Meadowlands Rail Service

[Andrew]

Suppose that NJ Transit (and Metro North) trains that terminate/originate at Hoboken Terminal instead went all of the way down to Fulton Street Transit Center in Lower Manhattan.

How would this impact Ridership to the Meadowlands (even if Meadowlands Shuttle Trains on the day of the Super Bowl went to/from Fulton Street instead of terminating at Secaucus Junction)?

Would it reduce traffic through the Holland Tunnel?

 

[Fan Railer]

Suppose that NJ Transit (and Metro North) trains that terminate/originate at Hoboken Terminal instead went all of the way down to Fulton Street Transit Center in Lower Manhattan.

How would this impact Ridership to the Meadowlands (even if Meadowlands Shuttle Trains on the day of the Super Bowl went to/from Fulton Street instead of terminating at Secaucus Junction)?

Would it reduce traffic through the Holland Tunnel?

This is MAD off topic. Not to mention you are suggesting building a tunnel connecting Hoboken to Downtown Manhattan, not to mention to a section of Downtown Manhattan that doesn't feasibly have room for another major transit terminal.

 

[AlanB]

Would it reduce traffic through the Holland Tunnel?

Route 3, which is the highway that runs by the Meadowlands, connects to the Lincoln Tunnel. So I can't really imagine how a train that runs from the Meadowlands would have a significant impact on traffic at the Holland Tunnel which is no where near the Meadowlands.

Anyone living in the Meadowlands area who has decided that driving is their best way to get to work, even if that job is in Downtown Manhattan, is still going to go through the Lincoln Tunnel and then drive south in Manhattan. It's faster, cheaper, and simply easier than trying to fight your way south in NJ to go through the Holland tunnel.

 

[Andrew]

1. I meant for trains that currently terminate at Hoboken Terminal to instead terminate at a new train station near Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan. Thus, Hoboken would not see any NJ Train service. Trains that currently go to/from Hoboken Terminal from places such as Dover and Ridgewood would instead travel to Lower Manhattan. I actually do believe that Lower Manhattan does have space for a new train station--if it is deep level. Perhaps the tracks would be 100 feet below street level, and would have easy connections to the Fulton Street Transit Center.

2. I meant that I was wondering that if Meadowlands Rail Service--on the day of the Super Bowl--originated in Lower Manhattan instead of Secaucus Junction--how that would impact traffic and ridership to Metlife Stadium.

 

[AlanB]

2. I meant that I was wondering that if Meadowlands Rail Service--on the day of the Super Bowl--originated in Lower Manhattan instead of Secaucus Junction--how that would impact traffic and ridership to Metlife Stadium.

It might have some impact on the Lincoln tunnel, but it's unlikely that it would have any impact on the Holland Tunnel. People in Manhattan who decide to drive to the game (assuming that they can even get parking tickets which are very limited) are going to drive out the Lincoln tunnel as it leads right to the stadium. They aren't going to drive out of the Holland tunnel which doesn't have a highway that takes you directly to the stadium. Or they're going to drive over the George Washington Bridge which also has a highway direct to the stadium.

No one is going to get in their car, drive to Hoboken which has limited parking, just to get on a train to the Meadowlands. Anyone not driving, and living in lower Manhattan will get on a PATH train to Hoboken and take the train from there.

 

[jis]

No one is going to get in their car, drive to Hoboken which has limited parking, just to get on a train to the Meadowlands. Anyone not driving, and living in lower Manhattan will get on a PATH train to Hoboken and take the train from there.

As it turns out this will involve a change of trains at Secaucus, since the shuttle runs only between Secaucus and Meadowlands, and everyone getting on the shuttle first has to undergo security check at Secaucus. This means even if you arrive from Hoboken you have to go upto the top floor, go through the security barrier, and then go down to the bottom floor to the cordoned off shuttle platform to board the shuttle.

 

[Nathanael]

No one is going to get in their car, drive to Hoboken which has limited parking, just to get on a train to the Meadowlands. Anyone not driving, and living in lower Manhattan will get on a PATH train to Hoboken and take the train from there.

As it turns out this will involve a change of trains at Secaucus, since the shuttle runs only between Secaucus and Meadowlands, and everyone getting on the shuttle first has to undergo security check at Secaucus. This means even if you arrive from Hoboken you have to go upto the top floor, go through the security barrier, and they go down to the bottom floor to the cordoned off shuttle platform to board the shuttle.

Schmuckurity, I call this. Others would call it security theater. It might make sense as a *congestion management* scheme, though -- Secaucus probably has more queuing room than elsewhere.

 

[Andrew]

1. What is the maximum speed of the Meadowlands Rail Service?

2. How can we be sure that no other "Gate" Scandal will occur on the same day as the Super Bowl?!

 

[Fan Railer]

1. What is the maximum speed of the Meadowlands Rail Service?

2. How can we be sure that no other "Gate" Scandal will occur on the same day as the Super Bowl?!

1. 70 mph, track speed. With the long and heavy sets, probably not more than 55 mph or so.
2. We can't. Nor does it make sense to even consider that as a possibility.

 

[Andrew]

NJ Transit expects to transport 12,000 ticket-holders from Secaucus Junction to the Meadowlands train station on game day. Durso cautioned that only Super Bowl ticket-holders will be permitted to board Meadowlands-bound trains. Spectators will not be allowed to ride to the stadium to take in the view. - See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/news/NJ_Transit_to_Super_Bowl_fans_Were_ready.html?c=y&page=1#sthash.5oAfdzsy.dpuf

I find that if hard to believe that only "12,000 ticket-holders" will use the Meadowlands Rail Service on February 2nd.

