Man Pushed In Front Of Subway Train

[Devil's Advocate]

His ability to ready his camera, steady the frame, and focus the lens implies he wasn't frozen by confusion and concern like the victim may have been.

I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of thought needed to take the picture.

A sloppy split second picture of a stationary object in bright sunlight is easy and quick. A well cropped crystal clear picture of a moving subway in a poorly lit cavern is an entirely different situation in my experience. Then again maybe my DSLR isn't nearly as advanced and sophisticated as Alan's amazing phone camera.

I can't say I would have the presence of mind to do much of anything if I were in the same situation (which is why I asked questions about how to avoid getting injured if you end up on the tracks upthread), but if I end up with a picture of a newsworthy event such as that one, I don't see where it's immoral to make it available. It's an absolutely tragic picture knowing what's about to happen, but I'm not sure why you're railing against it being published.

There's nothing immoral about making it available to the investigators and allowing them to release it as a public service for free. Apparently Mr. Abbasi thought he'd get some sort of hero's welcome for selling his photos of the victim to the NY Post and is disappointed to be met with criticism instead. Maybe in New York he's still a hero no matter what he did, but where I come from you don't attempt to take any credit for a life you never managed to save in the first place.

Heck, who knows, maybe the extra publicity on the story because of the picture being published help lead to the killer being caught?

I guess I missed the photo Mr. Abbasi took of the perpetrator who pushed Mr. Ki Suk Han onto the tracks and then sold to the NY Post. What a brave man Mr. Abbasi was to go out on a limb and risk his own life through retribution in order to bring a dangerous killer to justice.

 

[Ryan]

His ability to ready his camera, steady the frame, and focus the lens implies he wasn't frozen by confusion and concern like the victim may have been.

I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of thought needed to take the picture.

A sloppy split second picture of a stationary object in bright sunlight is easy and quick. A well cropped crystal clear picture of a moving subway in a poorly lit cavern is an entirely different situation in my experience. Then again maybe my DSLR isn't nearly as advanced and sophisticated as Alan's amazing phone camera.

Your post would be a lot easier to deal with if you dropped the sarcasm and hyperbole. In *my* experience, taking such a shot isn't that hard if you're carrying around a DSLR and it's properly set up for your surroundings.

I can't say I would have the presence of mind to do much of anything if I were in the same situation (which is why I asked questions about how to avoid getting injured if you end up on the tracks upthread), but if I end up with a picture of a newsworthy event such as that one, I don't see where it's immoral to make it available. It's an absolutely tragic picture knowing what's about to happen, but I'm not sure why you're railing against it being published.

There's nothing immoral about making it available to the investigators and allowing them to release it as a public service for free. Apparently Mr. Abbasi thought he'd get some sort of hero's welcome for selling his photos of the victim to the NY Post and is disappointed to be met with criticism instead. Maybe in New York he's still a hero no matter what he did, but where I come from you don't attempt to take any credit for a life you never managed to save in the first place.

Who said anything about being a hero or hime trying to take credit for saving a life? He took a picture that someone found compelling enough to pay for, nothing more.

Heck, who knows, maybe the extra publicity on the story because of the picture being published help lead to the killer being caught?

I guess I missed the photo Mr. Abbasi took of the perpetrator who pushed Mr. Ki Suk Han onto the tracks and then sold to the NY Post. What a brave man Mr. Abbasi was to go out on a limb and risk his own life through retribution in order to bring a dangerous killer to justice.

I never said that he took a photo of the perp. Try reading my post again.

 

[photg1985]

His ability to ready his camera, steady the frame, and focus the lens implies he wasn't frozen by confusion and concern like the victim may have been.

I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of thought needed to take the picture.

A sloppy split second picture of a stationary object in bright sunlight is easy and quick. A well cropped crystal clear picture of a moving subway in a poorly lit cavern is an entirely different situation in my experience. Then again maybe my DSLR isn't nearly as advanced and sophisticated as Alan's amazing phone camera.

Your post would be a lot easier to deal with if you dropped the sarcasm and hyperbole. In *my* experience, taking such a shot isn't that hard if you're carrying around a DSLR and it's properly set up for your surroundings.

Plus photoshop. To pretend that this photo was cropped or adjusted after the fact but before publication is crazy. He took multiple, multiple pics. The post took the best one and cropped it or altered it to make it look good for the cover. To use that, without the original, as an indictment on the man's psyche is over doing it.

