over 6 feet that might allow for 30-40 single occupancy small rooms. Those cars would fit in all stations and tunnels. I believe that in Europe there may be such a design already in use..

You're probably talking about the WLBm 172: https://heros-rail.com/images/PDFs_UK/Data_sheet_WLABm_171_and_WLBm_172.pdf. No single accommodations, but in my opinion it is still a better design than Superliner. I'm not sure if it could fit in NEC tunnels or meet all the various platform height requirements. Another issue with this design, albeit a minor one, is that all the rooms are on one side of the car and the other side is a corridor running the length of the car. Amtrak has had this before with Heritage 11-bedroom sleepers on certain routes, though.

 

[Andrew]

Predict that either Alstom or Stadler wins this bilevel contract; Siemens is likely too busy with the Airo work.

 

[pi314]

Venture cars are titled to the midwest states. Amtrak can't just take them. The seats are horrible enough as it is for trips of several hours. They would be intolerable for overnight. It is ironic that Amtrak magically produced 8 Horizon cars for Chicago Polar Express.

Most of the Santa Fe hi-levels are pushing 70 years old. They also have major ADA and bathroom issues. Amtrak will not now touch them. For once, they are right.

Talgo figured out how to do major overhauls on Metrolink's lozenge-shaped, bi-level commuter coaches. But Amtrak has made no attempt to outsource any of their overhaul work, only to whine that nobody wants to work anymore. Meanwhile, all eastern long distance consists are down one Amfleet-2 coach from 2019. The 3rd Silver Meteor sleeper is also gone along with the overnight BOS-WAS sleeper. The Covid excuse is getting old.

Is it just me or are the Venture cars a huge leap backwards? Why would they take a relatively comfortable ride and make it worse? Do the people who make these decisions ever actually have to use their product?

It's like most modern packaging these days. I often wonder if the family of one of those people who designs packaging ever tries to open something, and then in frustration turns to their family member designer and asks, "Seriously? This is what you do when you go to work?"

 

[west point]

Predict that either Alstom or Stadler wins this bilevel contract; Siemens is likely too busy with the Airo work.

Remember Siemens is building a new factory in North Carolina. Has it been disclosed what capacity that plant will have? That would depend on how many employees cab be found and how many shifts are started.

 

[Siegmund]

Is it just me or are the Venture cars a huge leap backwards? Why would they take a relatively comfortable ride and make it worse?

Bear in mind that the designers of Venture aren't taking long-distance designs of 50 years ago as their starting point.

It's a huge leap backwards compared to classic American streamliner design.
If you're a modern designer and you see your competition as airline cabins, or even European high speed train cabins, you might think Venture looked quite decent. (I have spent some time on a much less comfortable train in Europe last month, and the fact it moved fast did not compensate for the discomfort -- they both just made it feel like flying.)

 

[Paniolo Man]

Stadler is sitting on a massive factory expansion in Salt Lake City. They need to triple their square footage by 2029 by the terms of their tax benefit. I have been confused for a while now as to why they haven't started yet. Caltrain and miscellaneous FLIRT orders have the current plant at capacity. I'm not sure if they can replace MARTA's entire metro fleet while still building for Caltrain.

I wonder if they are waiting to move on expansion until they know if they get a big Amtrak contract.. Stadler is mostly in the market to build aluminum trains, and their factory is designed around their specific aluminum carbodies. Amtrak will probably want cars made of stainless steel, Stadler has made steel cars in the past for Rocky Mountaineer, so they can build regular steel railcars. An order for 300-500 steel railcars may result in a factory that is built a little different than one built otherwise.

 

[user 29398]

Feeling just like an airline cabin is not a good thing, and it modern designers consider it to be a selling point then they aren't very bright. The goal should be to beat the competition (especially where doing so is easy because they have space constraints that you don't), not to simply provide a slower and less reliable copy of it.

 

[MARC Rider]

Feeling just like an airline cabin is not a good thing, and it modern designers consider it to be a selling point then they aren't very bright. The goal should be to beat the competition (especially where doing so is easy because they have space constraints that you don't), not to simply provide a slower and less reliable copy of it.