If this is the case, why are 10-car double decker trains going to be utilized?

 

[Fan Railer]

Here's your answer to what sets will be used: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sullivan1985/12245173005/sizes/k/

From Mike Sullivan.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sullivan1985/12245173005/

 

[jis]

I passed through Secaucus yesterday crossing over from Secaucus upper to Secaucus lower as most Meadowlands goers will have to do. And boy the security setup is something to behold. They were already doing random bag checks to practice for the big day I suppose. Of course on the big day, bags and articles that do not meet the constraints described in the folder with the game tickets will simply have to be dropped off, exactly how or where I don;t know. They will simply not be allowed through the barrier to the game shuttles.

Also see:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140131_ap_8a140635217a4c9b97619eead6b3e51b.html?c=r

 

[Andrew]

Here's your answer to what sets will be used: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sullivan1985/12245173005/sizes/k/

From Mike Sullivan.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sullivan1985/12245173005/

Great picture.

But what "End" are the locomotives positioned at? In other words, will they "lead" trains into the Meadowlands or "push" trains into the Meadowlands?

 

[PRR 60]

I passed through Secaucus yesterday crossing over from Secaucus upper to Secaucus lower as most Meadowlands goers will have to do. And boy the security setup is something to behold. They were already doing random bag checks to practice for the big day I suppose. Of course on the big day, bags and articles that do not meet the constraints described in the folder with the game tickets will simply have to be dropped off, exactly how or where I don;t know. They will simply not be allowed through the barrier to the game shuttles.

Also see:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140131_ap_8a140635217a4c9b97619eead6b3e51b.html?c=r

Bags or other items that do not meet the size and other requirements set by the NFL will not be allowed into the stadium or past the Secaucus security. There will not be a bag check, so the option is either not to attend the game or deposit the items in a nearby dumpster.

 

[Fan Railer]

Here's your answer to what sets will be used: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sullivan1985/12245173005/sizes/k/

From Mike Sullivan.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sullivan1985/12245173005/

Great picture.

But what "End" are the locomotives positioned at? In other words, will they "lead" trains into the Meadowlands or "push" trains into the Meadowlands?

You can wait a little less than 24 hours to find out. It won't kill you.

 

[Fan Railer]

Back from my trip. Security was tight as hell. Got away with two clips on the lower level before heading up to the upper level. Security was screening EVERYONE, even people who were just going from lower level to upper level for a transfer. Was told on the upper level that I'd need to fill out paper work if I wanted to continue filming, so I figured given my schedule, I'd just leave and call it a day. Not a complete loss though. Got half of what I came for.

 

[jis]

At around 2:30pm things were starting to look a bit alarming at the upper level with lines hardly moving and frequent trains dumping more people onto platforms that were getting close to full. I heard from people in the know that around 2:45 they eased off a bit on security to clear the upper level platform before something bad happened. Seemed to have worked since by 3:30 when I came back to Secaucus things were flowing much more smoothly and there was no alarming overcrowding anywhere.

 

[jerichowhiskey]

NJ.com

A record 27,000 people passed though the Secaucus Junction train station today, turning it into a virtual sauna and prompting shouts of “Jersey sucks” as football fans waited impatiently for trains to MetLife Stadium.

Almost doubled the highest estimated figure they thought would take the train.

 

[Fan Railer]

NJ.com

A record 27,000 people passed though the Secaucus Junction train station today, turning it into a virtual sauna and prompting shouts of “Jersey sucks” as football fans waited impatiently for trains to MetLife Stadium.

Almost doubled the highest estimated figure they thought would take the train.

Not sure why they even lowered the estimate in the first place.

 

[jis]

Here is a pretty good report:

http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/02/a-rough-night-for-njtransit.html

Apparently there were significant problems. I did observe one of those developing as mentioned above.

As we had suspected all along the MLVs are not suited for moving large number of people quickly due to inherent design flaws.

I think if it was somehow possible to use LIRR or MNRR style EMUs things would have moved smoother since those cars can be loaded and unloaded much more rapidly. Some suggested that even Comet's with center doors would have been preferable to the MLVs. Yes, individual train capacity would have been a little less but they would have loaded and moved and unloaded much much quicker.

As for how the organizers came up with the 12,000 number is a complete mystery. I knew people had forgotten how to do arithmetic. But even with calculators they can't? Oh well

It is too bad that mass transit got a bit of a black eye from this one.

 

[jis]

More ....

http://www.nj.com/super-bowl/index.ssf/2014/02/super_bowl_2014_hows_your_ride_home.html#incart_maj-story-1

 

[MikefromCrete]

Wow, sounds like a royal disaster. A lot more people than expected, slow loading equipment. Forced transfer.

Of course, having that TSA screening at Secaucus was a recipe for disaster. Somebody should have seen that coming.

 

[jerichowhiskey]

It was apparently Superbowl officials who came up with that number as they expected at least 30k bus riders, but when the bus option was apparently a round trip ride for $51, it's not that hard to imagine that many would not want to take it. On the other hand, those who did take the bus certainly had a much easier time getting there and back.

 

[Fan Railer]

http://www.lackawannacoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=260

 

[jis]

And here is what NFL had to say about the whole thing:

http://www.nj.com/super-bowl/index.ssf/2014/02/super_bowl_2014_nfl_executive_calls_secaucus_junction_jam_a_good_lesson_learned_for_all_of_us.html