Miami Intermodal Center at Miami International Airport

[jis]

This looks like it could be a great benefit with both the rental car facility and MetroRail connections there.

That was the whole idea the clusterflub intervened.

 

[frequentflyer]

Could it be any better located?

View attachment 27403

Thank you, so the south leg does not exist, that is why I could not find it. Why would Amtrak want to turn the train there and block the busy hwy 953?
Why is Amtrak acting on this now? Is the present Hialeah station falling apart? The area surrounding the old station has been sketchy for years, so what changed now?

 

[jis]

Thank you, so the south leg does not exist, that is why I could not find it. Why would Amtrak want to turn the train there and block the busy hwy 953?
Why is Amtrak acting on this now? Is the present Hialeah station falling apart? The area surrounding the old station has been sketchy for years, so what changed now?

I have some speculation:

1. The old management at Amtrak that butted head with FLDOT is gone. so that history is less of a roadblock to talking to FLDOT.

2. FLDOT has become much more rail friendly since then and the FLDOT leadership is very different from what was there before, so that history is also less of a roadblock to re-engage.

3. From what I understand it is FLDOT that approached Amtrak asking what needs to be done to put the project back on track. This also might have something to do with FLDOT suddenly becoming more interested in talking to Amtrak in the context of ConnectUS and the proposed intra-Florida service in it.

So I think there are multiple factors that sort of came together to get them to start talking again. Of course what will come out of it is anybody's guess.

As for the Wye, I have not heard anyone outside of one or two in the raiflan community talk about it. It is CSX property anyway, which CSX will happily dump on anyone willing to take it, perhaps insisting that they must take the entire Homestead sub with it, if they wish to have it, while retaining trackage rights and requiring minimum guarantee of maintenance.

The reason that Amtrak ran the tests they did in the way they did is because the plan has always been to continue to use the Hialeah Yard for servicing and figure out an efficient way to get the empties to/from Hialeah Yard from/to the station. They were trying to figure out what would be the best way. They have never ever mentioned using any Wye near MIC.

 

[user 14106]

3. From what I understand it is FLDOT that approached Amtrak asking what needs to be done to put the project back on track.

I watched the live stream of the meeting from last week - interestingly the lady from FLDOT that spoke at it stated it was actually Amtrak that approached the state - when she was asked what changed to make them come back she stated they *FDOT) do not know why they (Amtrak) are suddenly interested again. The way she described it Amtrak approached them somewhat out of nowhere late last year.

 

[jis]

I watched the live stream of the meeting from last week - interestingly the lady from FLDOT that spoke at it stated it was actually Amtrak that approached the state - when she was asked what changed to make them come back she stated they *FDOT) do not know why they (Amtrak) are suddenly interested again. The way she described it Amtrak approached them somewhat out of nowhere late last year.

So the change in Amtrak management is more complete break with the past than I had imagined. I know that Amtrak contacted FDOT regarding the ConnectUS stuff, but did not know that it involved MIA too. Good to know.

It is possible that someone in Federal DOT brought up the issue with Amtrak management causing to quickly refresh their collective memories, since like many things it is possible that they were not necessarily aware of it. Remember that the new bill makes it the Federal DOT's, and not Amtrak's responsibility to put together a plan for the LD network, since Amtrak has held a steadfast position that they are not allowed to add new LD trains without explicit request with funding from Congress, and therefore they will not even think about such, apparently

 

[user 1215]

The new station would be in a better neighborhood and be closer to the cruise terminals.

I think you're thinking that the intermodal station is at the downtown Miami station used by Brightline? This one is at the airport - not close to the cruise terminals at all - around 8-10 miles away. But it's a shared station with Tri-Rail (Still won't get you to the cruise ships). In fact, there is no good way to get to the cruise ships by transit from the airport or any current or future Amtrak station. Every option would require at least a transfer to the Coral Way bus.