Why the hate for airline cabins? As long as the seats are roomy and the windows are reasonably large who cares about the aesthetic? I happen to like the Amfleets, and they were designed on the model of an aircraft cabin. I especially like the subdued lighting and the fact that the overhead luggage racks require lest lifting than the luggage racks on the old pre-Amtrak "heritage" coaches. The superliner coaches have a similar aesthetic, and people like them fine.

 

[Mailliw]

Ironically early airline cabins were modeled after parlor cars and Pullman sleepers.

 

[west point]

Why the hate for airline cabins? As long as the seats are roomy and the windows are reasonably large who cares about the aesthetic? I happen to like the Amfleets, and they were designed on the model of an aircraft cabin.

As someone in the airline industry for too many years have to disagree. The Amfleet design is much similar to narrow body airplanes. Especially DC-9, MD-80s. Also B-727. B-737s. Those cabins are for mainly short time flights of 2 hours or less. Amfleets are used for much longer trips not so good. Note Horizons are much preferred on Cascades trains. The overhead space of Horizons and the Heritage cars have much passenger appeal.

I cannot imagine flying is a DC-9 type cabin for 12 to 16 hours. Translate that to riding Amfleets 16 - 30 hours although being able to walk around mitigates that problem somewhat.

 

[GDRRiley]

Stadler is sitting on a massive factory expansion in Salt Lake City. They need to triple their square footage by 2029 by the terms of their tax benefit. I have been confused for a while now as to why they haven't started yet. Caltrain and miscellaneous FLIRT orders have the current plant at capacity. I'm not sure if they can replace MARTA's entire metro fleet while still building for Caltrain.

It might also be because they want LA metros order which they are fighting for right now
California is also primed to order far more if we like our hydrogen flirts or maybe we will finally use our brain and get battery+OCS ones and more KISS

I wonder if they are waiting to move on expansion until they know if they get a big Amtrak contract.. Stadler is mostly in the market to build aluminum trains, and their factory is designed around their specific aluminum carbodies. Amtrak will probably want cars made of stainless steel, Stadler has made steel cars in the past for Rocky Mountaineer, so they can build regular steel railcars. An order for 300-500 steel railcars may result in a factory that is built a little different than one built otherwise.

Amtrak so far hasn't been specific but stainless steel likely helps if they insist on cars that are buff strength

 

[Willbridge]

As someone in the airline industry for too many years have to disagree. The Amfleet design is much similar to narrow body airplanes. Especially DC-9, MD-80s. Also B-727. B-737s. Those cabins are for mainly short time flights of 2 hours or less. Amfleets are used for much longer trips not so good. Note Horizons are much preferred on Cascades trains. The overhead space of Horizons and the Heritage cars have much passenger appeal.

I cannot imagine flying is a DC-9 type cabin for 12 to 16 hours. Translate that to riding Amfleets 16 - 30 hours although being able to walk around mitigates that problem somewhat.

The original Pioneer was right in the range described above. Of course, customers were so eager for it that they might have accepted boxcars, but the walk to and from the Amdinette and being able to sit at a table for a meal did as said "mitigate that problem somewhat."

In discussing lighting, the Amfleet cars usually drew compliments. Recently, Denver's weekly Westword ran an article about a couple of women who have had great success in designing restaurant and bar interiors. In a lengthy interview Melissa Friday mentioned that "the quality of light is really important -- like temperature and dimability and making moods, especially in big restaurants to still feel intimate. And that could be bringing the ceiling down or creating cozy spaces, or doing that with lighting."

While some of that lighting effect was achieved in the Amfleet cars, limited baggage space was a problem before checked baggage was introduced. At Christmas time in 1977, a Union Pacific conductor arriving in Portland on Train 25 said "it looks like a g_____n freight train in there."

1978 - good and bad departs Portland.

