Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[PVD]

I don't see Amtrak doing it, but NY MTA has done it with buses where the proposals were close, and in order to shorten the time line orders were split between NOVABUS and New Flyer, but those are individual units not sets where so much more interoperability stuff applies. There have been some subway car orders where different mfrs built follow on/options instead of the original prime, but again, that is not likely the way this acquisition is laid out.

 

[rs9]

I think it's the latter. Long-distance seats meant for overnight sleeping will take up more space than corridor seating. That being said they might still be marketed as an upgrade just because of the 2:1 configuration even if they're the same size.

The Siemens Venture business class cars are 2x1 seating with wider seats while also fully accessible with 32" aisles, IIRC. If you think of a current Amfleet II or Superliner car, if you just removed a row of seats, the aisles would become gigantic, way more than the 32" needed.

While I'm not an expert, there are pretty significant changes in seat technology that could allow for more of a life-flat feel without compromising space - think of how modern airline seats have foot room below, and the seat pad itself slides forward as part of the recline.

It's a little baffling the 2x1 are labeled as coach seats as opposed to business class - though perhaps for schematic purposes, there's just a hard line between coach and sleeper. It would be a huge lost opportunity to not even try for anything other than standard coach.

 

[jis]

I still think people are spending we too much brain power on analyzing and nitpicking some conceptual drawings for getting vaariance permission for accessibility implementation. I am afraid we will not know exactly what seats will be used in what layout until the vendor selection happens based on an agreement between Amtrak and the selected vendor.

 

[cocojacoby]

Just a couple more thoughts:

1 - Doesn't it look like there is enough space for a wheelchair to pass through the existing Lounge cars? I'd like to see the measurements here. Different seating that doesn't swivel could be used. Wheelchairs can pass through the Brightline cars that have four abreast seating. I know some are suggesting that the diagrams seem to indicate 2-1 seating in some areas. What about the dinner? Would that have to be 2-1 also? I'm just not sure the idea of having all seating in the lounges on one side would go over very well. They need to work on this.




2 - And just wondering if anyone knows why it is necessary to go to fixed consists whenever the idea of wider passageways between cars is mentioned. It certainly looks like there is plenty of room to widen the diaphragms and just make the openings bigger. Why isn't that possible?

 

[user 14106]

If you don’t do trainsets then I believe each individual coach and sleeper car has to individually be handicapped accessible. You’d basically end up with vertical access points in every single accessible car. This reduces the number of lifts that the train needs to have and makes the cafe, diner, and lounge spaces fully accessible as well. You ultimately in the end sacrifice less revenue space for accommodation purposes while making more of the train amenities accessible.

 

[jis]

If you don’t do trainsets then I believe each individual coach and sleeper car has to individually be handicapped accessible. If your accessible accommodations were on the upper lever this would mean vertical access points in every single car. This reduces the number of lifts that the train needs to have and makes the cafe, diner, and lounge spaces accessible as well.

Exactly. These diagrams are to request approval for an alternative way of providing access to all common facilities to accessibility impaired people. In order to guarantee such all cars involved must be present in the consist and the best way to guarantee that is to provide them semi-permanently coupled. The semi-permanently coupled has little to do with 32" walkways, though they do provide for more stable and stronger walkways than those for individual cars coupled together. It is just easier engineering wise to tie together the walkway componets of the two cars together more solidly if they are permanently coupled. Just an engineering reality. The architecture allows regularly coupled additional cars using standard couplers and standard gangways.

 

[joelkfla]

Here is a pdf of the hearing slides. Should be a bit clearer than the screen captures. Click the arrow in the top right corner for a larger view.

 

[Amtrak25]

If long distance trains are to be entirely fixed train sets, how will they handle the current situations of split/merge consists of the Eagle/Sunset, Empire Builder, and Lake Shore LtTd, cut/add coaches, holiday surges, random cars wrecked ?