 

[photg1985]

That is supposed to be wasn't cropped or adjusted

 

[Ryan]

Indeed - walking around with my D700 set on Continuous - High I'll get 5 FPS. One of them HAS to come out!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In *my* experience, taking such a shot isn't that hard if you're carrying around a DSLR and it's properly set up for your surroundings.

Not hard at all. Hard is making the call where you sell the photos of a soon-to-be-dead subject to a tabloid before they're even buried. Professional photographers have used powerful imagery of all kinds of horrific events as part of a pro-transparency lifestyle that puts them in harms way and rewards them with exceptionally high rates of death and suicide. Is that what this guy did? Not even close. Mr. Abbasi is apparently just some random guy who saw a chance to parlay a horrific event into some sort of aspiring paparazzi payoff and received more than he bargained for in return. Kind of like all those Twilight Zone parables about being careful what you wish for lest you actually realize it. Instead of sucking it up and accepting responsibility for his actions (or lack thereof) he just pleads for more compassion and understanding. Not for the actual victim but for himself. Truly pathetic.

To pretend that this photo was cropped or adjusted after the fact but before publication is crazy.

No, pushing a man off a platform to his sudden and horrific death is crazy. I'm merely pointing out what I see as a rather immoral man pretending to be some sort of clueless bystander who just barely missed becoming a hero after his illogical scheme to prevent harm by photographing it failed to have the (supposedly) desired impact.

He took multiple, multiple pics. The post took the best one and cropped it or altered it to make it look good for the cover. To use that, without the original, as an indictment on the man's psyche is over doing it.

How exactly would Mr. Abbasi's actions have differed if he was simply trying to capture the event for profit and fame and didn't care one bit if the train stopped? Would anything have changed at all? How much time would have to pass before you'd start wondering if Mr. Abbassi really didn't have time to do anything but take photos? Cameras are a lot like computers, insomuch as they can achieve great things when used with precision. Otherwise it's garbage in, garbage out. Photoshop has many amazing features, but it's no miracle worker. If I just randomly operate my camera's flash as some sort of quick-thinking warning device to a subway operator without steadying my camera and focusing, as the photographer supposedly did, then any photos which just happen to result will still look like fuzzy useless crap when Photoshop gets done with them. Somewhere deep down you must realize this, but I guess it's easier to just pretend Photoshop can somehow rewrite history.

 

[Ryan]

So you take this picture.

Word gets out that you have it, and people call you and offer you money for the picture.

And you're going to claim that the correct response is "Sorry, no. I won't take your money for this, but I'll give it to you for free since I wasn't in any danger when I took it."

Riiiiiiight.

No, I'm not buying the "tried to warn the train" story. But if he wasn't in a position to help, I can't fault him for taking the picture and I can't fault him for accepting money for it.

 

[AlanB]

I know that it's hard for you to accept logic and that you love to try to find the obscure and ridiculous in anything; but when the man stands up on live TV and announces that he was hoping to attract the attention of the train operator with the flash; then yes I'm sure that's what he was thinking.

You didn’t actually dispute my point. All you did was remind us that Mr. Abbasi was on live television pleading for compassion and inform us that this was somehow enough to make you certain as to what was going on in his head. Now you're changing your tune slightly to say that you're only certain his mind has to think up words before his mouth can express them. Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually disputing that you have to actually think of a lie before you can articulate it, but thanks for the straw man retort. In my view his choice to take photos during a lethal crisis and especially to then sell those photos for fame and profit after the fact was a much stronger piece of evidence for me.

It's impossible to dispute a point that's only purpose is to disagree.

Now, is it possible that he only thought of that after the fact? Sure! But regardless of whether he thought of that as a cover story or if he really was thinking of it at the time of the incident, I am sure that he thought of it! He told us so on live TV!

That’s not really the same thing is it? In one case he’s frantically trying to save someone else’s life. In the other case he’s frantically trying to save his own honor after financially benefiting from the death of a stranger. Maybe to you that’s an irrelevant consideration but to me those are two entirely different situations that speak volumes about what sort of character Mr. Abbasi is likely to be.

It is in the context that I used the words "I'm sure". Yes, in your world that's not good enough, I understand. Sorry!

