Main CZ #5 & 6 Discussion Thread

[yarrow]

it is sure too bad for folks who have trips planned. as my wife says "that's the problem with amtrak. you are never sure they will get you to your destination or if they will get you home." amtrak has lost credibility as a transportation company. they are a train ride company like the narrow gague tourist lines in colorado. though with worse otp.

I find service to be incredibly reliable, convenient and on time when traveling to NYC from BOS/PVD. I do it almost once a month. I think they are a very reliable transportation company.

we live on the route of the eb and travel mainly the western ld trains. the nec does look like it has good otp. as for us, we have been bustituted, abandonded and delivered to our destination up to 15 hours late by amtrak several times. when we have a trip booked are never sure if it will happen, if they will get us home and when we will arrive at our endpoints

 

[Devil's Advocate]

They cannot be serious. CHI-DEN is the most popular section of that route, they have to add extra cars just between those two stations to satisfy demand in peak season. And they want to DROP daily service? What the hell are these people smoking?!

The CZ has had an extraordinary series of accidents and incidents in a year chock full of complications and setbacks. Amtrak is likely running low on replacement hardware and has few if any alternatives to address their increasingly poor schedule keeping. They also have a federal government increasingly staffed by politicians who are overtly hostile toward passenger rail funding. We're basically talking about a perfect storm of heavily impacted operations combined with an extremely difficult budget environment. Amtrak is under as much pressure today as at any time since their first few years and will likely be looking for excuses to cut back as much as much of their money losing network as they think congress will allow. Judging by the current membership I'd say congress isn't going to be demanding much service outside of a few primary corridors where support is still strong.

 

[John-MCPO-USN]

Jim and Jeff (and others)

Well, I knew that it wasn't going to be easy when I went to the Jacksonville Ticket Counter----to exchange the 1 Sleeper voucher (from CHI to SAC), for a new voucher (DEN to SAC) - and receive the $191 credit for the cancelled #5 out of CHI.....the agents were incredibly nice and helpful, but just could not get the new voucher to print----nor, could they figure out how to get me the $191 credit due. After numerous phone calls to DC and Phily, about 60min later, I was finally provided my new sleeper ticket for DEN to SAC and given $191 in cash as my refund (they were trying to tell me that AMTRAK was going to mail me my refund----ha ha ha ha----not falling for that). The CSR rep on the phone this AM told me she could not credit the $191 back to my card, since I still had the original sleeper voucher-----but the Agent at the station told me that was wrong---and the CSR could issue the credit. So, for those of you calling about credits---not sure if you will get it via phone or ticket office.

So, the Train Odyssey 2011 Adventure is back on, with an Air-Bridge in the middle. Departing JAX on #98 to DC on 9/20; #51 to CHI on 9/21; then the SouthWest Flight to DEN on 9/22; #5 from DEN to SAC on 9/23; #14 to SEA on 9/25; #8 to CHI on 9/27; #30 to DC on 9/30, and finally home to JAX on #97 on 10/1. If anyone is also traveling those dates/trains, let me know.

Jim and Jeff - thanks for your input...................John

 

[DEN Trails & Rails]

Date: Sunday, 4 Sept. 2011, 8:10 am, MDT

So when will the first CZ depart EMY ?

The Amtrak press release, dated 1 Sept. 2011 said # 6 would depart EMY on Sat. 3 Sept.

From what I can see, on the Amtrak website, that never happened...

For today, the website shows a 'service disruption'. for # 6.

Calling Amtrak right now, the wait time for an agent is 10 minutes...

Why does Amtrak seem to 'hide' simple information from the paying passengers, and the public. ??

Peter Richards

 

[Rufus]

> Why does Amtrak seem to 'hide' simple information from the paying passengers, and the public. ??

I have seen several similar thoughts here lately.

There is, of course, the conspiracy theory. But that's really not the most likely explanation.

Reporting real time status on at least 4 main channels (facebook, twitter, amtrak website, amtrak internal directives [many]) on a very large complex system (Amtrak) which changes hourly in response to unpredictable outside forces is actually quite a difficult job. For an entity which has been cut to the bone with funding reductions which eliminate every possible job position - it's unlikely they have the people, procedures and systems to do this very well.

True, it's an organizational screw up, so we can all assign blame and point fingers. But please understand that good real time info on large complex systems is NOT a no brainer - it's actually very difficult to set up and maintain. I worked as a systems analyst in banks and insurance companies in the 70's and 80's; I have been in hundreds of situations where people try to communicate and try to provide and recieve consistent info. Regardless of the time, money and highly talented and motivated people thrown at problems claiming better than 50% success would be ridiculous.

