Lunatrain: the Nightjet of North America?

[Mailliw]

I learned about this in the Dreamstar thread. I'm very skeptical this will ever get off the ground (assuming it's it's even a real proposal to begin with), but it's still a very interesting proposal. These are exactly the type of routes and services I think I think Amtrak should exploring. They make some very good points about sleeping accommodations. The concept renderings are literally the same style as the new Nightjet trains, which suggests one of 2 things. They just copied the designs as a demonstration, or they have plan on having order Venture Coaches from Siemens with the Nightjet layouts.
https://www.ridelunatrain.com/

 

[joelkfla]

I learned about this in the Dreamstar thread. I'm very skeptical this will ever get off the ground (assuming it's it's even a real proposal to begin with), but it's still a very interesting proposal. These are exactly the type of routes and services I think I think Amtrak should exploring. They make some very good points about sleeping accommodations. The concept renderings are literally the same style as the new Nightjet trains, which suggests one of 2 things. They just copied the designs as a demonstration, or they have plan on having order Venture Coaches from Siemens with the Nightjet layouts.
https://www.ridelunatrain.com/

I would rather be in a Roomette than one of those capsule things that you have to crawl into. They might appeal to younger folks.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The capsule type accommodation might be OK in Europe where you leave late at night and wake up in early morning at your destination, but since there is no daytime seating it would not work for many US routes which involve a lot of daytime travel where you need a comfortable place to sit.

 

[MARC Rider]

These are exactly the type of routes and services I think I think Amtrak should exploring. They make some very good points about sleeping accommodations.

Actually, not really. Amtrak should be focusing first on expanding daytime corridor service and making the existing long-distance network more reliable. The overnight "Night Owl" or "redeye" service in the northeast works because of a number of unique factors: numerous large intermediate cities, the combination of commuter traffic (PHL-WAS, WIL-WAS, BAL-WAS, PVD-BOS) with the overnight through traffic, and the fact that the trains terminate early in the morning. I used to take 67 (both through from Boston - Washington and commuter from Baltimore to Washington), and its main feature was that I would get into Washington early enough to be on time for work.

 

[Anderson]

So, I see a few issues right off the bat:
(1) I realize the appeal of "express, non-stop service", but in a lot of cases this means you're going to dump one or more non-trivial ancillary markets that are basically free money at that point. For example, New York-Montreal should include at least Poughkeepsie and Albany or Stamford and New Haven. Boston-Washington should include Baltimore and Providence. As a note, even the 20th Century Limited had Albany and the Broadway Limited had Philadelphia (okay, North Philadelphia due to routing issues).
(2) A full diner/lounge service is probably unnecessary at the scale of a number of the shorter trips. My guess is that this is a bit of puff and you'd get a cafe with a kitchen to serve some pre-prepped meals (you can do a lot with this) - I agree that some food option is a good idea in the evening (I'd probably want to have dinner in NYC, but if it becomes One Of Those Days [A] and I can't wedge it in for some reason, knowing I can get something from the cafe is some nice piece of mind)
(3) Some of those indicated/implied markets are very different from one another. Chicago-Denver is like 16 hours while New York/Philadelphia/DC-Chicago can run a bit longer by their suggested routes, and that's going to behave far differently from an 8-12 hour service. Here the diner (or something more substantial, at least) becomes necessary because you're now stuck with two meal periods (dinner and breakfast, presumably) rather than just being on the shoulder of one of them (generally dinner).
(4) I want to know who the investors and planners are. This feels a lot like some of the new European sleeper services, but there's enough that's weird that I want to know who is behind the project and what sorts of investment they have lined up. Even a single service with two new sets of equipment would likely cost at least $100m (I'm presuming 8-10 cars per train and going with the Siemens Brightliner cars for my cost estimate), so there's got to be some serious money at play.



[A] Like last night, where my flight was delayed by over an hour at Norfolk due to a busted seat, so I didn't have time for dinner at Atlanta and got into Orlando at 0030...

 

[Mailliw]

I agree that limit stop express service makes much more sense than non-stop service. I think the main draw of the lounge car is so that passengers in the solo-pods aren't cooped in their pods the whole time. Since there's no need for a large galley you could fit luggage and crew compartments in there and still have decent lounge space.

 

[Steve4031]

The European model sleeping cars will not fly in the United States. I will not share a room with other people. The current Amtrak roomette setup is superior. I think the way to go is to develop all roomette sleeping cars for more capacity. The roomettes could be occupied by a solo passenger or two people traveling together. There should be at least four bathrooms in the car versus the current 2.

