Long Station Dwell Times

[Palmland]

I saw an over four hour late No. 91 in Deland, FL today. I wonder if part of the cause for the delay was long station stops.

It was a big train, by Amtrak standards, with 12 cars: 6 coaches, cafe, diner, 3 sleepers (two of them VII) and baggage. It did have to use the wheelchair lift. But it took about 10 minutes in the station. If that scenario occurs at other stops it certainly would add up over its long route.

I thought it was curious that the baggage was unloaded during its first stop. Then it pulled forward to the station to load maybe 6 bags- no passengers. I think OT performance could be improved if station stops were handled more efficiently perhaps by having passengers ready to board when the trains arrives and opening multiple doors. No one seemed to be in a hurry.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I was on 91 and 92 a few weeks ago and was significantly delayed in both directions, with many of the delays being attributed to the exceptionally long trains. The SS didn't usually exceed 8 cars prior to the pandemic, but has been running with 13 during the reduced schedule. There were also passengers who had to walk through multiple cars to exit the train, such as at Tampa, where the first two cars didn't fit on the platform.

 

[Cal]

This is a less extreme example, but the Southwest Chief at Fullerton (among others) will frequently depart a few minutes late due to a long dwell time. On my trip, the Chief was at Fullerton for nearly twice the schedule amount of time, which is 5 minutes. This, and other longer dwell times resulted in us departing 20 minutes late from the 4th stop of the trip, San Bernadino. It's not much, but still a delay due to long dwell times.

We did make the time up due that night due to padding,

 

[me_little_me]

That's typical of Amtrak. They are very inefficient at stations.

• They don't have passengers ready at the right locations. Worst is at smaller stations with no agents and no signs telling people where to board for sleepers/coach.
• They do things that are most convenient for themselves rather than for customers. I've seen them put the baggage car on the hard surface and board/deboard passengers on gravel and other uneven places.
• They will stand around and watch elderly passengers try to board with their luggage rather than give them a hand even though they cause long lines.
• Their having too few stations with luggage handling at both ends means that passengers must carry everything with them. Just think if the airlines had no baggage service and allowed you to load all your bags. Would take all day.
• Their stations at many stops
• Their handling of wheelchair passengers is slow and inefficient because they won't invest in proper equipment.

It always seems that when they arrive late, it takes longer than usual to get people off and on so they lose even more time. Except at time-delay stops (those that have longer dwell so Amtrak can look like they are not as late as they really are), it seems the lateness makes them forget what to do.

 

[joelkfla]

There were also passengers who had to walk through multiple cars to exit the train, such as at Tampa, where the first two cars didn't fit on the platform.

Wonder what they would do if there was a wheelchair on one of those cars that wanted to deboard? I'm not sure they have it together enough to make sure that doesn't happen. (I'm traveling to Tampa with a mobility scooter next week.)

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Wonder what they would do if there was a wheelchair on one of those cars that wanted to deboard? I'm not sure they have it together enough to make sure that doesn't happen. (I'm traveling to Tampa with a mobility scooter next week.)

I would hope there would be enough planning to make sure not to assign someone with a wheelchair to one of the front two cars if their destination is Tampa. The employees were aware before arriving which cars would be on the platform so they should be able to do that much. If somehow there was someone in a wheelchair needing to get out from one of the front cars I'm not sure what they would do since it's a stub end station so they can't back up any farther. It's also likely the consist will be significantly shortened with the return to normal schedules this week so that it will no longer be an issue.

 

[Alice]

Wonder what they would do if there was a wheelchair on one of those cars that wanted to deboard? I'm not sure they have it together enough to make sure that doesn't happen. (I'm traveling to Tampa with a mobility scooter next week.)

As brianpmcdonnell17 said, you'd hope there would be enough planning. But don't rely on it. I've been on two Amtrak trains where there were issues with my wheelchair.

1. During one of the east coast gatherings, they were going to put me in the "wrong" car in a situation such as yours, and AlanB corrected them before it became an issue.

2. On the CS on the way to Portland or Seattle gathering (don't remember which), everyone was getting bused for the last leg. Wheelchairs are last off so last in line to get a bus. Turns out none of the buses had lifts. Recall I was in the ADA sleeper and they knew I used a wheelchair. The conductor at the front of the line was apologetic but "I just didn't think about it." They called an accessible taxi who took around two hours to arrive. There were other issues with that taxi but they were not Amtrak's fault.

