MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority) discussion

[Fenway]

Why do they lie? They won't really impress people who don't understand measurements, and they totally PO people who do.

The 'lie' is that Governor Baker was not told about the issue. That might be true but Karyn Polito who was his Lieutenant Governor most likely did.

What I am certain of is Governor Baker wanted to cut the ribbon when GLX opened last year and everyone in the chain of command knew that.



Buried in all of this is the CRRC subway car fiasco.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10/24/metro/after-big-subway-troubles-mbtas-oversight-board-meets/

Also still way behind schedule is the delivery of the long-awaited new Red and Orange line cars from CRRC, the Chinese firm building the rail cars at a factory in Springfield.

Eng said the T has received just 94 of the 152 Orange Line cars it ordered in 2014 and only 14 of the 252 Red Line cars it ordered in 2014 and 2017. This is an increase of only 16 Orange Line cars and two Red Line cars since January, according to the T.

The original contract called for CRRC to deliver eight new cars to the T per month. In February, the T said it was working with CRRC to try to get four new cars delivered per month. All new Orange Line cars were originally supposed to be delivered by January 2022 and all new Red Line cars by September 2023, according to the T. Both those dates are now in the past.

The MBTA system saw around 385,000 weekday subway trips and 312,000 bus trips last month, just around 50 percent and 76 percent, respectively, of the weekday trips taken on those modes in September 2019.

CRRC may be on the hook for delay fees, Eng said.

“There are liquidated damages that are being accrued as a result of the schedule,” Eng said. “The importance of these cars to our ability to provide service are vital . . . Right now my focus is to actually get these cars continuing to come to us, to maintain the quality that we’ve been seeing, but also find a way to increase production.”

On a personal note

My Senior Charlie Card expired and I went to the Charlie Card store at Downtown Crossing for a new one. The process was quick as they no longer bother to put a photo on the card AND I have no clue when the card will expire.



I am just tired of the transit system I grew up with becoming a laughingstock - It was never perfect but it was reliable.

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

The 'lie' is that Governor Baker was not told about the issue. That might be true but Karyn Polito who was his Lieutenant Governor most likely did.

What I am certain of is Governor Baker wanted to cut the ribbon when GLX opened last year and everyone in the chain of command knew that.



Buried in all of this is the CRRC subway car fiasco.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10/24/metro/after-big-subway-troubles-mbtas-oversight-board-meets/


On a personal note

My Senior Charlie Card expired and I went to the Charlie Card store at Downtown Crossing for a new one. The process was quick as they no longer bother to put a photo on the card AND I have no clue when the card will expire.

View attachment 34351View attachment 34350

I am just tired of the transit system I grew up with becoming a laughingstock - It was never perfect but it was reliable.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/10/22/healey-says-no-sign-baker-knew-of-green-line-problems/
Healey says no sign Baker knew of Green Line problems

According to the governor, as far as she can tell, problems with the Green Line Extension project apparently known to high level former MBTA officials were not brought to the attention of her predecessor.

 

[Fenway]

https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/10/22/healey-says-no-sign-baker-knew-of-green-line-problems/
Healey says no sign Baker knew of Green Line problems

According to the governor, as far as she can tell, problems with the Green Line Extension project apparently known to high level former MBTA officials were not brought to the attention of her predecessor.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/10/22/healey-says-no-sign-baker-knew-of-green-line-problems/
Healey says no sign Baker knew of Green Line problems

According to the governor, as far as she can tell, problems with the Green Line Extension project apparently known to high level former MBTA officials were not brought to the attention of her predecessor.

I think Healey is playing it safe for now

Baker DIDN'T want to know anything about the MBTA and his chain of command knew that - He only acted when the Orange Line fire happened in 2022 but by then he had announced he was not running again.

The CRRC debacle was a Richard Davey brainstorm and in fairness back in 2014 the deal had merits but the international political tradewinds have changed and the Chinese no longer have any incentive to complete the contract.

I fear things are just going to get worse.

 

[Tlcooper44]

I think there isn't much of a point to making blank statements about the knowledge of administrations or various people within said administrations - furthermore, it doesn't really matter now. I'm not convinced Healy would behave any differently than her predecessors.

The problems plaguing the MBTA or even the GLX go far beyond any single administration or governor.

 

[John Santos]

Another forum says the repair involves pulling up the spikes and filling the holes with epoxy before re-spiking, and it's a standard process. There's a track machine that does the epoxy job. I've never considered that when re-positioning a door jamb strike plate, so that's good to know. I would have though wood and rigid epoxy were too dissimilar.