Amtrak would be well advised to clean up their public info systems. But they might not be able to do that completely right at the moment.

FWIW. Rufus

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

This post seems to indicate that #6 was seen leaving the Bay Area yesterday. And poster GenePoon, who is a well informed TO member, also mentions that a protect trainset was deadheaded to DEN from CHI as well. Stay positive.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Submitted for consideration/opinions: With the Gathering coming up the first week in October,many of our members have reservations on the Zephyrs, both #5 and #6.

Allegedly Amtrak will start the full route sometime? around the end of Sept./start of October! :unsure: TBA!!! <_< If the Denver-CHI section is still shut down, members can rebook on the Empire Builder or the SWC/CS, IF space is available! (Its a Looooooooooong ride in Coach! :excl: :excl: :excl: )

For the return, some members have booked the EB, some the CS/CZ, some the CS/SWC, even the CS/SSL/TE. In my case, there is only One routing on a 2 Zone AGR Award, CS/CZ/Thruway/TE (SEA-EMY-GBB-SPI-AUS). Wonder if Amtrak would allow an overnight in CHI or LA on their nickel since they are the ones that might cancel the Denver-CHI section with No Alternate Transportation Provided? Inquiring minds want to know?? :help:

 

[Ben_G]

I learned one thing....they are fast taking the money from your bank account but slow putting it back in. There was no offer to make reservations on any other route such as the EB, just we will refund and put the money back in your account, that has not happened yet.

 

[DEN Trails & Rails]

> Why does Amtrak seem to 'hide' simple information from the paying passengers, and the public. ??

I have seen several similar thoughts here lately.

There is, of course, the conspiracy theory. But that's really not the most likely explanation.

Reporting real time status on at least 4 main channels (facebook, twitter, amtrak website, amtrak internal directives [many]) on a very large complex system (Amtrak) which changes hourly in response to unpredictable outside forces is actually quite a difficult job. For an entity which has been cut to the bone with funding reductions which eliminate every possible job position - it's unlikely they have the people, procedures and systems to do this very well.

True, it's an organizational screw up, so we can all assign blame and point fingers. But please understand that good real time info on large complex systems is NOT a no brainer - it's actually very difficult to set up and maintain. I worked as a systems analyst in banks and insurance companies in the 70's and 80's; I have been in hundreds of situations where people try to communicate and try to provide and recieve consistent info. Regardless of the time, money and highly talented and motivated people thrown at problems claiming better than 50% success would be ridiculous.

Amtrak would be well advised to clean up their public info systems. But they might not be able to do that completely right at the moment.

FWIW. Rufus

Sunday, 4 Sept. 1 pm, MDT

Rufus...

Thanks for the further thoughts... about why it is so difficult for the public, and paying customers, to learn simple information from Amtrak.

My further question to you would be what are the priorities amongst the four main 'channels' you list above...

After the Amtrak 'internal directives' are taken care of, my # 2 priority would be to get the information on the website.

Agree ??

Why would you mess with facebook and twitter ?

Fixing the Amtrak public information system in not a new project.

Peter Richards

 

[Bob Dylan]

According to a post on trainorders, most of the jobs in the crew bases between Denver and Chicago are eliminated as of Sept. 2nd! :wacko:

Does this mean that they are layed off, or terminated or will be re-located? :unsure: A further posts asks if this means that the current practice of flying crews/OBS between CHI and Denver will be eliminated??? Will Amtrak continue to deadhead equipment and crews between Denver and CHI??? Why can't Amtrak provide valid information about this Route??? :unsure: Wouldnt want to be answering phones for AGR or Amtrak right now, probably not lots of fun in CUS or Denver's"Temporary" Station either! :help:

 

[yarrow]

Why can't Amtrak provide valid information about this Route???

amen

 

[PRR 60]

According to a post on trainorders, most of the jobs in the crew bases between Denver and Chicago are eliminated as of Sept. 2nd! :wacko:

Does this mean that they are layed off, or terminated or will be re-located? :unsure: A further posts asks if this means that the current practice of flying crews/OBS between CHI and Denver will be eliminated??? Will Amtrak continue to deadhead equipment and crews between Denver and CHI??? Why can't Amtrak provide valid information about this Route??? :unsure: Wouldnt want to be answering phones for AGR or Amtrak right now, probably not lots of fun in CUS or Denver's"Temporary" Station either! :help:

The eliminated positions are conductors and engineers. The affected employees can either go on furlough, or temporarily relocate to another area and bump lower seniority people on another job. The Chicago-based service crews will continue to be flown to and from Denver as needed.

