Maricopa to Phoenix Service

[AlaskanPrincess]

NOTE THAT THIS THREAD WAS SPLIT FROM AN 8+ YEAR OLD THREAD!

The original (2005) post in this thread was 'Why doesn't Amtrak provide bus or shuttle service from Maricopa to Phoenix'. I was considering Amtrak to Phoenix and discovered that service ended in 1995, and that destination was rerouted to Maricopa. A few replies offered valid suggestions, many were just off topic. (In this forum, I don't care about John McCain's comments - unless he's commented on how to get from Maricopa to Phoenix - or where Bristol Palin lives - nor do I understand why it's anyone's business to question or be critical of how someone has chosen to travel. And I really don't get all the go to Tucson comments...)

So, I've spent a fair amount of time looking for a way to get from Maricopa Amtrak Station to Phoenix (first option under consideration is Sky Harbor): I can't find White's Shuttle so have concluded they are no longer in business. Maricopa Express service is limited to within Maricopa city limits. Amtrak, of course, still does NOT offer bus, shuttle, or 'thru-ticketing' from Maricopa to Phoenix. I don't know why Phoenix 'lost' Amtrak, but Amtrak's decision to relocate to Maricopa is ridiculous...unless they did it to DECREASE business. (They should have required transportation service between Maricopa and Phoenix transportation hubs BEFORE relocating, and made that a part of contract/s....with fines and penalties for non-compliance). So, the most logical route (for me) to Flagstaff is via Phoenix. Amtrak would have worked (probably well) IF I could have found a way to get from Maricopa to Phoenix. If anyone is aware of a reasonably priced mode to get from Maricopa to Phoenix, please post!

 

[rusty spike]

I don't know why Phoenix 'lost' Amtrak, but Amtrak's decision to relocate to Maricopa is ridiculous...unless they did it to DECREASE business. (They should have required transportation service between Maricopa and Phoenix transportation hubs BEFORE relocating, and made that a part of contract/s....with fines and penalties for non-compliance).

Phoenix didn't lose Amtrak service. The rail lilne is owned and hosted by Union Pacific RR who truncated it at Phoenix, cutting all thru rail traffic west of Phoenix.

AFIK, there is still no "reasonably priced mode to get from Maricopa to Phoenix", if you excluide taxis from that list.

Anyway, enyoyed your rant about the 8-year-old thread to which you posted. :hi:

 

[the_traveler]

I agree with Rusty Spike. Except for the NEC and some track In MI, all Amtrak trains operate on tracks owned and operated by freight railroads. :excl:

If Union Pacific decided to tear up the tracks in El Paso, Little Rock, Reno or Emeryville, no Amtrak trains could run there. If BNSF decided to tear up the tracks in Flagstaff or Havre, no Amtrak trains could run there either. If CSX decided to tear up their tracks in Syracuse, no Amtrak trains could run there. If Norfolk Southern decided to tear up their tracks in Pittsburgh, Atlanta or Birmingham, AL, no Amtrak trains could run there.. Etc, etc, etc...

Unless Amtrak actually owns the tracks, they have to go by what the owners say. That, and only that, is why there is no Amtrak train service into Phoenix. If you personally want to buy that portion and spend $xxx Million to upgrade that line and then pay $xxx Million a year to keep it up to passenger train standards, I'm sure UP would sell that line to you - and then Phoenix could have Amtrak service again!

 

[DET63]

And I really don't get all the go to Tucson comments...

Because it may be much easier to arrange transportation, either by bus or rental car, from Tucson than from Maricopa, even if the latter is much closer to Phoenix.

Why did UP tear up its tracks west of Phoenix? Did it find it was not cost-effective to maintain them? If so, we have to remember that UP ultimately answers not to Amtrak, Amtrak passengers, or anyone else but its stockholders, who want the company to turn the biggest profit and thus return the biggest dividend to them. UP's practices toward Amtrak may simply reflect what it considers good business on its part: moving goods (i.e., freight, not passengers) in the most economical fashion possible.