Since the Amtrak trainsets are all high-platform compatible, why wouldn't they have NEC-style high platforms at an all new station at the airport?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Since the Amtrak trainsets are all high-platform compatible, why wouldn't they have NEC-style high platforms at an all new station at the airport?

The airport station is joint use location. With the commuter train needing low level platforms. Will someone point out that is no sharing of platforms between the long distance night trains and the commuter trains, I would think so. In a form of a ADA lawsuit.

 

[cocojacoby]

The airport station is joint use location. With the commuter train needing low level platforms. Will someone point out that is no sharing of platforms between the long distance night trains and the commuter trains, I would think so. In a form of a ADA lawsuit.

Just quick thinking on my part, but I believe there are no high-level platforms anywhere in Florida at any Amtrak station except the recently installed ones at Tampa.

 

[user 1215]

The airport station is joint use location. With the commuter train needing low level platforms. Will someone point out that is no sharing of platforms between the long distance night trains and the commuter trains, I would think so. In a form of a ADA lawsuit.

What is there to ADA? I think the current intent is for Amtrak to exclusively use one platform with two tracks, and Tri-Rail to use one platform with two tracks. If the intent is for them to truly share any available platform (it's sloppy), then I suppose the low level platforms are appropriate - except see below:

Just quick thinking on my part, but I believe there are no high-level platforms anywhere in Florida at any Amtrak station except the recently installed ones at Tampa.

I was under the impression that there was an intent that all new station and platform developments along the Silver routes were going to accommodate high level platforms.

With proper engineering, there could have been two islands that were low platform and a high side platform that could be used by Amtrak. That track could exit left for high (Amtrak) or exit right for low (Tri-Rail).

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

There is space for additional tracks and platforms, yes there parking there currently. The high level platforms is a requirement for new stations that why the Tampa rebuilt is high. Will they get away with using low level platforms? Time and ADA lawsuit will tell.

 

[jis]

There is space for additional tracks and platforms, yes there parking there currently. The high level platforms is a requirement for new stations that why the Tampa rebuilt is high. Will they get away with using low level platforms? Time and ADA lawsuit will tell.

I don't think they will have a problem since FDOT has always positioned it as a shared facility with TriRail and there will be alternatives as specified provided. But as you said time will tell.

The space for the third platform that is now occupied by a parking lot might indeed be a high platform if the rumors of Brightline serving MIC comes to fruition. But that requires somewhat expesive connector on the southeast quadrant at Iris.

 

[west point]

JIS: Is there just a connector on the NE quadrant of Iris. Has the bridge on TriRail over the Miami River been locked in place or does it still occasionally operate?

 

[jis]

JIS: Is there just a connector on the NE quadrant of Iris.

Yes

Has the bridge on TriRail over the Miami River been locked in place or does it still occasionally operate?

I don't know.

 

[jis]

Here is another article with a video of the tests:

Video Shows Amtrak Train Fitting Into The Miami Intermodal Center In First Test Run

The test was carried out with a 10 car + 2P42 consist. When the station was constructed the Meteor was actually a longer train. The current Super Star is a longer train. Those could be addressed by building out the platform four car lengths or so beyond the first grade crossing. Right now there is absolutely no way of handling a train longer than ten cars + 2 locos, and certainly nothing that is 13 cars long. That is possibly a problem, but there is a workable solution.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

JIS: Is there just a connector on the NE quadrant of Iris. Has the bridge on TriRail over the Miami River been locked in place or does it still occasionally operate?

Per the second video that Jis link to the 100 year old bridge is scheduled for replacement with a two track fixed bridge. So no it does not operate.

Here is another article with a video of the tests:

Video Shows Amtrak Train Fitting Into The Miami Intermodal Center In First Test Run

The test was carried out with a 10 car + 2P42 consist. When the station was constructed the Meteor was actually a longer train. The current Super Star is a longer train. Those could be addressed by building out the platform four car lengths or so beyond the first grade crossing. Right now there is absolutely no way of handling a train longer than ten cars + 2 locos, and certainly nothing that is 13 cars long. That is possibly a problem, but there is a workable solution.