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Thanks for the info! Makes it tough to have a regular life when you work on the Railroad where Seniority is King! :help: Hopefully this Route will be up and running by the end of the Month and everyone gets their jobs back, and the pax for the Zephyr get to ride the whole route!

 

[Rufus]

Peter and group,

I am not an Amtrak employee, nor do I have "inside information". I did spend 15 years in IT at large institutions working with "users" and "management" trying to arrange that each provide the much needed information the other wanted to do their jobs.

Problems include:

1) The information doesn't exist to begin with. Ie. no decision has been made yet. There can be many legitimate reasons for this - and lots of the other kind. Amtrak probably suffers from this problem.

2) The information exists in multiple forms and is not consistent. The left hand and the right hand often have trouble working in concert so they just go to work individually. People who need the info and don't have it given to them to their satisfaction take it upon themselves to get it - often they get it from different sources which results in different answers to the same question depending who you talk to. IOW, info is not dependable and has to be verified and checked out 20 times to be sure.

3) Leadership doesn't have the authority or resources required to solve the problem. This leads to many "end runs" "finesses" and other wishful executive tricks trying to get the job done; many of these methods by necessity totally bypass normal info channels. This is just running in circles fighting fires while you slowly drown.

I think Amtrak suffers severely from #1 and #3; #2 also likely plays a part. It looks to me like Amtrak and particularly their executives have had the ground cut from beneath them in the resource department and they and the company are being systematically starved to death. And any decision they might want to make can be rescinded by any of the freight carriers at any moment and they have no support anywhere from anybody. IMHO it is nothing short of miraculous and a testament to a few obsessively dedicated people that amtrak works at all, at least west of Chicago. There is enough money riding the eastern coaches to give it a better chance there.

If Amtrak is to remain alive as an energy saving national transportation option it needs federal political support. Without that there is no way (nada) to address it's info problems because those problems stem directly from it's deadly fiscal wasting disease; that can only be cured with an adequet resource base AND public policy support which would allow recovery of a decent level of morale and employee support. If you want to fix Amtrak, write you legislators; apply any pressure you can.

> channels...

The social networks are part of the mix for one reason - they are dirt cheap and moderately effective. The Amtrak webpage may or may not be as easy to publish. I would guess it's not as easy if for no other reason than any manager with more than one bean over his neck tie would want to control the content of their site very carefully on pain of personal liability. This requires multiple steps to vet and authorize the content. The social media are not yet viewed as quite so delicate and one employee with a bit of good judgment could probably receive and maintain authorization to publish w/out special overview. This would make posting to the social media significantly quicker than posting to the web page. Also, the web page may be contracted out and the update procedure may take a day or more. To say nothing about the maze one has to go through to even _find_ the "services" page on the site!

Sorry for rant, but: I believe trains are a FAR superior way for the USA to move its people in the medium term and it pains me to see a huge investment in equipment and people trashed for no good reason. This is YOUR money used to build Amtrak that is going to get sold off at .10 on the dollar to the freights. If you have an opinion on this, share it with the "higher ups".

Rufus

 

[lionelhoguy]

This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?

 

[yarrow]

This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?

others will know a lot more than i on this but i think it's a general lack of rolling stock and not specifically engines. also i think there are speed restricitions when using a freight engine even were the freight rr's to agree. i would be in favor of amtrak leasing the business cars the freight rr's have salted away. ha ha

 

[lionelhoguy]

That makes sense, I guess you need some place to put the passengers too. I would be up for them releasing some of the old business cars for revenue service to fill some of the equipment gaps. I would probably find more time to ride then. :lol:

 

[George B]

This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?

Some things right off the bat:

Freight locos usually cannot provide proper head-end power for the train.

It costs a lot of money, as not only are you renting power, but a crew as well to run the freight locos.

Most freight railroads do not have the resources to lease power AND crews for passenger service on a regular scheduled basis. You are taking away resources they could be using for their regular customers.

Freight companies are not excited at all about having their equipment and crews involved in operating a passenger train. Their liability and chance of a lawsuit increase by a factor of about 500 or more, should something happen while they are pulling the passenger train.

 

[MikefromCrete]

This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?

Some things right off the bat:

Freight locos usually cannot provide proper head-end power for the train.

It costs a lot of money, as not only are you renting power, but a crew as well to run the freight locos.

