yep the redevelopment and preparations for transbay terminal are going to be large changes to the site.
I assume they'll work to get 420m platforms on some of them for CAHSR
Los Angeles and San Francisco Bay area service
- Thread starter BCL
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
I assume they'll work to get 420m platforms on some of them for CAHSR
It's paywalled. Are you a subscriber? Do you have the ability to "gift" a link?
And it doesn't show up in the Newsbank version of today's paper. Could it be a preview of tomorrow's paper?
Sorry, my cut and paste as well as command v are not working. 5 yr old MacBook giving me problems.
BCL
Engineer
You'll need to click on "Continue Reading" to expand to the full article.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/rea...-could-it-also-bring-more-housing/ar-AA12xeKW
A Newport Beach company, called "Dreamstar Lines", is proposing a new "Lark" train from Los Angeles to San Francisco. The train would leave LA at 10 PM and arrive in SF at 8:30 AM. A roomette would cost around $300 for a one-way trip. Dreamstar Lines would like a startup by the summer of 2024 (good luck!). If the new passenger does come about, why not extend the route to Sacramento, and even further north to Redding or Klamath Falls. A daytime passenger train, northbound from the Bay Area, would be great.
https://is.gd/o8hVn0
https://is.gd/o8hVn0
Going north from the Bay Area turns it into the "12-hour offset" sister to the Coast Starlight proposal, which has been talked about since the 1970's. Times might be jiggled some to make connections, but Portland is the only major market that falls into a bad timeslot. And as PDX and SEA stations are both handy to major sports facilities, there is some late night potential. Fans in the region are already used to the trains for afternoon games. Or, 1970's European style, the new train might stop in Oregon City and Vancouver, WA, with the Portland Union Station closed in the middle of the night.
The problem with this from the California perspective is that southbound schedule reliability would suffer, and it would not go into SF, unless an SF section from LA were to be added. On the other hand, with the current federal legislation, it would be an Amtrak responsibility,
Which means nothing will happen.
A complementary service would be to extend the San Joaquins Trains 711 and 718 into Los Angeles via Barstow and San Bernardino. I think it would sell a lot of coach tickets, even without leg-rest seats. Given the tendencies of the JPA for this route, I think that idea will gather dust, too.
Last edited:
The lack of rolling stock will kill this service unless they are going to completely rebuild 15-20 heritage cars or maybe take old commuter cars gut them and use them as the basis. Ether way rolling stock in NA is tight right now and won't get better for 3-5 years.
Sac to LA was a sleeper train for a few years in the 80s (Spirit of California) which ran with 2 10-6 sleepers, cafe and 2-3 coaches usually pulled by a F40PH.
Going north of Sacramento seems unlikely as then you need to run much further to reach major population centers.
Nothing says amtrak has to run trains over 750 miles, the states could do it themselves and contract the operations out.
UP is highly unlikely to let trains over Tehachipi they've fought ever attempt to this far. Maybe if the state paid to double track the rest we could get 1-2RT daily though but then the question is why, the rail route is incredibly slow compared to buses into LA. San Joaquin Daylights did Oakland to LA in 12 hours by 1970. 5 hours of that was Bakersfield to LA vs 2.5 hours on a bus now
The push by most advocates I know here is to get 3-4RT a day between Oakland and SLO where surfliner service will offer a transfer at 3RT a day south to LA.
3rt could happen with just 2 sets using the existing comet cars and leased horizon cafe cars. 4RT needs 3 sets which means leasing horizon coaches most likely as well.
This is using a 5.25 hour running time which should be doable between Oakland and SLO.
I rode the San Joaquin Daylight in 1968 from Los Angeles to Martinez. It was a long day. The only way that the former SP or Santa Fe routes would have value would be as part of overnight trains and/or access to the huge suburban populations that they tap.
Several proposals for private train service have 'floated' over the years, and with the notable exception of Brightline, all have failed. Some before they got even close to getting started, other's after some time in operation. Some were perhaps scams to bilk investors.
While this proposal doesn't seem to require much capital, using existing routes and stations owned by other's, as well as simply renting existing private cars initially, I would be very surprised if anything more than this proposal ever happens...
While this proposal doesn't seem to require much capital, using existing routes and stations owned by other's, as well as simply renting existing private cars initially, I would be very surprised if anything more than this proposal ever happens...
It didn't take long for this development to spawn of few of those historical retrospectives in the news cycle, including one on CNN.com titled:
Why doesn’t the US have more passenger trains?
Thanks to Mod for adding the link. Every time I tried it defaulted to the CNN account sign-in page.
I'd question just how many private sleeper cars are left that you could lease that have anything other than large rooms.
The coastal route (San Jose to Santa Barbara) should be purchased by California and upgraded. Getting more miles of track infrastructure under public ownership is the real solution. It could be developed so that not only passenger trains but local freight would be hauled. I’m serious about the upgrade! California needs to reduce its carbon foot pricing and by purchasing the infrastructure, up grade to electrification and eliminate surface crossings and opening up competitioin in cargo and passenger operations. It’s been done in Europe successfully and could be done here. Moving from a monopolized infrastructure and operations to an open market would benefit consumers and provide revenue for upgrading. I’ve traveled in Europe enough to see the possibilities.
I think it would be viewed as redundant to CA HSR. With all the money they're investing in that project, it would be tough to sell the electorate on buying and upgrading a parallel route.
The Lark ran into SF proper, so it terminated near the end of the SF peninsula, which means that extending it to points north and or east would require billions of dollars of new RR bridge / tunnel.
If I were going to make the Lark longer, I'd extend the other end to San Diego.
San Jose to Moorpark needs to be bought but its probably going to come at a .8-1B price tag for the 400 miles. We already have the conceptual plans to speed the line upto 110mph.