Waving your arms frantically might get the operator's attention.

Not a chance! Unlikely that the operator would have seen waving arms that far away. Subway stations are nearly 2 blocks long. Waving & flashing lights would be far more effective in this case.

(1) Which appendage is doing the waving in your example?

Huh?

I was looking for “arms” here, just like I had suggested. I even posted video of people doing exactly as I described whereby the subway is able to stop early and actually save a life. I guess in your view that kind of general advice is worthless because every station is so incredibly different from one another.

Look, I'm not saying that waving one's arms might not help. But if we're playing the odds game here on that platform, which I've been on many times unlike you, there is maybe a 40% to 50% chance that waving one's arms is going to alert the operator to a problem. Those number go down the further you are from the end of the platform where the train is entering from and the more crowded the platform is with people.

With a flash light, or a flashing light like from a camera, the odds increase to around 90% that you are going to attract the attention of the operator.

So if you're standing on the platform with nothing on you, then fine start waving your arms wildly as you run down the platform towards the oncoming train. But if you have a camera, then start taking pictures with flash as fast as possible.

 

[AlanB]

I've personally seen TO's move their hand to hover over the mushroom simple because someone took a flash photo of a train entering the station. A few even backed off on the power just in case.

Too bad correlation does not imply causation or you’d be a genius.

To bad you can't ever have a conversation where you don't try to pick apart everything for absolutely no reason!

Yes, it is possible that the flashes made things worse for the already confused victim. No one will ever know in this case.

Well, unless Mr. Abbasi goes on live television to say the victim was unaffected by his photographs. At which point one of us may suddenly be sure it must be true.

Non sequitur! The best way to save Mr. Han's life is to stop that train! Not put your own life in danger or worry about whether or not a flash might distract an already panicked person who is probably operating on so much adrenaline that no flash would ever matter.

(3) Does seeing no benefit whatsoever change your mind about the futility of using a generic camera flash to signal the operator?

There is no futility here; except maybe in explaining things to you. Sorry!

Sorry you're having a difficult time explaining your mind reading abilities to a non-believer.

I'm having no difficulties at all. You just don't seem to wish to accept the fact that you don't know what you're talking about in this case.

 

[AlanB]

His ability to ready his camera, steady the frame, and focus the lens implies he wasn't frozen by confusion and concern like the victim may have been.

I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of thought needed to take the picture.

A sloppy split second picture of a stationary object in bright sunlight is easy and quick. A well cropped crystal clear picture of a moving subway in a poorly lit cavern is an entirely different situation in my experience. Then again maybe my DSLR isn't nearly as advanced and sophisticated as Alan's amazing phone camera.

Again, you're speaking without local knowledge of the situation. Yes, there are still some "poorly lit" subway stations, although most have been fixed over the years. The 49th Street Station where this accident happened, is a decently lit subway station. And as the guest Photog noted, the cropping would have been done by the paper, not the photographer.

Again, I could probably have shot that same shot with my iPhone and with a little gussying up by the paper's graphic's team it would have looked just as good.

I can't say I would have the presence of mind to do much of anything if I were in the same situation (which is why I asked questions about how to avoid getting injured if you end up on the tracks upthread), but if I end up with a picture of a newsworthy event such as that one, I don't see where it's immoral to make it available. It's an absolutely tragic picture knowing what's about to happen, but I'm not sure why you're railing against it being published.

There's nothing immoral about making it available to the investigators and allowing them to release it as a public service for free. Apparently Mr. Abbasi thought he'd get some sort of hero's welcome for selling his photos of the victim to the NY Post and is disappointed to be met with criticism instead. Maybe in New York he's still a hero no matter what he did, but where I come from you don't attempt to take any credit for a life you never managed to save in the first place.

Maybe you didn't notice, but he's not taking credit for a life! He took credit for trying to save that life and he took a picture. But he didn't take credit for anyone's life!

Heck, who knows, maybe the extra publicity on the story because of the picture being published help lead to the killer being caught?

I guess I missed the photo Mr. Abbasi took of the perpetrator who pushed Mr. Ki Suk Han onto the tracks and then sold to the NY Post. What a brave man Mr. Abbasi was to go out on a limb and risk his own life through retribution in order to bring a dangerous killer to justice.