 

[MikefromCrete]

UP had no use for the west line out of Phoenix. Local freight traffic could be routed into the city from the east. The main UP line (also used by the Sunset) is located south of Phoenix. An effort to franchise a bus connector apparently failed because of the tri-weekly service. Somebody would have to buy and fix up the west line into Phoenix to bring passenger service back to the city. Arizona doesn't seem interested, although a service connecting Tucson and Phoenix would seem possible. All it takes is money and somebody willing and able to spend it.

 

[the_traveler]

AFAIK, the tracks are still there, but there is no businesses (shippers) on that portion and thus UP discontinued service and maintenance of that portion west of Phoenix. Portions of the line is in such disrepair, the speed limit is below 20 MPH (well belly passenger standards). And 20 MPH on those sections would be pushing it!

 

[rusty spike]

AFAIK, the tracks are still there, but there is no businesses (shippers) on that portion and thus UP discontinued service and maintenance of that portion west of Phoenix. Portions of the line is in such disrepair, the speed limit is below 20 MPH (well belly passenger standards). And 20 MPH on those sections would be pushing it!

The "west" line is indeed stll intact; UP has been storing unneeded freight cars on a portion of it. I believe the only shippers left out there are around Buckeye, AZ, Beyond that, it's literally a parking lot.

All it takes is money and somebody willing and able to spend it.

Amen. :excl:

 

[Aaron]

Why did UP tear up its tracks west of Phoenix? Did it find it was not cost-effective to maintain them?

Yep. Any freight that's going to Phoenix can just branch off the mainline at Picacho SE of Phoenix. They don't need to go "through" Phoenix to get freight "to" Phoenix. And the tracks aren't actually torn up, just not maintained. UP uses that stretch for long term storage of cars they aren't using. As far as it ever coming back, there are two scenarios possible there. One is that Arizona buys it or just puts up the money for maintenance, motivated by a desire to see it returned to passenger service. Another possible scenario is that Phoenix industry grows so far to the west that UP decides on its own that it's more economical to renew that sub to bring freight to the mainline rather than sending it through Picacho. UP is in the process of renewing a whole bunch of track as far west as Buckeye because of the growth out there, but it would probably be decades before growth moved far enough west that this whole line starts looking attractive again.

Here's some information about that stretch: http://www.abandonedrails.com/Roll_to_Arlington

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I don't know why Phoenix 'lost' Amtrak, but Amtrak's decision to relocate to Maricopa is ridiculous...unless they did it to DECREASE business. (They should have required transportation service between Maricopa and Phoenix transportation hubs BEFORE relocating, and made that a part of contract/s....with fines and penalties for non-compliance).

LOL!

 

[Amtrak George]

On October 9, 1995, the Sunset Limited derailed west of Phoenix due to sabotage (perpetrators were never caught) in an example of track tampering that positive train control probably would not have prevented. IIRC, there were no other trains plying the route at the time other that the triweekly Sunset. It would be great to serve Phoenix again, but it is risky (not to mention expensive) when there are absolutely no other trains running a route.

 

[George Harris]

I may have written this or most of this before.:

The Phoenix Subdivision nominally runs between Wellton and Picacho. Both of these are little more than points on the railroad with little or no population. The Line West was not built until 1926, based on information I have seen elsewhere. (I can't say first hand. I was not around at that time.)

The line west never was much of a freight line. Its main purpose was to allow through passenger service between points east and Los Angeles to serve Phoenix. The following is from 2007, but is probably not much different today unless UP has decided to abandon part of it. That I would regard as unlikely as that would be giving up their access to this area which they would not likely be willing to do. Unless Arizona has high property taxes it costs them almost nothing to keep the parts they are not using.

I don't have the milepost location for Phoenix passenger station at hand, but the Phoenix Yard is at milepost 907.0.

Going from West to East:

First we have the "Roll Industrial Lead", mileposts 770.7 to 802.8, speed limit 20 mph.

"Main track out of service" milepost 802.8 to 854.0

854.0 to 904.8: 25 mph. The 25 mph may be mostly theoretical, as there are likely numerous 10 mph slow orders if traffic is negligible.

904.8 to 905.6: 20 mph

905.6 to 906.7: 15 mph

906.7 to 907.9: 20 mph

907.9 to 913.6: 25 mph

913.6 to 916.5: 20 mph

East of this point the speed limit is for the most part 40 mph to 60 mph the remainder of the way to Picacho, which is as milepost 979.7.