Most freight railroads do not have the resources to lease power AND crews for passenger service on a regular scheduled basis. You are taking away resources they could be using for their regular customers.

Freight companies are not excited at all about having their equipment and crews involved in operating a passenger train. Their liability and chance of a lawsuit increase by a factor of about 500 or more, should something happen while they are pulling the passenger train.

Amtrak crews could operate the freight locomotives, but you would need an Amtrak locomotive in the consist to provide the head end power. Freight locomotives are not geared for passenger service, so the top speed for a train would be considerable lower, making it hard, if not impossible to keep the schedule.

 

[Casinocim]

Last night arriving in Denver on my SWC thruway about 10:30pm, there was a train parked there at Denver(temp station). I assumed it was the CZ. Was trying to read the last page of this thread to see what was happening with the CZ.

Anyway, was this the CZ? And were there passengers on it, the train looked dead to me. It was shiny, really shiny almost as if it were new.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Here it is September 5th and there is still no Service Alert on Amtrak's website about the suspension of service between CHI and DEN for 5 & 6. :help: I know I've 'railed' in this vein previously, and while I appreciate they posted something on Facebook and have a news release at the website, it seems to me that there should be ONE place where Amtrak consistently posts Service Alerts and Passenger Service Notices, and at a minimum, there should be a prominent link on the home page whenever there are 'issues' - which is almost always. Many of us here are seasoned Amtrak 'users' and know the usual places to look on amtrak.com, but nevertheless usually find that HERE - a blog that is not affiliated with Amtrak, is the best source of information. For 'newbies' and casual riders, how in the heck are they supposed to figure out what is going on? :excl:

Now I'll cross threads h34r: and say that maybe the lack of forthright, accurate or often ANY information from Amtrak is the worst part of Amtrak. :help:

 

[George Harris]

This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?

Some things right off the bat:

Freight locos usually cannot provide proper head-end power for the train.

It costs a lot of money, as not only are you renting power, but a crew as well to run the freight locos.

Most freight railroads do not have the resources to lease power AND crews for passenger service on a regular scheduled basis. You are taking away resources they could be using for their regular customers.

Freight companies are not excited at all about having their equipment and crews involved in operating a passenger train. Their liability and chance of a lawsuit increase by a factor of about 500 or more, should something happen while they are pulling the passenger train.

Amtrak crews could operate the freight locomotives, but you would need an Amtrak locomotive in the consist to provide the head end power. Freight locomotives are not geared for passenger service, so the top speed for a train would be considerable lower, making it hard, if not impossible to keep the schedule.

Generally the freight carriers want their own engineer in the cab. There are differences. Normally most freight engines are geared for 70 mph so there is not really that much difference. The major difficulties in timekeeping would be on routes with long sections good for 79 mph, like parts of the Empire Builder route and the Silvers. Then there is the Southwest Chief route which has long segments west of Albuquerque that permit 90 mph. For a curvey route like the CZ between Denver and Salt Lake City, the difference would probably be nil.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Current Service Advisory on Amtrak.com : For service between Chicago and Denver, bookings can be made on the SWC#3/#4 to Raton,NM. The layover is like 5-6 hours, :wacko: so staffing will be extended at the Raton Station awaiting the arrival/departure of the SWC and the THRUWAY BUSSES to/from Denver! The way the thruways are scheduled, pax would have to spend the night in Denver to catch either the CZ#5 Westbound, or if coming off #6, to catch the Thruway to Raton the next morning! No mention of being put up on Amtraks nickel?? Bookings to California still seem more prudent on the SWC/TE-Sunset/ or the EB!

Has anyone booked this Routing yet or have any further info??? :help:

 

[rlaggren]

I have re-booked to Chicago through Portland from San Francisco, 9-20ish IIRC (too much scanning webpages - it's all a blur...). It looks plausible; too bad going through so many mountains at night and I'll probably be dead meat from lack of sleep, but Oh Well! I'll post when I get to Chicago and wake up but all the excitement s/b about over by then.

Rufus

 

[Amtrak George]

DENVER 5:35 a.m.departure to Raton for Chicago passengers This is an option listed in the disruption notices on Amtrak's website. It includes about 6 hour layovers in Raton (in both directions). This is the same bus that already connects to the Chief for the west.

This is a terrible 'remedy.' Why would anyone that is not desperate to ride a train choose this connection? Why not run a special charter bus (or van, if there are not enough passengers to fill a bus) and connect in La Junta both directions with a platform to platform transfer?

If Amtrak could think outside the box on some of these temporary connections and make them convenient, more people would come back and ride again.