 

[MARC Rider]

As someone in the airline industry for too many years have to disagree. The Amfleet design is much similar to narrow body airplanes. Especially DC-9, MD-80s. Also B-727. B-737s. Those cabins are for mainly short time flights of 2 hours or less. Amfleets are used for much longer trips not so good. Note Horizons are much preferred on Cascades trains. The overhead space of Horizons and the Heritage cars have much passenger appeal.

I cannot imagine flying is a DC-9 type cabin for 12 to 16 hours. Translate that to riding Amfleets 16 - 30 hours although being able to walk around mitigates that problem somewhat.

I've ridden Amfleet 2 coaches for overnight trips, and they were fine. The main difference between that and an airliner is the size of the seats. The Amfleet 2 seats are plenty roomy, whereas airliners have narrow seats, no legroom, and 3-across seating, which makes those in the window seat have to climb over 2 people in narrow quarters every time they need to getmup and use the restroom. I'll bet flying overnight in first class would be much more comfortable. I will grant that the Amfleet design wouldn't work as well for sleeping cars, as there wouldn't be as much clearance for the upper bunks, otherwise, I don't see any problems.

 

[pi314]

Bear in mind that the designers of Venture aren't taking long-distance designs of 50 years ago as their starting point.

It's a huge leap backwards compared to classic American streamliner design.
If you're a modern designer and you see your competition as airline cabins, or even European high speed train cabins, you might think Venture looked quite decent. (I have spent some time on a much less comfortable train in Europe last month, and the fact it moved fast did not compensate for the discomfort -- they both just made it feel like flying.)

I don't understand why anyone in charge of Amtrak coach designs would consider an airline cabin as their competition. That would completely negate the most valuable inherent advantages of a train coach, namely the lack of weight restrictions and the luxury of space. Need more room? Add another car at a low incremental expense. Make it a plush luxury seat with generous legroom because you're not trying to lift it off the ground.

 

[jis]

I don't understand why anyone in charge of Amtrak coach designs would consider an airline cabin as their competition. That would completely negate the most valuable inherent advantages of a train coach, namely the lack of weight restrictions and the luxury of space. Need more room? Add another car at a low incremental expense. Make it a plush luxury seat with generous legroom because you're not trying to lift it off the ground.

There is not a lack of weight restriction. There is just a different weight restriction.

Lest we forget, it is the airlines that learned about Coach seating from the railroads, not vice versa. In any case railroad Coach seating is considerably different from airline Coach seating both in pitch and generally in comfort. Also seating quality varies from quite tight and less comfortable in short distance frequent stop trains to quite comfortable - comparable to airline First Class or better in long distance service.

Cars do not come for free. They cost money have to be maintained and depreciate. You cannot just a have a random collection of cars lying around to add on as you wish like on your HO set.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Regarding better airline seating, two recent articles, on seating from Recaro and Safran Seats GB. Both have ops in the US. But if they're not already in train seating I imagine it would take a squadron of lawyers to enter the market. Nevertheless, it's interesting innovation.

• JAL’s new flagship A350-1000 astounds with aesthetics and space A Japanese take on privacy and aesthetics. It shows what you can do.
• Recaro "the best" over aircraft seat lifecycle: Udvar-Hazy Several metrics mentioned, but not comfort.

 

[Steve4031]

The business class seats would work if the ones along the windows were properly aligned to the windows. I don't know if it is possible to do 2 on one side and one on the other with the business class seats shown on Japan Airlines. Maybe these could be used as a higher-density first class as long as they were showers available.

IMHO the business class seats that I have used, United's Polaris, and Swiss Air's have been pretty nice and are more comfortable than the seats in a current roomette.

 

[jis]

The business class seats would work if the ones along the windows were properly aligned to the windows. I don't know if it is possible to do 2 on one side and one on the other with the business class seats shown on Japan Airlines. Maybe these could be used as a higher-density first class as long as they were showers available.

IMHO the business class seats that I have used, United's Polaris, and Swiss Air's have been pretty nice and are more comfortable than the seats in a current roomette.