The block signal system is nominally still functional, but that is more because it requires government permission to shut it down than because it is either needed or even maintained in a functional condition.

Unless someone has enough money laying around to essentially rebuild 140 miles of railroad, through passenger trains are not coming back to Phoenix.

 

[George Harris]

On October 9, 1995, the Sunset Limited derailed west of Phoenix due to sabotage (perpetrators were never caught) in an example of track tampering that positive train control probably would not have prevented. IIRC, there were no other trains plying the route at the time other that the triweekly Sunset. It would be great to serve Phoenix again, but it is risky (not to mention expensive) when there are absolutely no other trains running a route.

The track tampering done required a certain amount of knowledge of how to work with track and how signal systems work, but that would reduce the list of suspects down to only a few million people. It would not have been possible with track built to current standards (welded rail, etc.) Well, maybe not impossible but at the least much more difficult and would have taken longer to do.

(The pronouncements of the requirements to be a potential suspect for the perps behind this derailment were almost as silly as the pronouncement decribing the characteristics of the perpertrator behind the Oklahoma City bomber: A person or persons with access to diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate in quantity who was unhappy with the government's handling of the situations at Ruby Ridge and Waco. That one probably described somewhere well above half the population of rural America.)

 

[railiner]

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know if the Santa Fe route from Phoenix to California via Parker is still in use, and what kind of shape is it in?

 

[Nathanael]

So, the most logical route (for me) to Flagstaff is via Phoenix. Amtrak would have worked (probably well) IF I could have found a way to get from Maricopa to Phoenix. If anyone is aware of a reasonably priced mode to get from Maricopa to Phoenix, please post!

I really wonder where the OP was starting from. After all, Flagstaff is actually on an Amtrak line....

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know if the Santa Fe route from Phoenix to California via Parker is still in use, and what kind of shape is it in?

It's mostly a shortline called the "Arizona and California Railroad". I've suggested resurrecting that route myself. At least all of it is in service, albeit with very low speed limits.

I agree with Rusty Spike. Except for the NEC and some track In MI, all Amtrak trains operate on tracks owned and operated by freight railroads. :excl:

For completeness, Amtrak also controls also some significant non-NEC chunks of track in CT and PA. And as of quite recently, NY... and half a bridge in Canada (the other half is in NY). Also some very short sections around Union Station in Chicago, New Orleans, Albany NY, and maybe a couple of other stations. I believe that's it except for maintenance facilities.
State governments and public "commuter railroad" authorities own or operate a few other sections in Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Michigan, Illinois, North Carolina, Florida, New Mexico, and California. They also have Amtrak at their mercy, but tend to have a pro-passenger-rail agenda.

If Union Pacific decided to tear up the tracks in El Paso, Little Rock, Reno or Emeryville, no Amtrak trains could run there. If BNSF decided to tear up the tracks in Flagstaff or Havre, no Amtrak trains could run there either. If CSX decided to tear up their tracks in Syracuse, no Amtrak trains could run there. If Norfolk Southern decided to tear up their tracks in Pittsburgh, Atlanta or Birmingham, AL, no Amtrak trains could run there.. Etc, etc, etc...

Yes. Of course any such action would require STB approval; state and local governments would be given a chance to intervene. I don't think they'd get approval in Syracuse or Pittsburgh, where the state governments would probably intervene to buy the tracks.
The difference is, in Arizona the state government didn't give a damn, and the City of Phoenix wasn't offering to buy the tracks either, and neither was anyone else. The local lobbying group tried to convince the state and city governments to care, but failed.

 

[George Harris]

The difference is, in Arizona the state government didn't give a damn, and the City of Phoenix wasn't offering to buy the tracks either, and neither was anyone else. The local lobbying group tried to convince the state and city governments to care, but failed.

A couple hundred million dollars for a three times per week train? It would be hard to get that close enough to the top of anybody's list of priorities to actually happen.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The difference is, in Arizona the state government didn't give a damn, and the City of Phoenix wasn't offering to buy the tracks either, and neither was anyone else. The local lobbying group tried to convince the state and city governments to care, but failed.