Bottom line, you need to know more than onboard staff and remind them as needed. And if anything goes wrong as it often does with any kind of travel, don't figure Amtrak has your back like I did, speak up early.

 

[bratkinson]

In my opinion, there are 4 significant problems that result in extended station dwell times.

#1 is 'street car-ing'. I want to scream every time I ride the Lakeshore Ltd when I see the conductor scanning every boarding passenger's tickets on the ground! It happens on other trains, too, but on the LSL, it's EVERY STOP. I fully understand their need to tell the passenger which car to find a seat as the 'shorts' are usually limited to 1 car and the longer-distance passengers grouped by destination, especially the endpoint cities. Instead, the conductor should simply ASK where they are going as passengers too often don't have their cell phone ticket displayed, or printed ticket in their hand, etc, when they reach the conductor.

#2 is short platforms. Consider the Lakeshore Ltd. The smaller city intermediate stations frequently have a platform long enough for 4 or 5 cars. If I recall correctly, the Waterloo IN platform is only 2-3 cars long. The pre-Covid LSL usually ran with 11 or 12 not counting the now-gone 448/449 baggage car to/from BOS. And to make things more complicated, passengers going to points in MA must be in the 'front' of train #448/48. When there's a need to board a sleeper passenger for BOS, either they spot the sleeper at the front of the platform or the boarding sleeper passenger(s) have to traipse through coach and the cafe/BC car to get to their sleeper. Fortunately, all the coaches are together...2 from BOS and 2-4 from NYP, followed by the diner/aka sleeper lounge, 2 sleepers and the baggage car. Worst case scenario, a sleeper passenger for BOS and sleeper passengers for NYP. The only workable solution is to do a 'triple stop' at the station. I've witnessed numerous times. That's 15-20 minutes for what the timetable shows as a departure time only, ie, 2-5 minute stop. Double stops are far more common.

Fortunately, at least on the LSL, all stations that handle baggage have 10-12 car platforms so that everyone can deboard/board simultaneously and baggage can be worked. And for passengers going to/from stations without baggage handling, simply lugging their oversized suitcases up and down the steps takes 30-60 seconds per passenger to get on or off the train! I've seen 'monster' rolling suitcases that likely weigh 70 pounds or more and some petite woman trying to maneuver them down the aisle. Fortunately, the (assistant) conductor is alert to take the suitcase off or on the train for them.

#3 is the lack of conductors to be able to open and staff every door. I never counted them, but the combined LSL has, I think, 1 assistant conductor and 1 conductor. That means that at most, only 2 doors can be open at a stop, plus any sleeping car doors for passengers on/off there. The exact number is determined by contract. So, there is no choice but to single file passengers on or off.

#4 is really a non-issue if the train is running late. But if it arrives early enough to complete all the station work prior to the scheduled departure time, there is no choice but to 'wait time' until the clock says it's time to go. Don't forget padding in the schedule so if the train is running 'on time', it's not unusual to be done at a station early due to padding. I don't recall waiting time on the LSL except on #49/449 when everything gets wrapped up in CLE or TOL and we have to 'wait time' to leave. On other LD trains, I've noticed it maybe several times per year. Having a scanner tuned in keeps me abreast of what's happening.

 

[Cal]

#3 is the lack of conductors to be able to open and staff every door. I never counted them, but the combined LSL has, I think, 1 assistant conductor and 1 conductor. That means that at most, only 2 doors can be open at a stop, plus any sleeping car doors for passengers on/off there. The exact number is determined by contract. So, there is no choice but to single file passengers on or off.

Are train attendants not allowed to open the doors on eastern LD trains? I know they can out here in the west...

 

[Bob Dylan]

Are train attendants not allowed to open the doors on eastern LD trains? I know they can out here in the west...

Conductors open the doors on the Regionals since there are no attendants on those Trains.

The LD Trains and Acelas have attendants that Open the doors @ Stops.

 

[jis]

Conductors open the doors on the Regionals since there are no attendants on those Trains.

The LD Trains and Acelas have attendants that Open the doors @ Stops.

Acelas have attendants in Business Class?

 

[Trogdor]

I thought the conductors opened the doors on the Acela by pressing the button.

 

[jis]

I thought the conductors opened the doors on the Acela by pressing the button.

Yes. Except the First Class door which may be operated separately by the attendant.

 

[cirdan]

Sometimes longer dwell time may also be required for operational reasons. For example fueling or restocking.