Competing cargo wise is going to be a hard sell unless we see the state create its own shortline as UP will likely want to keep access to the route as a backup to the central valley.
It is not given the line serves a different market along the coast, upgrading central valley service more would be redundant which is why we see San Joaquins ending in Merced when CAHSR starts.
There is right now talks of a new mainline rail tunnel between Oakland and SF, ether that or another BART tube. There is also the Dumbarton rail bridge which has been considered before for rebuilding.
The issue has long been without a SD maintenance base trains needed to deadhead quite a ways.
Mailliw
OBS Chief
This. Now if a company managed to raise enough money to actually order new sleeping cars from Siemens I'd have a lot more faith in them. They'd also need a budget option (Nightjet's mini-cabins could actually work on a service like this).
it doesn't even need to be new cars but some plan even to rebuild commuter cars would at least show they've thought about the rolling stock issue.
A new main line tunnel to Oakland will cost those billions, but it's encouraging that somebody is talking about it. It would probably require electrification of any route using it (or solve one hell of a ventilation problem), so even more hurdles.
BART has a non-standard rail gauge, so its tunnels are probably unusable. All BART cars are powered, enabling rather steep grades that a diesel might not be able to handle. And then there's vertical clearance. Still, it might be possible to dual-gauge a new tunnel that has high clearance and limited grades in and out.
Dumbarton is 25-30 miles south of SF (depending what part of the city you measure from), so a lot of back-tracking. One train visits Orlando like that; how do people like it?
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
I think you meant to say Tampa, not Orlando.
There is a huge turnover of riders in Tampa, to the extent that it is almost like a New York to Tampa train and then a Tampa to Miami train. Ridership at Tampa and Orlando are within 15,000 of each other and each is close to double the ridership at Miami. So people probably don't mind it too much. In case you insist on riding the Star from Miami to Orlando via Tampa, it takes about two more hours than the Meteor which takes the direct route.
west point
Engineer
Extend to Dan Diego? Not a good idea as noted by others. Purchase of the coast line by California IMO is a good idea. A purchase agreement with UP that makes a tonnage agreement part of the purchase price. So much a ton is payment for buying the line. One important point would be for complete installation of the various car defect detectors with just a few miles between detectors. Set out sidings included.
After purchase an effort to eliminate the slow sections especially from Gilroy - Watsonville - Salinas. CTC with all siding signaled. Maybe even a passenger by pass of Watsonville?
Present speeds average time is 10 - 11 hours. speed 38 - 42 MPH. At present it is 425 miles from LAX to San Jose. At an average speed of 50 MPH = 8-1/2 hours. Leave LAX at 2130 arrive SJC 0600. Split train at SJC and leave for SFO arriving about 0800. Add to train 524 arr OAK at 0745 and SAC 0950.
Southbound arr LAX 0730 leaving SFO 2100, SAC 1900, SJC 2300. Now an average speed of 60 MPH in future after all improvements would be 7:00 enroute LAX <> SJC Whatever the speeds a very long passing siding near San Loui9s Obispo needed to prevent any delayed one way to not slow in other direction.
After purchase an effort to eliminate the slow sections especially from Gilroy - Watsonville - Salinas. CTC with all siding signaled. Maybe even a passenger by pass of Watsonville?
Present speeds average time is 10 - 11 hours. speed 38 - 42 MPH. At present it is 425 miles from LAX to San Jose. At an average speed of 50 MPH = 8-1/2 hours. Leave LAX at 2130 arrive SJC 0600. Split train at SJC and leave for SFO arriving about 0800. Add to train 524 arr OAK at 0745 and SAC 0950.
Southbound arr LAX 0730 leaving SFO 2100, SAC 1900, SJC 2300. Now an average speed of 60 MPH in future after all improvements would be 7:00 enroute LAX <> SJC Whatever the speeds a very long passing siding near San Loui9s Obispo needed to prevent any delayed one way to not slow in other direction.
If any trains run to San Diego, then long-distance trains can run to San Diego.
Setting aside Cal's HSR for a moment, I think another western north-south route would be worthwhile -- but instead of running along the ocean, it would sneak out of SoCal to the Central Valley and run up the line of eastern cities to Sacramento (missing the SF Bay Area but saving a lot of time). North of there, it could be mostly the same as the Starlight, but with different hours. Maybe it and the Starlight could diverge in southern Oregon so that Medford could be covered. And if the schedule allowed, the new train could run all the way to Vancouver BC rather than terminating in Seattle.
What should we name a new San Diego to Vancouver BC route?
Setting aside Cal's HSR for a moment, I think another western north-south route would be worthwhile -- but instead of running along the ocean, it would sneak out of SoCal to the Central Valley and run up the line of eastern cities to Sacramento (missing the SF Bay Area but saving a lot of time). North of there, it could be mostly the same as the Starlight, but with different hours. Maybe it and the Starlight could diverge in southern Oregon so that Medford could be covered. And if the schedule allowed, the new train could run all the way to Vancouver BC rather than terminating in Seattle.
What should we name a new San Diego to Vancouver BC route?
Dual gauge is out because BART can't mix with mainline stock. They were at one point considering doing both mainline and BART but dropped that due to cost and believing that just 1 would deliver enough capacity.
We have the 90s studies to outline what likely should be done. Coast Rail Coordinating Council (CRCC) | slocog
Splitting/joining should be avoided unless we see MUs with automatic couplers.
west point
Engineer
First have a loco on each end of train. Then each section has a cab car that joins each other in the middle of combined train. Separate at SJC and each to its own way. Combining at SJC 2 cab cars come together and class "A" brake check while loading and away you go to LAX,. BTW have often wondered why there has not been an Amtrak train that could do same? i