I'd rather see a core ADAcoach-lounge-diner-ADAsleeper with wider gangways, and the rest individual coaches, lounges, sleepers. The ADA people would have access to all the train's amenities within the core 4 cars. Nobody needs to access to the entire consist.

 

[joelkfla]

The Siemens Venture business class cars are 2x1 seating with wider seats while also fully accessible with 32" aisles, IIRC. If you think of a current Amfleet II or Superliner car, if you just removed a row of seats, the aisles would become gigantic, way more than the 32" needed.

While I'm not an expert, there are pretty significant changes in seat technology that could allow for more of a life-flat feel without compromising space - think of how modern airline seats have foot room below, and the seat pad itself slides forward as part of the recline.

It's a little baffling the 2x1 are labeled as coach seats as opposed to business class - though perhaps for schematic purposes, there's just a hard line between coach and sleeper. It would be a huge lost opportunity to not even try for anything other than standard coach.

I find the latest versions of airline seats on Southwest to be very uncomfortable.

 

[joelkfla]

I still think people are spending we too much brain power on analyzing and nitpicking some conceptual drawings for getting vaariance permission for accessibility implementation. I am afraid we will not know exactly what seats will be used in what layout until the vendor selection happens based on an agreement between Amtrak and the selected vendor.

I think it is more to show naysayers how it is possible, rather than to show an actual design variant.

 

[Mailliw]

Agreed, but it's nice to have some fodder for our imaginations.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I'm finding the focus on the 60" (5 foot) turning circle interesting - there are alternative turning solutions in the ADA (now, admittedly, I don't deal with it in an transportation milieu or situation, so I have no idea what those specifics are).

I like the concept and hope it works.

 

[jis]

If long distance trains are to be entirely fixed train sets, how will they handle the current situations of split/merge consists of the Eagle/Sunset, Empire Builder, and Lake Shore LtTd, cut/add coaches, holiday surges, random cars wrecked ?

I'd rather see a core ADAcoach-lounge-diner-ADAsleeper with wider gangways, and the rest individual coaches, lounges, sleepers. The ADA people would have access to all the train's amenities within the core 4 cars. Nobody needs to access to the entire consist.

That is exactly what they are proposing. Only the core accessible part will be semi-permanently coupled. There can be additional cars. A nice hybrid solution if you ask me.

 

[sporksradiant]

Just a couple more thoughts:

1 - Doesn't it look like there is enough space for a wheelchair to pass through the existing Lounge cars? I'd like to see the measurements here. Different seating that doesn't swivel could be used. Wheelchairs can pass through the Brightline cars that have four abreast seating. I know some are suggesting that the diagrams seem to indicate 2-1 seating in some areas. What about the dinner? Would that have to be 2-1 also? I'm just not sure the idea of having all seating in the lounges on one side would go over very well. They need to work on this.

Speaking as a part time wheelchair user - there is absolutely not enough room in the image shown for anything beyond a narrow manual chair. Power chairs are typically wider and would have issues at the narrow points, especially when you allow for less than perfect use on a moving train.

 

[JermyZP]

Speaking as a part time wheelchair user - there is absolutely not enough room in the image shown for anything beyond a narrow manual chair. Power chairs are typically wider and would have issues at the narrow points, especially when you allow for less than perfect use on a moving train.

Maybe they could have one row of seats paired together and the other side have seats facing the windows. They could even have tables for the one row of paired seats available for dining.

 

[Railpaxscott]

I see no indication of larger windows and ceiling windows in "lounge cars." There needs to be some version of a Sightseer Lounge especially on the western equipment (bi-level). Passengers on trains for 50 hours plus want "observation," "sightseer," or "dome" cars to enjoy the "see" level scenery .

 

[AmtrakBlue]

That is exactly what they are proposing. Only the core accessible part will be semi-permanently coupled. There can be additional cars. A nice hybrid solution if you ask me.