A couple hundred million dollars for a three times per week train? It would be hard to get that close enough to the top of anybody's list of priorities to actually happen.

I've thought about this a bit and I don't think having a daily train would change this equation much, at least not in a state that's known for their more conservative agenda.

 

[rusty spike]

The difference is, in Arizona the state government didn't give a damn, and the City of Phoenix wasn't offering to buy the tracks either, and neither was anyone else. The local lobbying group tried to convince the state and city governments to care, but failed.

A couple hundred million dollars for a three times per week train? It would be hard to get that close enough to the top of anybody's list of priorities to actually happen.

I've thought about this a bit and I don't think having a daily train would change this equation much, at least not in a state that's known for their more conservative agenda.

Where there is one-train (or less) each way per day, Amtrak has to run on the maintained tracks of host railroads. Taxpayers aren't willing to spend "a couple hundred million dollars" to acquire 140 miles trackage to support limited use by Amtrak, (note: SWC through western Kansas, CO and northern NM). It's not about "state govenment didn't give a damn" The solution is a dedicated PHX-MRC shuttle.

 

[henryj]

http://maricopashuttle.com/ Use the Maricopa shuttle service. It's $50 and you reserve it 24hrs in advance. That's the going price. The Super shuttle in Houston is about the same.

 

[zephyr17]

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know if the Santa Fe route from Phoenix to California via Parker is still in use, and what kind of shape is it in?

It is still there, owned by a shortline (Arizona & California reporting mark ARZC) from Mattie, near Wickenburg, AZ (jct with BNSF Peavine) to Cadiz (jct with BNSF Transcon, near Amboy, CA). It is in good shape for what it is, but it has never been a super fast railroad. It is all dark.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The difference is, in Arizona the state government didn't give a damn, and the City of Phoenix wasn't offering to buy the tracks either, and neither was anyone else. The local lobbying group tried to convince the state and city governments to care, but failed.

A couple hundred million dollars for a three times per week train? It would be hard to get that close enough to the top of anybody's list of priorities to actually happen.

I've thought about this a bit and I don't think having a daily train would change this equation much, at least not in a state that's known for their more conservative agenda.

Where there is one-train (or less) each way per day, Amtrak has to run on the maintained tracks of host railroads. Taxpayers aren't willing to spend "a couple hundred million dollars" to acquire 140 miles trackage to support limited use by Amtrak, (note: SWC through western Kansas, CO and northern NM). It's not about "state govenment didn't give a damn" The solution is a dedicated PHX-MRC shuttle.

OK, so who is going to pay for the shuttle? When you elect a zero tolerance government you end up with zero options. Thus we have no direct access and no shuttle.

 

[user 1215]

The difference is, in Arizona the state government didn't give a damn, and the City of Phoenix wasn't offering to buy the tracks either, and neither was anyone else. The local lobbying group tried to convince the state and city governments to care, but failed.

A couple hundred million dollars for a three times per week train? It would be hard to get that close enough to the top of anybody's list of priorities to actually happen.

I've thought about this a bit and I don't think having a daily train would change this equation much, at least not in a state that's known for their more conservative agenda.

Where there is one-train (or less) each way per day, Amtrak has to run on the maintained tracks of host railroads. Taxpayers aren't willing to spend "a couple hundred million dollars" to acquire 140 miles trackage to support limited use by Amtrak, (note: SWC through western Kansas, CO and northern NM). It's not about "state govenment didn't give a damn" The solution is a dedicated PHX-MRC shuttle.

OK, so who is going to pay for the shuttle? When you elect a zero tolerance government you end up with zero options. Thus we have no direct access and no shuttle.

The government has (or shouldn't have) anything to do with this.

Cost vs Return.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

http://maricopashuttle.com/ Use the Maricopa shuttle service. It's $50 and you reserve it 24hrs in advance. That's the going price. The Super shuttle in Houston is about the same.

Is that $50 each way?

Even if it's round trip by the time you add up the taxi fees in San Antonio and shuttle fees in Maricopa you'd be $100 in the hole before you even called Amtrak.

Maybe Amtrak should take the hint and stop serving Maricopa altogether. I don't want my taxes forcing passenger rail on people who only see it as a nuisance.