Yes, apparently because you're speaking from Texas, you did miss that. To my knowledge, from the reports that I've seen, several people including Mr. Abbasi turned over photos & even a video both to the police and to newpapers/news stations.

 

[AlanB]

To pretend that this photo was cropped or adjusted after the fact but before publication is crazy.

No, pushing a man off a platform to his sudden and horrific death is crazy. I'm merely pointing out what I see as a rather immoral man pretending to be some sort of clueless bystander who just barely missed becoming a hero after his illogical scheme to prevent harm by photographing it failed to have the (supposedly) desired impact.

His scheme was only illogical to you. Once again, THE BEST WAY TO ATTRACT THE ATTENTION OF A SUBWAY TRAIN'S MOTORMAN IS TO FLASH A LIGHT.

 

[fairviewroad]

I think it's time someone pushed this entire thread in front of a moving train. :blush:

 

[Ryan]

Only if I'm allowed to take a picture of it afterwards.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So you take this picture. Word gets out that you have it, and people call you and offer you money for the picture. And you're going to claim that the correct response is "Sorry, no. I won't take your money for this, but I'll give it to you for free since I wasn't in any danger when I took it." Riiiiiiight.

I would never give anything to nor assist any Rupert Murdoch tabloid with anything, including this.

No, I'm not buying the "tried to warn the train" story.

That’s really all I needed to hear myself.

It's impossible to dispute a point that's only purpose is to disagree. [Too] bad you can't ever have a conversation where you don't try to pick apart everything for absolutely no reason!

The feeling is mutual?

 

[TimePeace]

Texas you lost all credibility when you posted the photo that you are so harshly critical of. It is nice to have you on ignore.

It is clear that you do not know nearly as much as you think you do and you prove that again and again.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Texas you lost all credibility when you posted the photo that you are so harshly critical of. It is nice to have you on ignore. It is clear that you do not know nearly as much as you think you do and you prove that again and again.

Your ignore setting appears to be broken. Or maybe you just don't understand the intended purpose. Or perhaps you just can't help reading my posts anyway. Whatever the case, so be it. I may disagree with Alan on nearly everything, but at least he's able to articulate his positions and explain his conclusions. Readers are free to choose his positions over mine if they think they make more sense or were worded nicer or whatever. They're also free to come up with their own conclusions and variations as they see fit. As for your position specifically, it honestly makes no difference to me what you think since you can't even be bothered to present a countervailing theory before running away with your fingers stuck in your ears.

 

[PVDtoGO]

Please stop

 

[Blackwolf]

It's happened again. Another seemingly homeless mentally disturbed individual is the culprit again too.

Man Pushed Beneath NYC Subway

 

[AlanB]

They don't yet know if the women who did the pushing is homeless or not. In fact, at present they know very little about her.

The #7 is my home line, so I know it very well and in fact have gotten off at the 40th Street/Lowery stop many times to shop in the area and visit friends near that stop.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Hopefully no photo for people to go berzerk about this time.

 

[cpamtfan]

I was at the station tonight. The usual, "They should put up gates!" debate returned yet again. I swear these are the same people who complain about their taxes being too high. Just get your faces out of your electronic devices and use your brains instead of bubblewrapping the world.

 

[AlanB]

Hah, NBC News channel 4 interviewed a guy who said that they should slow down the trains to 15 MPH as they enter the station so that they could stop in time. Clearly he has no clue about physics, since anything over about 2 MPH would still mean certain death if pushed at the last minute. And entering any station at that speed would essentially cut the subway systems capacity by at least 2/3rds, if not more.

On a related note, the Second Avenue subway was supposed to have barriers both for safety and to keep air conditioning on the platforms, but that got cut to keep down the costs.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I read on here about a group in California that wanted caltrain to run at no faster then 5MPH for the whole route to prevent teen suicides.

 

[Amtrak Cajun]

This is just sad. My heart goes out to everyone involved, the victims, and their families.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Hopefully no photo for people to go berzerk about this time.

Do you really want to start this discussion all over again?

1. Taking photos of grisly murder victim = so be it.

2. Selling photos of grisly murder victim = sad but expected.

3. Selling photos of grisly murder victim followed by claiming you were trying to help save a life by taking photos of the carnage = WTF?!

4. It didn't save the life in question. It had no reasonable expectation of saving said life. If it ever does save a life feel free to let me know.

5. Anything else you'd like to dig up while you're at it?