The lying may have been in the record keeping over time. One of the managers said it was always tight. George Harris a few posts up has a good explanation of bad plate placement at the manufacturer.

Whoever was in the video should have said Charlie Card, not credit card! I looked up the thickness of a credit card, probably the same. It's 0.76mm, or just shy of 1/64".

I have one more theory: the tightness caused some spikes to loosen, then rock back due to rail forces from adjacent tie plates. That might account for measurement inconsistencies over time, even narrowing? They should epoxy both sides if so. I've been wrong before, on this very thread!

According to many articles in the Boston Globe, local news reports and an article in Trains, the plates are held in place with bolts, not spikes, but your description of the repair is otherwise accurate, as far as I know. ("Bolts" would imply threaded holes in the wooden ties, which seems unlikely, or they would have to lift the ties up to insert a bolt up from the bottom or a washer and nut under the hole, so there is obviously more to this than is described in the media.) Maybe the replacement process actually involves completely removing the ties to drill new holes and attach the plates in the correct place.

Charlie Cards come in two varieties, paper ones with a magnetic stripe for limited use (which may not still be available and I don't think could be recharged with more money) and plastic cards exactly the same size and shape as standard credit cards, which I think have an RFID chip embedded in them.

My Charlie Card is about 1mm thick, or 1/25". The rails are off by many times this much. The ALLOWED variation is +- 1/16", but the rails are off by at least 6 times that much, 3/8" triggers a 3 MPH slow zone and there were dozens of such places. The lie I was referring to was the claim that they were only off by the thickness of a credit card.

Old Bostonians may be familiar with Bob and Ray, who were on the local radio in the 1950's. They had one bit where they were interviewing "a person in the news." The guy was a truck driver (actually Ray, I think) who was in the papers because his truck had gotten stuck under one of the notorious low bridges on Storrow Drive. Bob asked him how it happened, and he replied "Life is a matter of fractions of inches. You know how a baseball player swings at ball and he pops it up to make the out that ends the game or he swings a fraction of an inch higher and hits a home run and is the hero? Same with me!" And so Bob asks him how high the bridge was and he says "Eleven feet four inches", and "How tall is your truck?" "Fourteen feet."

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

I looked up the thickness of a credit card, probably the same. It's 0.76mm, or just shy of 1/64".

My Charlie Card is about 1mm thick, or 1/25". The rails are off by many times this much. The ALLOWED variation is +- 1/16", but the rails are off by at least 6 times that much, 3/8" triggers a 3 MPH slow zone and there were dozens of such places. The lie I was referring to was the claim that they were only off by the thickness of a credit card.

Old Bostonians may be familiar with Bob and Ray, who were on the local radio in the 1950's. They had one bit where they were interviewing "a person in the news." The guy was a truck driver (actually Ray, I think) who was in the papers because his truck had gotten stuck under one of the notorious low bridges on Storrow Drive. Bob asked him how it happened, and he replied "Life is a matter of fractions of inches. You know how a baseball player swings at ball and he pops it up to make the out that ends the game or he swings a fraction of an inch higher and hits a home run and is the hero? Same with me!" And so Bob asks him how high the bridge was and he says "Eleven feet four inches", and "How tall is your truck?" "Fourteen feet."

That's a great story.

My math and common sense were off. Credit cards are 0.76mm, or just shy of 1/64" 1/32".

 

[Brian Battuello]

The tracks are too narrow, the catenaries are the wrong tension, what else could go wrong? Don't answer that....

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10...-equipment-overhead-power-system-t-chief-says

 

[Fenway]

WBZ-TV Boston

Jon Keller's guest this week is Brian Kane, a former MBTA official who is now the executive director of the MBTA advisory board.

 

[BlackDiamond]

WBZ-TV Boston

Jon Keller's guest this week is Brian Kane, a former MBTA official who is now the executive director of the MBTA advisory board.

Interesting. Sounds like Eng is on the right track but it will take time to change the culture both in the T as well as attitudes towards the T by state government. 30+ years of neglect will take time to be overcome.

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

According to many articles in the Boston Globe, local news reports and an article in Trains, the plates are held in place with bolts, not spikes, but your description of the repair is otherwise accurate, as far as I know. ("Bolts" would imply threaded holes in the wooden ties, which seems unlikely, or they would have to lift the ties up to insert a bolt up from the bottom or a washer and nut under the hole, so there is obviously more to this than is described in the media.) Maybe the replacement process actually involves completely removing the ties to drill new holes and attach the plates in the correct place.