 

[MARC Rider]

The European model sleeping cars will not fly in the United States. I will not share a room with other people. The current Amtrak roomette setup is superior. I think the way to go is to develop all roomette sleeping cars for more capacity. The roomettes could be occupied by a solo passenger or two people traveling together. There should be at least four bathrooms in the car versus the current 2.

Back when train 66/67 had a sleeping car, it also had 4 or 5 coaches. So for the 20 or 30 people who rode in the sleeper, there at least a couple of hundred who rode in the open coaches, sometimes sitting next to strangers. Nobody has tried couchettes in the US, it's not clear that the concept will be rejected out of hand by American travelers.

 

[cirdan]

The European model sleeping cars will not fly in the United States. I will not share a room with other people. The current Amtrak roomette setup is superior. I think the way to go is to develop all roomette sleeping cars for more capacity. The roomettes could be occupied by a solo passenger or two people traveling together. There should be at least four bathrooms in the car versus the current 2.

I think you are confusing European sleeping cars with couchette cars. Sleeper cars are for the most part for sole occupancy or for couples or families travelling together. The more up market ones have en-suite bathrooms. The more spartan ones just have a wash basin in the room. Beds are typically properly made and have soft mattresses. On many types of car, there are connecting doors between pairs of adjacent rooms that normally remain locked, but that can be unlocked to permit families to share. Readers of Agatha Christie will recall that such a door was used in the Murder on the Orient Express.

Couchette cars on the other hand are where you may end up sharing with a crowd of strangers in a room of six thinly padded bunks, sleeping in a linen sleeping bag that keeps on getting into a knot in the corner, have no washing facilities in the room, have a thermostat that doesn't work, and be awoken by somebody getting on or off with heavy luggage at stupid o clock in the morning.

 

[Anderson]

The European model sleeping cars will not fly in the United States. I will not share a room with other people. The current Amtrak roomette setup is superior. I think the way to go is to develop all roomette sleeping cars for more capacity. The roomettes could be occupied by a solo passenger or two people traveling together. There should be at least four bathrooms in the car versus the current 2.

I hope they wouldn't fly - that would imply a nasty derailment.

Okay, punning around aside...

I think some berths could work in the US, but this is on the order of "two dozen berths for a solo budget item out of 150 spaces", and those berths are more private than most airline options out there. It's notable that VIA is planning to retain berths in their overhaul of the Canadian. But I also agree that couchettes aren't going to work in the US.

 

[allanorn]

Not a terrible idea, but nothing west of DAL/MSP is concerning. LAX-SFO is an attractive market with other companies looking at it. Maybe there's a market for LAX-LAS. SFO-PDX is probably a little too far out but if they can make CHI-DEN work....

I don't think couchette cars would be popular, though they could be useful for families or a group traveling together. Pods are definitely more secure at night, though I haven't tried one for comfort. Another consideration could be Business class/First Class international lie-flats similar to Slumbercoaches; could be an interesting and cheaper alternative.

 

[jiml]

I think both couchettes and pod sleepers are liability issues in North America. The former due to the potential of what could happen (or be alleged to have happened) with strangers behind closed doors and the latter due to safety issues. (Do you really want to be in a sealed sleeping tube if there was an overnight accident/derailment?)

 

[railiner]

4) I want to know who the investors and planners are. This feels a lot like some of the new European sleeper services, but there's enough that's weird that I want to know who is behind the project and what sorts of investment they have lined up. Even a single service with two new sets of equipment would likely cost at least $100m (I'm presuming 8-10 cars per train and going with the Siemens Brightliner cars for my cost estimate), so there's got to be some serious money at play.

This help?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeavena

 

[Steve4031]

A possible alternative would be to have two classes of coach seating on these overnight trains. One would be the traditional long-distance seating used by Amtrak on overnight trains. The second would be a single lie-flat seat on each side of the aisle for the entire length of the car, with a shower at one end of the car and toilets at the other end. Americans are already familiar with this concept. These types of seats are used on the bullet trains in China. They would work for an overnight trip. This would simplify the cars' construction because all cars could be Venture shells or Airo shells.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

This help?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeavena

If you put the below statement on your linkedin page, that about far enough of a dive into this operation I need to do.

early-stage company

That said I do hope for success.

 

[Mailliw]

The problem with lie-flat seating is that's it's actually a very poor use of space in a train car unless you stack them (in which case you've basically reinvented the Slumbercoach). And I would love to see a modern Slumbercoach design, just as long as the in-room toilets are omitted!