Metro North to Penn Station

[jis]

For those interested in the MNRR Penn Station Access Project including information about the location and layout of the new stations on the erstwhile New York Connecting Railroad (Hell Gate Line)

Penn Station Access Project: Environmental Assessment and Section 4(f) Evaluation - Project Alternatives (PDF)

 

[railiner]

For those interested in the MNRR Penn Station Access Project including information about the location and layout of the new stations on the erstwhile New York Connecting Railroad (Hell Gate Line)

Penn Station Access Project: Environmental Assessment and Section 4(f) Evaluation - Project Alternatives (PDF)

Interesting. But still no stop in Queens.
The line comes fairly close to LaGuardia Airport.

 

[jis]

Interesting. But still no stop in Queens.
The line comes fairly close to LaGuardia Airport.

The only stop in Queens that is planned for the future is already baked into the track layout of Harold. It is a stop at Sunnyside roughly under where #7 crosses over the main tracks. It was originally part of the Harold reconstruction plan but the actual station was dropped for the time being due to cost overruns.

 

[railiner]

The only stop in Queens that is planned for the future is already baked into the track layout of Harold. It is a stop at Sunnyside roughly under where #7 crosses over the main tracks. It was originally part of the Harold reconstruction plan but the actual station was dropped for the time being due to cost overruns.

That would be Queens Blvd...on the edge of Long Island City. I think it would have been better if it had been further East, closer to Woodside...around where it crosses Northern Blvd, near the BQE. But anything would be better than nothing.

 

[jis]

https://pix11.com/news/local-news/deal-reached-on-penn-station-east-river-tunnel-projects-schumer/

 

[John819]

As with any project in the NY Metro area, it will be years late and at least a billion over budget.

 

[BlackDiamond]

A technical question. Isn't the catenary on the Hell Gate line south of NRO still 11KV 25Hz and if so will this be a problem for the Metro North equipment built to run on the New Haven line which is 12.5KV 60 Hz?

 

[jis]

A technical question. Isn't the catenary on the Hell Gate line south of NRO still 11KV 25Hz and if so will this be a problem for the Metro North equipment built to run on the New Haven line which is 12.5KV 60 Hz?

No. It is 60Hz upto CP Gate just before the line enters CP Harold territory and joins LIRR. For MNRR service third rail is getting extended a mile or two past CP Gate enabling transition on the fly like in Pelham.

 

[BlackDiamond]

No. It is 60Hz upto CP Gate just before the line enters CP Harold territory and joins LIRR. For MNRR service third rail is getting extended a mile or two past CP Gate enabling transition on the fly like in Pelham.

I guess the fact they are going to the trouble of extending the 3rd rail means the equipment must not be capable of running on the 25Hz catenary West of Harold /Gate

 

[jis]

I guess the fact they are going to the trouble of extending the 3rd rail means the equipment must not be capable of running on the 25Hz catenary West of Harold /Gate

The MNRR EMUs are not capable of operating on 25Hz catenary at any voltage. When that decision was made in a desperate move to stay with axle load limits (25Hz transformers are heavier by quite a bit becuase they need a larger core), many pointed out that this might prove to be a problem later. But since there was always the third rail option available it was not considered to be a major issue.

The only issue was the different kind of third rail, and that was addressed by designing a universal shoe that works on both over and under running third rail. They were tested and found to be satisfactory at least five years back now.

 

[John819]

The M8 design has the ability to run on DC power from the third rail (both underrunning (MNRR) and overrunning (LIRR)) and either 12.5 kv or 25 kv from the overhead cat.

 

[jis]

The M8 design has the ability to run on DC power from the third rail (both underrunning (MNRR) and overrunning (LIRR)) and either 12.5 kv or 25 kv from the overhead cat.

Yes, but as pointed out, only 60Hz AC not 25Hz AC, hence the change of power overhead to third rail needed short of CP Gate, even though catenary continues to Penn Station, but with 25Hz power.

 

[west point]

IMHO it is time to start the preliminary work to convert SSY, the approaches to NYP under the East River, NYP, and the Hudson River (North) tunnels to 12.5 Kv 60 Hz. Do not imagine it will be easy. Every piece of CAT equipment will need to be 25 and 60 Hz dual frequency capable. Includes CAT transformers and CBs. It may not be possible for the North River tunnels until they are rehabbed?