Charlie Cards come in two varieties, paper ones with a magnetic stripe for limited use (which may not still be available and I don't think could be recharged with more money) and plastic cards exactly the same size and shape as standard credit cards, which I think have an RFID chip embedded in them.

My Charlie Card is about 1mm thick, or 1/25". The rails are off by many times this much. The ALLOWED variation is +- 1/16", but the rails are off by at least 6 times that much, 3/8" triggers a 3 MPH slow zone and there were dozens of such places. The lie I was referring to was the claim that they were only off by the thickness of a credit card.

Old Bostonians may be familiar with Bob and Ray, who were on the local radio in the 1950's. They had one bit where they were interviewing "a person in the news." The guy was a truck driver (actually Ray, I think) who was in the papers because his truck had gotten stuck under one of the notorious low bridges on Storrow Drive. Bob asked him how it happened, and he replied "Life is a matter of fractions of inches. You know how a baseball player swings at ball and he pops it up to make the out that ends the game or he swings a fraction of an inch higher and hits a home run and is the hero? Same with me!" And so Bob asks him how high the bridge was and he says "Eleven feet four inches", and "How tall is your truck?" "Fourteen feet."

Bob is Bob Elliott. He was the father of Chris Elliott from David Letterman and the show "Get a Life".

 

[Brian Battuello]

Re Keller at Large videos above. Glad they are talking about it but even the oversight guy had very little to say, other than it will take time. I'm willing to give them some time, but in the meantime I am still driving my spouse to MIT at 10am and then returning home. Otherwise she can't be sure she makes her 11am class. She rides home on the Red Line and I pick her up at Alewife. It has been *slightly* faster the last few weeks but still has frequent long stops.

I happened to ride the Red Line from South Station to Alewife last Friday right at rush hour, and the train only had a few standees. Apparently lots of other people are driving or making other arrangements.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Re Keller at Large videos above. Glad they are talking about it but even the oversight guy had very little to say, other than it will take time. I'm willing to give them some time, but in the meantime I am still driving my spouse to MIT at 10am and then returning home. Otherwise she can't be sure she makes her 11am class. She rides home on the Red Line and I pick her up at Alewife. It has been *slightly* faster the last few weeks but still has frequent long stops.

I happened to ride the Red Line from South Station to Alewife last Friday right at rush hour, and the train only had a few standees. Apparently lots of other people are driving or making other arrangements.

I've had mixed experiences on the Red Line - last saturday night was about a quarter full id say.

Two weeks ago was standing room only on saturday midday, no doubt due to 18 minute headways.

 

[George Harris]

According to many articles in the Boston Globe, local news reports and an article in Trains, the plates are held in place with bolts, not spikes, but your description of the repair is otherwise accurate, as far as I know. ("Bolts" would imply threaded holes in the wooden ties, which seems unlikely, or they would have to lift the ties up to insert a bolt up from the bottom or a washer and nut under the hole, so there is obviously more to this than is described in the media.) Maybe the replacement process actually involves completely removing the ties to drill new holes and attach the plates in the correct place.

The correct name is probably "screw spikes". Think a large wood screw. You do not through bolt to just hold down the rail or base plate to the ties. Completely overkill. So far as know, not done. Neither do you need to cut screw threads into the wood. Yes, drill a hole. Again, think a screw into a piece of wood where you drill a hole for the screw that is at or slightly smaller than the inside diameter of the threads in the screw. Now scale up. This is quite commonly used if you think there is a need to make a step up from the many years used tie plate on wood tie with square spikes (common name cut spikes) driven through holes in the plate that are adjacent to the base of the rail. A spike is not driven to be tight against the base of the rail. If it is, it will not stay that way. It will back out slightly or else the head will break off. The things that hold a track together are gravity and friction. If we are on wood ties and screw spikes are used, the most likely set up will be a steel plate held to the tie with the screw spikes and the plate being set up to fit a spring clip which will then bear against the base of the rail, both to hold it down and to keep it from sliding longitudinally. In standard track with cut spikes, longitudinal sliding is prevented by rail anchors, which are simply devices which clamp on the base of the rail. These are placed on both sides of the tie, usually every other tie being sufficient.

 

[Fenway]

Interesting. Sounds like Eng is on the right track but it will take time to change the culture both in the T as well as attitudes towards the T by state government. 30+ years of neglect will take time to be overcome.