 

[henryj]

http://maricopashuttle.com/ Use the Maricopa shuttle service. It's $50 and you reserve it 24hrs in advance. That's the going price. The Super shuttle in Houston is about the same.

Is that $50 each way?

Even if it's round trip by the time you add up the taxi fees in San Antonio and shuttle fees in Maricopa you'd be $100 in the hole before you even called Amtrak.

Maybe Amtrak should take the hint and stop serving Maricopa altogether. I don't want my taxes forcing passenger rail on people who only see it as a nuisance.

I guess you never took a cab or Super Shuttle to the Airport. That's what they cost. That's why I usually take my car and just pay to park it out there. Maricopa is 35 miles from downtown Phoenix. I think the train from London's Gatwick airport to downtown was something like $20...one way. Gatwick express now advertises 19.90 pounds one way. That's around $30. It's cheaper to just rent a car. You are correct, taxi and shuttle fare would be more than the train fare which is $117 one way SAS to Maricopa. lol.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

http://maricopashuttle.com/ Use the Maricopa shuttle service. It's $50 and you reserve it 24hrs in advance. That's the going price. The Super shuttle in Houston is about the same.

Is that $50 each way?

Even if it's round trip by the time you add up the taxi fees in San Antonio and shuttle fees in Maricopa you'd be $100 in the hole before you even called Amtrak.

Maybe Amtrak should take the hint and stop serving Maricopa altogether. I don't want my taxes forcing passenger rail on people who only see it as a nuisance.

I guess you never took a cab or Super Shuttle to the Airport. That's what they cost. That's why I usually take my car and just pay to park it out there. Maricopa is 35 miles from downtown Phoenix. I think the train from London's Gatwick airport to downtown was something like $20...one way. Gatwick express now advertises 19.90 pounds one way. That's around $30. It's cheaper to just rent a car. You are correct, taxi and shuttle fare would be more than the train fare which is $117 one way SAS to Maricopa. lol.

In the US I often just give up and rent a car. We seem to build many of our cities in a careless fashion that penalizes pedestrians, either because everything is too spread out to reach easily or because everything within a safe and easy walking distance is too steeply priced. Renting cars can be simple and easy if you're flexible with scheduling and willing to shop around. If you play your cards right a full day with your own car can cost substantially less than a single taxi or shuttle ride. Although I doubt this is much of an option in a stepping stone town like Maricopa. I'm not a fan of the taxi mafia myself and I put my time where my mouth is by offering airport rides to just about anyone. I'd do the same for Amtrak except most folks I know can't add days worth of additional traveling into their limited vacation schedules. Taxis and shuttles have all sorts of protections from price based competition so I do whatever I can to undermine their stranglehold.

That being said I'm not seeing much of a connection between Maricopa and Gatwick. I'd suspect the percentage of British citizens who have never heard of Gatwick to be less than 5% while the percentage of Americans who have never heard of Maricopa is probably more like 95%. Not to mention that nobody in their right mind would ever confuse Phoenix with London. In fact I'd be hard pressed to think of two cities with a starker contrast between them. I expect to be gouged in London, same as anyone else who visits there. On the other hand I do not expect and will not tolerate being gouged while visiting a bloated resource-starved web of soulless suburbs like Phoenix. I'd say Phoenix could go to hell were it not for the fact it's already half way there. Phoenix isn't the kind of destination that leaves you wanting more. Phoenix is the kind of destination that makes you feel grateful for what you already have at home.

 

[George Harris]

Where there is one-train (or less) each way per day, Amtrak has to run on the maintained tracks of host railroads. Taxpayers aren't willing to spend "a couple hundred million dollars" to acquire 140 miles trackage to support limited use by Amtrak, (note: SWC through western Kansas, CO and northern NM). It's not about "state govenment didn't give a damn" The solution is a dedicated PHX-MRC shuttle.

???? "One train or less" has nothing to do with whether or not Amtrak owns the track. There are plently of locations where Amtrak runs more than one train each way a day on tracks that they do not own. Ignoring the lines hosting state supported trains and there are several of those, the CSX line between Washington DC and Miami is the first one that comes to mind.

BNSF owns the most of the rest of the route used by the Southwest Chief, not just the parts where there is very little other traffic on the line.