keelhauled
OBS Chief
Six years later and we are still confused by "experiential" vs. "experimental."
Bi-level Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H2 2024
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jis
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MODERATOR'S NOTE: About a dozen and a half posts about future equipment possibilities beyond what is in this RFP have been moved out of this thread and into the Amtrak futures thread:
https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ment-and-ada-ideas.83324/page-15#post-1048878
Please post discussion of future equipment ideas beyond what is in the current RFP on the thread on Amtrak futures and leave this RFP thread for discussing only matters pertaining to the progress of the RFP process.
Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.
https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ment-and-ada-ideas.83324/page-15#post-1048878
Please post discussion of future equipment ideas beyond what is in the current RFP on the thread on Amtrak futures and leave this RFP thread for discussing only matters pertaining to the progress of the RFP process.
Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.
Eternityroad
Train Attendant
I do not fly so I was wondering what is airline type seating and how does it differ from the train? Dont tell me they are making seats closer together so we be stuffed in there like sardines for a cross-country trip!
That's basically what they're doing. On planes you get much less legroom and the seat is slimmer. I did find the legroom on a United 757 to be fine for a three hour flight though.
Airlines typically have 3 x 3 seating in economy class on narrow body jets. Seat pitch is 30 to 32 inches and the seats are 18 to 20 inches wide. Wide body aircraft have the same cramped seats in a 3x3x3 or even more in the center configuration.
Amfleet 1 coaches have 2x2 seating with a 39 inch seat pitch and are 20 inches wide. They have no window shades or curtains.
Amfleet 2 and superliner long distance coach seats have 2x2 seating with 48 to 50 inch seat pitch and are 20 inchcurtains. There are curtains on the windows.
Most Amfleet 1 business class cars have 2x2 seating with 48 inch seat pitch and are 20 inches wide. There are some business class Amfleet 1s with club seating that is 2x1 with a 48 or 50 inch seat pitch. I think the seats are a bit wider than the others, but not by much.
The California cars used on the Capitol Corridor seem to have more cramped seating than other Amtrak cars I've ridden. I don't have any knowledge of the seat pitch and width of the new Venture and Airo cars, or of the Acela.
The cited documents seems to suggest that Amtrak is speccing long distance coach seats at 48 inches and also an economy coach with less seat pitch that should at least be the same as an Amfleet 1 coach. The ecomy coach should be fine for people traveling shorter distances. I've done quite a few 7 hour trips to Boston and several 10 to 12 hour trips on the Vermonter in an Amfleet 1 corridor coach, and it was fine.
Less legroom, yes, but the seats are still very comfortable.
Eternityroad
Train Attendant
Thanks for your reply. I am also not happy that the sightseer (dome) car is being taken away from coach passengers. Yes there will surround-type windows but where does one go for a break from ones coach seat or if there is a screaming child in your car? And yes I understand they can upsell rooms with the promise of a private coach in which to socialize. Still....not fair, IMHO. I am, of course, referring to the long-distance west coast routes. Maybe they should just let them be as they are. Lots of coach passengers want to see Glenwood Canyon from the dome-car as well.
nti1094
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Single level equipment cannot be used in most of the country. A big part of the reason is that high floors are not going to have matching high platforms. This is especially true along STRACNET lines, and the even harder regulatory requirements of the CA PUC in that state. Short of installing gauntlet tracks at every single station across the system, which is never going to happen.
thefirewarde
Service Attendant
Single level cars can operate from low platforms, it's just not as nice. Most of the platforms served by the new Midwest pool Venture cars are low level platforms, and a lot of the stations in the East with LD service are low level also. NC will be an anomaly in the Southeast for having high level platforms in Raleigh and Charlotte, the two busiest stops on the Piedmont.
Single level equipment is needed for anything that's running out of New York - the Silvers, Crescent, Lake Shore Limited, Cardinal, and any new overnight service that may be thought up, maybe a revival of the Montrealer, an overnight train to Toronto, a new Night Owl, etc.
jis
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Beside the claim made in the post that you quoted above "Single level equipment cannot be used in most of the country" is patently and provably false. They are used all over the place irrespective of platform height. Now that Electric Wheelchair Lifts deployable from the cars are being brought into service progressively, the low platform high floor car incompatibility will become even less of an issue.
jis
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The particular RFP being discussed is for the replacement of the Superliner (bi-level) fleet. There will be other RFPs to deal with the single level LD fleet (Amfleet II, Viewliner I etc.)
Earlier today, senator Schumer announced that Siemens will be building a (3rd US) rail factory in Upstate NY, which is actually near the current CAF rail facility.
I wonder if this will make it more likely for Amtrak to select Siemens for their future bilevel order?
I wonder if this will make it more likely for Amtrak to select Siemens for their future bilevel order?
I would say yes. No fan of CAF here. Stadler is an option. I yhing they have a plant in Utah.
jis
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This plant is initially for manufacturing the HSR sets for Brightline West, an order that has already been placed.
https://apnews.com/article/high-spe...manufacturer-7ccbe151bfa548b3694ee632a6c33f3c
I would wait to see what happens to the Bilevel Order which is yet to be placed, and the date for submissions of proposals in response to the RFP has now been pushed back to later this year.
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thefirewarde
Service Attendant
If anything the additional work makes Siemens less likely to win - they already have a massive market share in US and Canadian heavy rail, and while they're not having Avelia level problems they definitely aren't performing flawlessly - there's surely enough on their plate. Plus, Amtrak likely doesn't want a single vendor for their entire locomotive and coach fleet (minus single level LD equipment).
I don't know if that's enough to counterbalance a very strong Siemens bid, but adding the American Pioneer 220 into the mix doesn't mitigate any of the concerns Amtrak might have with Siemens.
I don't know if that's enough to counterbalance a very strong Siemens bid, but adding the American Pioneer 220 into the mix doesn't mitigate any of the concerns Amtrak might have with Siemens.
If this is the case, than of course Amtrak will look at Alstom and Stadler more so than they did before.
Why? There's a lot to be said for homogeneity and having a single point of contact for maintenance issues.
A common fleet also means there's zero redundancy if some issue affects a common part.
If I recall correctly, Brightline included a service contract in their venture coach order. If I understand correctly, then this is why Brightline has not had the same problems with venture cars as Amtrak has had in Chicago.
In my humble opinion, I believe that Amtrak needs to include a servicing contract regardless of the vendor in all future equipment purchases.
In my humble opinion, I believe that Amtrak needs to include a servicing contract regardless of the vendor in all future equipment purchases.
I don’t know if I would agree totally. When all new equipment is introduced, and especially while under manufacturers warranty, then yes.
But once the warranty expires, and Amtrak forces are familiar with the equipment, I believe it would be less costly to do maintenance in house…
cirdan
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I don’t know if I would agree totally. When all new equipment is introduced, and especially while under manufacturers warranty, then yes.
But once the warranty expires, and Amtrak forces are familiar with the equipment, I believe it would be less costly to do maintenance in house…
I think costs are not the only factor. Every generation of equipment is becoming more advanced and sophisticated with more hi-tech. Finding people with the skills to do maintenance becomes more and more of an issue. It's not just Amtrak, but all across multiple industries and utilities, there is a tendency to de-skill and rely on the manufacturers (or specialist contractors) to maintain vital equipment.
Also, if an external contractor fails to meet contractually agreed levels of reliability or availability, penalty payments are incurred. This gives the customer some level of protection. If your in-house maintenance department fails to deliver, there is not much you can do.