Eng at least seems to be empowered to dismiss long-time T management officials which is a start.

 

[John Santos]

The correct name is probably "screw spikes". Think a large wood screw. You do not through bolt to just hold down the rail or base plate to the ties. Completely overkill. So far as know, not done. Neither do you need to cut screw threads into the wood. Yes, drill a hole. Again, think a screw into a piece of wood where you drill a hole for the screw that is at or slightly smaller than the inside diameter of the threads in the screw. Now scale up. This is quite commonly used if you think there is a need to make a step up from the many years used tie plate on wood tie with square spikes (common name cut spikes) driven through holes in the plate that are adjacent to the base of the rail. A spike is not driven to be tight against the base of the rail. If it is, it will not stay that way. It will back out slightly or else the head will break off. The things that hold a track together are gravity and friction. If we are on wood ties and screw spikes are used, the most likely set up will be a steel plate held to the tie with the screw spikes and the plate being set up to fit a spring clip which will then bear against the base of the rail, both to hold it down and to keep it from sliding longitudinally. In standard track with cut spikes, longitudinal sliding is prevented by rail anchors, which are simply devices which clamp on the base of the rail. These are placed on both sides of the tie, usually every other tie being sufficient.

Thanks for the info. I've always wondered what the things that look vaguely like C-clamps attached to the bottoms of the rails are.

 

[Fenway]

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news...slow-zone-speed-restrictions-on-subway-lines/

BOSTON - The MBTA says it has a plan to remove all of the slow zones on the subway system by next year.

General Manager Phillip Eng presented the agency's plan to end the speed restrictions at meeting of the MBTA Board's Safety Subcommittee Thursday morning.

Eng said there are currently a total of 191 slow zones. He hopes to remove 39 of them before end of this year. The remaining 152 will be phased out next year, the general manager told the subcommittee.

Eng said the Red and Green lines have the most speed restrictions. He called this a "pivotal time for the T."

"We realize this is a tremendous amount of work that we're trying to do in a tremendous amount of time. It's years and years of disinvestment that we are tackling in one year," Eng said. "But we also have an approach that is going to be different than past approaches."

 

[Brian Battuello]

Maybe the T should buy one of these machines:



And yes, I know the GLX has wooden ties...

 

[Fenway]

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news...slow-zone-speed-restrictions-on-subway-lines/

 

[George Harris]

My Charlie Card is about 1mm thick, or 1/25". The rails are off by many times this much. The ALLOWED variation is +- 1/16", but the rails are off by at least 6 times that much, 3/8" triggers a 3 MPH slow zone and there were dozens of such places. The lie I was referring to was the claim that they were only off by the thickness of a credit card.

"Being off by 3/8 inch triggers a 3 mph slow order" DO WHAT!!!
For a sanity check let's look at the CFR for railroad tracks. Yes, I know the regulations do not apply to transit line tracks not used by the railroad, and they are safety standards, not comfort standards. Usually streetcar tracks have to be to somewhat tighter standards because street car wheel treads are normally narrower than railroad wheel tread and flange depths are less, but 3/8 inch equals 3 mph? NOPE

Here are the FRA Safety Standards for track gauge as in the Code of Federal Regulations Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter II, Part 213. Gauge limits are defined based on standard 4'-8 1/2". I am going to just do the arithmetic and list them as under/over calling them tight/wide. Gauge variation is not the only thing defining track class, just the only thing I am listing here. These other factors are why the same gauge variation may apply to more than one class of track.

Class..Max Speed..Gauge Limits (Speed in miles per hour, gauge deviations in decimal inch.)
............... F.. /.. P........tight/wide
......1.......10 / 15........0.50 / 1.5
......2.......25 / 30........0.50 / 1.25
......3.......40 / 60........0.50 / 1.25
......4.......60 / 80........0.50 / 1.00
......5.......80 / 90........0.50 / 1.00
......6..........110............0.50 / 0.75
......7..........125............0.50 / 0.75
......8..........160............0.50 / 0.75
......9..........220............0.25 / 0.75

A 3/8 inch variation in gauge should trigger absolutely nothing. Maybe, just maybe because the wheel gauge to track gauge difference in street car wheels is slightly less than that in standard railroad wheels, a tight gauge of 3/8 inch might justify a 15 mph to 20 mph or so slow order, but if 3/8 inch wide, nothing.