The JAL ones look pretty much the same as Delta One pods. If so they cannot be done 1x2 while aligning with windows AFAICT. Only 1x1 is possible in rail cars if they must be aligned with standard spaced windows. If not then as long as fitting a few fewer rows is acceptable then 1x2 may be feasible, and if narrower seats are acceptable then even 2x2 is possible. This has been discussed and beaten to death in an earlier thread a while back.

In this context, I would draw your attention to this thread:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/future-amtrak-sleeper-and-ada-ideas.83324/page-11

 

[John Bredin]

This whole airplane thing is a bit of a tangent.

*The Ventures weren't bought by Amtrak, which does seem to understand the difference between corridor and long-distance coach seating (Amfleet I vs. Amfleet 2, for instance). They were bought by the DOTs of California and Illinois, which probably bought them as close to off-the-shelf from Siemens as they could get.

*Siemens probably doesn't design its trainsets with airliners as a model, either of what to do or what not to do. It does design trainsets primarily for a market where the ability to recline isn't considered the standard of comfort.

 

[jis]

This whole airplane thing is a bit of a tangent.

*The Ventures weren't bought by Amtrak, which does seem to understand the difference between corridor and long-distance coach seating (Amfleet I vs. Amfleet 2, for instance). They were bought by the DOTs of California and Illinois, which probably bought them as close to off-the-shelf from Siemens as they could get.

*Siemens probably doesn't design its trainsets with airliners as a model, either of what to do or what not to do. It does design trainsets primarily for a market where the ability to recline isn't considered the standard of comfort.

Siemens also probably does not care that much about a specific seat choice. Normally the customer specifies what seats they want. That has been the case with all Amtrak acquisitions, and is no different when one of the state bodies does the acquisition.

 

[rs9]

Seats are something tangible we can debate, but I don't think that should be a limiting factor to comfort. Having ridden in the Illinois Venture cars, I found the seats to be generally fine - not great, not terrible - but far more important, the smooth and quiet ride of the cars is a huge upgrade and would be a critical change for overnight travel. Likewise, the sliding plexiglass doors that open and close virtually silently, as opposed to metal doors slamming shut.

I am 100% in support of a lie-flat product - I'm not spending the absurd money on a roomette anytime soon. That said, Amtrak needs some significant cultural changes to support a lie-flat or overnight business class product. I do not see any will from current on-board personnel to enforce (theoretical) quiet hours, require the use of headphones for movies/music, cut off endless phone conversations, etc. I've literally watched Amtrak personnel walk right past these situations in coach and do nothing; I know if I'm traveling on an airplane, I can usually expect flight attendants to address these situations.

As someone who used the Lake Shore Limited business class product, Amtrak struggled to correctly turn the half-cafe, half-business cars so that the business section was not subject to the non-stop foot traffic to the cafe. I would be hard-pressed to say that anyone at Amtrak's management level really cared about creating an actual business class "product."

 

[Anderson]

This whole airplane thing is a bit of a tangent.

*The Ventures weren't bought by Amtrak, which does seem to understand the difference between corridor and long-distance coach seating (Amfleet I vs. Amfleet 2, for instance). They were bought by the DOTs of California and Illinois, which probably bought them as close to off-the-shelf from Siemens as they could get.

*Siemens probably doesn't design its trainsets with airliners as a model, either of what to do or what not to do. It does design trainsets primarily for a market where the ability to recline isn't considered the standard of comfort.

It's really a mix of recline and padding, but the recline stands out for some reason. Edit: Probably because I think it's less than I get in F on an airliner.

 

[dlagrua]

Anyone hear any updates on the RFP for long distance cars that was supposed to be issued by the end of 2023?

 

[jis]

Anyone hear any updates on the RFP for long distance cars that was supposed to be issued by the end of 2023?

The RFP was issued last Friday. See:

Amtrak LD RFP Issued on Dec 15, 2023

 

[Mailliw]

In this context I am not quite sure what the phrase "pod type accommodation" means. Could one of you using the phrase please clarify what is it that you are referring to? Thanks.

I'm imaging something like the interior layout of this Pakistani bus, only with a 1:1 configuration instead of 2:1.