Also, if there is serious freight congestion, it may be preferable to have a train sit at the station and wait there for thigs to get sorted, rather than having the train start, run a couple of miles down the line, and then stop there forever.

 

[OBS]

Acelas have attendants in Business Class?

No

 

[OBS]

Yes. Except the First Class door which may be operated separately by the attendant.

On the Acela, F/C attendant can open door separately only in an emergency. If two people put keys in the Acela door panel at the same time, it screws up the trainlined doors and none will open. Then each door must be reset individually by key in each control panel. The doors on the Acela's are extremely finicky!

 

[jis]

On the Acela, F/C attendant can open door separately only in an emergency. If two people put keys in the Acela door panel at the same time, it screws up the trainlined doors and none will open. Then each door must be reset individually by key in each control panel. The doors on the Acela's are extremely finicky!

So the bottom line then is that usually the Conductor opens all doors from a single control position, which can be any door panel, right? That is no different from the Regionals at high platform stations.

Incidentally, rumor has it that the new train sets from Siemens replacing the Amfleet Is are going to come as loco/power head powered 7 car consists with a cab car at the other end.

 

[Cal]

Sometimes longer dwell time may also be required for operational reasons. For example fueling or restocking.

I think this thread is more about longer dwell times that are not scheduled, therefore service stops are exempt.

 

[OBS]

So the bottom line then is that usually the Conductor opens all doors from a single control position, which can be any door panel, right? That is no different from the Regionals at high platform stations.

Incidentally, rumor has it that the new train sets from Siemens replacing the Amfleet Is are going to come as loco/power head powered 7 car consists with a cab car at the other end.

That is correct about door operations...

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Staffing for Conductors on the LD fleet is one conductor per three revenue cars.
So Baggage, sleepers, and coach have a 1/3 of a conductor each. Dinners and full lounge cars are not counted.

The multiple stopping at the station is way to common, and seem more focused on the safety of the crew and not the passenger. I for one have been dumped out on the gravel and had to walk to the platform at Utica, NY.

While the ADA might be causing issues for expanding the passenger boarding areas the baggage service area just needs blacktop. Capital investment is needed for more effective boarding/station stops.

 

[Qapla]

Since the OP had to do with the Silver(s) in Florida - it should be noted (as mentioned in another thread) that a bridge was damaged and delays were caused to all rail traffic while the bridge was shored up ... there could still be delays since that line seems to be well used

 

[Bob Dylan]

Acelas have attendants in Business Class?

Sorry, only in First Class.

 

[River in Sight]

I find this frustrating at ALX as well.. typically only 2 doors are available, with dozens of passengers trying to board at busy times, the station stops seem to eat up around 10 minutes when it's busy, often compounding delays heading south.

 

[MARC Rider]

I find this frustrating at ALX as well.. typically only 2 doors are available, with dozens of passengers trying to board at busy times, the station stops seem to eat up around 10 minutes when it's busy, often compounding delays heading south.

This also happens, of all places, in Washington DC for trains stopping at the lower level or tracks 7, 8 15 or 16 on the upper level. Of course, if it's a through train, the station dwell time will be long enough because they're switching locomotives, but it's quite something about how long it takes to unload a fully packed Northeast Regional arriving from the north when only 2 or 3 doors of an 8 car train are open. For an interesting comparison, the MARC conductors make it their business to open all the doors when they come in on the low platforms in Washington, but the Amtrak conductors don't. It may take a little while, because there are only 2 or 3 conductors, but the trains unload faster than they would if only 2-3 doors were open.

 

[cirdan]

This also happens, of all places, in Washington DC for trains stopping at the lower level or tracks 7, 8 15 or 16 on the upper level. Of course, if it's a through train, the station dwell time will be long enough because they're switching locomotives, but it's quite something about how long it takes to unload a fully packed Northeast Regional arriving from the north when only 2 or 3 doors of an 8 car train are open. For an interesting comparison, the MARC conductors make it their business to open all the doors when they come in on the low platforms in Washington, but the Amtrak conductors don't. It may take a little while, because there are only 2 or 3 conductors, but the trains unload faster than they would if only 2-3 doors were open.

Maybe it's similar to the way on say, a greyhound bus, that the driver typically only opens the front door for getting off at the final stop, even if there is a second door. It gives him the opportunity to stand around nonchalantly and hope passengers remember to give him a tip.