 

[George Harris]

Maybe the T should buy one of these machines:



And yes, I know the GLX has wooden ties...

Pillow replacement? What was the original language of this video? Maybe thinking Britishism where a crosstie is called a sleeper, as this looks like a tie replacement operation. I can't get youtube videos to run, otherwise I could probably say for certain. This also gets around to why is MBTA sticking with wood ties on what appears to be viaduct and subway trackage. Should be direct fixation, that is rails on fasteners on concrete. There are other things about the track that I would never do, but I best say no more.

 

[west point]

Pillow replacement? What was the original language of this video? Maybe thinking Britishism where a crosstie is called a sleeper, as this looks like a tie replacement operation. I can't get youtube videos to run, otherwise I could probably say for certain. This also gets around to why is MBTA sticking with wood ties on what appears to be viaduct and subway trackage. Should be direct fixation, that is rails on fasteners on concrete. There are other things about the track that I would never do, but I best say no more.

That ballast sure looked needing to be cleaned!

 

[jis]

Pillow replacement? What was the original language of this video? Maybe thinking Britishism where a crosstie is called a sleeper, as this looks like a tie replacement operation. I can't get youtube videos to run, otherwise I could probably say for certain. This also gets around to why is MBTA sticking with wood ties on what appears to be viaduct and subway trackage. Should be direct fixation, that is rails on fasteners on concrete. There are other things about the track that I would never do, but I best say no more.

That ballast sure looked needing to be cleaned!

Yeah. It is concrete tie replacement and it is not on MBTA track AFAICT.

 

[George Harris]

That ballast sure looked needing to be cleaned!

Huh? Ballast looks good to me. No mud visible, no excessive fines.

By the way, definitely not MBTA, and I think not anywhere in North America, either.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Huh? Ballast looks good to me. No mud visible, no excessive fines.

By the way, definitely not MBTA, and I think not anywhere in North America, either.

Given the name of the person posting and some of his other videos I suspect China.

 

[John Santos]

"Being off by 3/8 inch triggers a 3 mph slow order" DO WHAT!!!
For a sanity check let's look at the CFR for railroad tracks. Yes, I know the regulations do not apply to transit line tracks not used by the railroad, and they are safety standards, not comfort standards. Usually streetcar tracks have to be to somewhat tighter standards because street car wheel treads are normally narrower than railroad wheel tread and flange depths are less, but 3/8 inch equals 3 mph? NOPE

Here are the FRA Safety Standards for track gauge as in the Code of Federal Regulations Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter II, Part 213. Gauge limits are defined based on standard 4'-8 1/2". I am going to just do the arithmetic and list them as under/over calling them tight/wide. Gauge variation is not the only thing defining track class, just the only thing I am listing here. These other factors are why the same gauge variation may apply to more than one class of track.

Class..Max Speed..Gauge Limits (Speed in miles per hour, gauge deviations in decimal inch.)
............... F.. /.. P........tight/wide
......1.......10 / 15........0.50 / 1.5
......2.......25 / 30........0.50 / 1.25
......3.......40 / 60........0.50 / 1.25
......4.......60 / 80........0.50 / 1.00
......5.......80 / 90........0.50 / 1.00
......6..........110............0.50 / 0.75
......7..........125............0.50 / 0.75
......8..........160............0.50 / 0.75
......9..........220............0.25 / 0.75

A 3/8 inch variation in gauge should trigger absolutely nothing. Maybe, just maybe because the wheel gauge to track gauge difference in street car wheels is slightly less than that in standard railroad wheels, a tight gauge of 3/8 inch might justify a 15 mph to 20 mph or so slow order, but if 3/8 inch wide, nothing.

My information came from articles in the Boston Globe quoting MBTA sources. Multiple times, they said that the rail separation was less than 4" 8 1/8" and that is what triggered the 3MPH speed restriction. If the separation was more than 4" 8 1/8" but less than some unknown number, there would have been a speed restriction, but not as severe, and this was true in many places on the Green Line extension. The articles also cited the contract required the rail separation be plus or minus 1/16" or less, or the contractors would have to fix it at their expense. The implication was that there is no speed restriction if the track met this requirement, but didn't say more specifically how much variation is allowed at full speed.
It would certainly not be unprecedented that the T would be lying through their teeth about all this, or that the Globe reporters misunderstood what they were saying, but the fact remains that a major portion of the GLX was under a 3MPH speed restriction and that the T attributed this to the track gauge being 3/8" too narrow.