Or we can just keep running short trains. With the extra funds kicking around it would be nice to get something done. Length the platform. Rebuild it to a high level platform.
Extra frequency of sliver trains. Ever 8 hours (3 a day) or Ever 6 hours (4 a day).

 

[jis]

That is exactly my thought, though all this will have to wait until we lose the Super Star. Alternatively. it could be split into two in Hialeah and brought in as two trains too on those occasions when a train is longer than 11 cars. One can always frop one engine in Hialeah sice one engine can easily pull 11 cars.

 

[joelkfla]

Here is another article with a video of the tests:

Video Shows Amtrak Train Fitting Into The Miami Intermodal Center In First Test Run

The test was carried out with a 10 car + 2P42 consist. When the station was constructed the Meteor was actually a longer train. The current Super Star is a longer train. Those could be addressed by building out the platform four car lengths or so beyond the first grade crossing. Right now there is absolutely no way of handling a train longer than ten cars + 2 locos, and certainly nothing that is 13 cars long. That is possibly a problem, but there is a workable solution.

There are mini-high platforms at the north end of the platform. I don't know whether there's enough room to skooch the train up to spot the door of an 11th car there.

If you had an 11-car train, could they unload the baggage car in the crossing? But there's another problem: There's a ramp to the street between the 2 mini-high level platforms which may or not may not be wide enough for a towed baggage cart. If it is wide enough, on the satellite image it looks like they cleverly placed a lamppost a few feet from the top of the ramp.

A 4 car length platform starting from the far edge of the crossing would taper down to about 15 feet wide, because you're past the point where the tracks start to converge. I think 3 car lengths should be more than adequate, though, assuming the 11th car would be unloading in the crossing. They'd still have to modify the current platform to make it practical to run the baggage carts up from the street ... or maybe they could run them thru the parking lot.

BTW, I searched for all the YouTube run-bys I could find between 2010 & 2019, and I did not see any Meteors with more than 10 revenue cars including the baggage car. Not to say they definitely didn't exist, but nobody caught them on video. In the oldest videos, the baggage car was in the lead, followed by the sleepers and then the coaches; any idea why they switched it around?

 

[joelkfla]

Here's more footage of the event showing:

• The distance from the front of the engine to the buffer stop
• Perhaps the balloon loop @ Hialeah?
• A backup move
• A better, unobstructed view of the train leaving the station engine first

 

[cocojacoby]

In the oldest videos, the baggage car was in the lead, followed by the sleepers and then the coaches; any idea why they switched it around?

Supposedly having the baggage car at the rear smooths out the ride in the sleepers. Any fishtailing occurs in the baggage car now.

P.S. I must add that there are plenty of places where Amtrak loads/unloads passengers in streets around stations where the platforms are too short.

 

[jis]

Since Amtrak's moving forward plan apparently is to keep trains short and make them progressively shorter, the problem of short platform at MIC is probably non-existent now.

In any case, upto 11 cars + two locos should be fine. It is the twelfth car in an arriving train that lands up with loading and off loading onto ballast. But once Super Star is done and over with, will we ever have a train that long anymore? The Meteor is not slated to get an additional Sleeper. It is the Star that is slated to get one, but it does have room for such within the 10 limit.

OTOH, I guess Meteor would get forever limited to 4/5 Coaches. On 5 Coach days the Baggage Car will have to be handled on the grade crossing.

Finally, it is probably better to add a few new trains than to lengthen the existing ones anyway, if we must take the route of limited train lengths.

 

[neroden]

Here's more footage of the event showing:

• The distance from the front of the engine to the buffer stop
• Perhaps the balloon loop @ Hialeah?
• A backup move
• A better, unobstructed view of the train leaving the station engine first

So, if these were tests with 2 locos and 10 cars....