Though what if someone getting on in Portland needs accessibility?

 

[John Bredin]

Though what if someone getting on in Portland needs accessibility?

I think there would have to be two accessible cores on splitting trains like the Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited, or this wouldn't be equivalent to the ADA requirement of one accessible room per sleeper car once the combined train has split into two trains.

 

[John Bredin]

I see no indication of larger windows and ceiling windows in "lounge cars." There needs to be some version of a Sightseer Lounge especially on the western equipment (bi-level). Passengers on trains for 50 hours plus want "observation," "sightseer," or "dome" cars to enjoy the "see" level scenery .

As has been pointed out, these drawings are about accessible rooms and spaces and how they'd have access to common facilities like cafes, diners, and lounges. Details like windows (or the layout of the galley, or whether non-accessible rooms will have toilets, or whether there'll be a coffee machine in each sleeper car) aren't in these drawings because that's not their purpose.

 

[jis]

I think there would have to be two accessible cores on splitting trains like the Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited, or this wouldn't be equivalent to the ADA requirement of one accessible room per sleeper car once the combined train has split into two trains.

They may have to think of dreaming up a "Minicore" of fewer cars. Then they can arrange the consists of the two trains so that the two can be coupled together Minicore to Core, or something innovative like that. It is a TBD issue I think.

 

[Steve4031]

IMHO combining two core trainsets for the Empire Builder and the Lakeshore Limited would increase capacity of both trains as well as shorten the dwell times in Portland and Albany where these trains split up. I suspect separating to complete trainsets would be much quicker than the current process.

Another train that could benefit from this process is the Capitol Limited. It could be possible to run two core trainsets between Chicago and Pittsburg and then split the train in to a Washington, DC, and New Yor City sections.

 

[cocojacoby]

IMHO combining two core trainsets for the Empire Builder and the Lakeshore Limited would increase capacity of both trains as well as shorten the dwell times in Portland and Albany where these trains split up. I suspect separating to complete trainsets would be much quicker than the current process.

Another train that could benefit from this process is the Capitol Limited. It could be possible to run two core trainsets between Chicago and Pittsburg and then split the train in to a Washington, DC, and New Yor City sections.

Maybe time for two separate LSL trains? Keep one on the present route (CHI-BOS) and run the second (NYC - CHI) through Detroit (maybe via Canada).

 

[ascii42]

They may have to think of dreaming up a "Minicore" of fewer cars. Then they can arrange the consists of the two trains so that the two can be coupled together Minicore to Core, or something innovative like that. It is a TBD issue I think.

If they only use accessible coaches on those trains it seems feasible. For example:
Train 1: Other sleepers - Accessible sleeper - accessible cafe - accessible coach
Train 2: Accessible coach - accessible diner - accessible sleeper - other sleepers
would combine at the coaches and still maintain an accessible core.

Maybe time for two separate LSL trains? Keep one on the present route (CHI-BOS) and run the second (NYC - CHI) through Detroit (maybe via Canada).

Or this, if the above doesn't work in practice.

 

[cocojacoby]

Speaking as a part time wheelchair user - there is absolutely not enough room in the image shown for anything beyond a narrow manual chair. Power chairs are typically wider and would have issues at the narrow points, especially when you allow for less than perfect use on a moving train.

You don't think that is 32"? You might be right of course. Here's what Brightline's accessible aisle looks like:

 

[Amtrak25]

IMHO combining two core trainsets for the Empire Builder and the Lakeshore Limited would increase capacity of both trains as well as shorten the dwell times in Portland and Albany where these trains split up. I suspect separating to complete trainsets would be much quicker than the current process.

Another train that could benefit from this process is the Capitol Limited. It could be possible to run two core trainsets between Chicago and Pittsburg and then split the train in to a Washington, DC, and New Yor City sections.

Can you see them running 4 food service cars on the combined portion of those trains ? I can't. This management begrudges having 2 of them as it is.