The M-8s will certainly perform better on the slopes of the East River tunnels under CAT than 3rd rail. But that will be well into the future. Remember they are heavier than LIRR EMUs.

 

[jis]

IMHO it is time to start the preliminary work to convert SSY, the approaches to NYP under the East River, NYP, and the Hudson River (North) tunnels to 12.5 Kv 60 Hz. Do not imagine it will be easy. Every piece of CAT equipment will need to be 25 and 60 Hz dual frequency capable. Includes CAT transformers and CBs. It may not be possible for the North River tunnels until they are rehabbed?

Since there are no plans to do that at all at present, I suspect it will be after 2040 if at all. Frankly, at present there is very little incentive to make such a huge investment with relatively little to show for in return, when much more needed projects are still going begging for funds.

 

[SubwayNut]

Doesn't the daul-type third rail shoes also mean that MNR equipment could enter the LIRR west side yard if they need to for train storage?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

yes but there really is no room each and every M-8 is equipped with the dual purpose third rail shoe

 

[Dutchrailnut]

more pictures , taken 10 years ago

 

[Dutchrailnut]

whole tech shebang

 

[BlackDiamond]

IMHO it is time to start the preliminary work to convert SSY, the approaches to NYP under the East River, NYP, and the Hudson River (North) tunnels to 12.5 Kv 60 Hz. Do not imagine it will be easy. Every piece of CAT equipment will need to be 25 and 60 Hz dual frequency capable. Includes CAT transformers and CBs. It may not be possible for the North River tunnels until they are rehabbed?

The M-8s will certainly perform better on the slopes of the East River tunnels under CAT than 3rd rail. But that will be well into the future. Remember they are heavier than LIRR EMUs.

Amtrak invested quite a bit over the years in solid state frequency converters for the existing 25Hz network plus you have 25Hz generators at the Susquehanna River dams, I don't know what would be involved in converting them over. A large investment and hard to justify with more pressing priorities such as constant tension catenary to replace the 90 year old PRR catenary on the NEC. I believe there are similar installations in Europe e.g. Switzerland that continue to use 16 2/3 Hz a similar situation.

 

[Amtrak25]

Don't forget compatibility must be maintained between the Pennsy and Reading side of SEPTA. I do not know what the capabilities of the Silverliner-IV's are, and they are about 2/3rds of the MU fleet.

 

[west point]

Can M-8s operate on LIRR territories? guess it will depend on if they meet LIRR loading gauge? maybe just some locations?
Since SEPTA is 25 Hz their car's transformers should have no problems. However, any equipment that is 25 Hz specific is another question? Understand SL-Vs are 60 HZ compatible.

 

[Amtrak25]

M-8's, or any Metro North equipment, do not have LIRR's unique ASC speed codes, so can only operate on the common portion between Harold and Penn Station, which is a 60 MPH railroad with not many signal indications. Whether even a locked down pantograph would clear Jamaica station canopies I do not know, but no one has ever looked at it. GP40's and F40's would not clear it. No way can an M-8 fit through the 63rd Street tunnel. Only a flat top MU 12'10" fits, built for Budd M-1's originally. Metro North M-7A's, with their roof air chutes, would not fit either.

LIRR still has 2 switch towers. So LIRR M-7 and M-9 MU's have lit number boards over the cab ends for train identification. MN M-7A and M-8 MU's lack those, just a number decal in its place.

 

[jis]

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/go...tract-metro-north-penn-station-access-project
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/mta-awards-contract-for-penn-station-access/
https://westfaironline.com/143592/breaking-news-metro-north-link-to-penn-station-2-87b-contract-set/

 

[blueman271]

Are there any plans to re-route some Hudson Line trains to Penn?

 

[jis]

Are there any plans to re-route some Hudson Line trains to Penn?

Yes there is such a paln, the so called Phase II plan which is currently unfunded and there is no agreement in place to move forward with its detailed planning yet.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Station_Access#Phase_Two