It's pretty clear they could back the train in, park the locomotives across the crossing, and add 2 more cars. 3 more if the people in the front car had to walk back to the second car to exit, which has been required at Syracuse NY (among other places).

It's unlikely that the Star or Meteor will exceed 13 cars any time soon. So that gets you to 13 cars.

Backing in means a longer travel time arriving in Miami southbound but a shorter time departing Miami northbound. So they'd *want* to back in heading northbound regardless. If they have a long southbound train, they may have to accept the extra time involved in backing in. This is tolerable.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I said this before, but building a station for today’s length of trains is fine, but not have the space to lengthen the platform for tomorrow trains is foolish. Your just shooting yourself in the foot, by not thinking of your future needs. This limited length of terminal track will cause operational issues.

Any PV will need to be drop prior to the end terminal. Resulting in delays or just preventing them from been used on the Slivers at all.

At some point a train going to hit the block at the end of tracks. In Chicago you got space to stop and the actual space between the engine/first car varies between engineers. Here in Miami it much tighter tolerance.

Still wondering about the ADA lawsuit and how they going to deal with the high full access platform requirements.

 

[cocojacoby]

So, if these were tests with 2 locos and 10 cars....

It's pretty clear they could back the train in, park the locomotives across the crossing, and add 2 more cars. 3 more if the people in the front car had to walk back to the second car to exit, which has been required at Syracuse NY (among other places).

It's unlikely that the Star or Meteor will exceed 13 cars any time soon. So that gets you to 13 cars.

Backing in means a longer travel time arriving in Miami southbound but a shorter time departing Miami northbound. So they'd *want* to back in heading northbound regardless. If they have a long southbound train, they may have to accept the extra time involved in backing in. This is tolerable.

No way to easily back a southbound in right now. You would have to do the loop in Hialeah and then slowly back four miles to MIA. Passengers might not consider that very "tolerable" adding lots of time to their arrival. The wye would need to be rebuilt to make backing in more practical and that is not in the cards at this time.

Blocking the crossing is no big deal since they have built an alternative route for the few times a day it might happen. If they really needed to, they could build more platform on the other side of the crossing.

Northbounds would always need to be backed from Hialeah but as a deadhead move.

 

[neroden]

No way to easily back a southbound in right now. You would have to do the loop in Hialeah and then slowly back four miles to MIA. Passengers might not consider that very "tolerable" adding lots of time to their arrival.

Measure the backing time in Tampa.



At least there are only 12 grade crossings on the Miami section as opposed to 17 grade crossings on the Tampa route, some without gates. Though yeah, for reversing in, it would be better to rebuild that wye.

But anyway they'd only have to do the reversing move if they managed to make a train with more than 11 cars southbound. At this point I would expect that that would be strictly a special-occasion thing. If once or twice a year they do it for Thanksgiving or a charter or whatever, I don't think it'll be a problem.

In the longer run, Miami and FDOT built the grade crossing at NW 28th St. While local panic prevented them from closing the grade crossing at NW 25th St, it's certainly possible to close it and lengthen the platforms in the future.

 

[joelkfla]

So, if these were tests with 2 locos and 10 cars....

It's pretty clear they could back the train in, park the locomotives across the crossing, and add 2 more cars. 3 more if the people in the front car had to walk back to the second car to exit, which has been required at Syracuse NY (among other places).

It's unlikely that the Star or Meteor will exceed 13 cars any time soon. So that gets you to 13 cars.

Backing in means a longer travel time arriving in Miami southbound but a shorter time departing Miami northbound. So they'd *want* to back in heading northbound regardless. If they have a long southbound train, they may have to accept the extra time involved in backing in. This is tolerable.

Passenger cars are 16' longer than the P42's. With vestibules forward, I don't think the first car of a 12-car train backed in would platform. But they could load on the crossing.

On a 13-car train, the door would probably be beyond the crossing. If they had passengers walk back, they would have to make sure they don't put a handicapped passenger there for Miami.