One facet of the restoration is that they ripped up all the platforms and tracks - which were elevated above street level, at grade with the railroad. So all that is left is the mainline itself, which is quite a long distance from the old terminal. So restoring rail passenger service might not be so simple a matter.
Michigan Central Station and Amtrak including service through Canada
- Thread starter dlagrua
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Define what you mean by "mainline". Presume passenger main line since the route through the tunnel does have significant freight traffic from both CPKC and CSX. The wye to the line Amtrak's current Detroit station is on is only a few blocks the other side of I-75/96.
The platforms are gone but the mainline is still there. Looking on Google Maps satellite view the current tracks are around 200 feet from back of the concourse. It looks like it wouldn't be as far from the station to a new platform adjacent to the mainline than the relocated tracks are from the headhouse in Sacramento, or the long walk out on the outdoor catwalk beside the old concourse over the former platform area to the current platform at Kansas City Union Station.
As long as Ford doesn't put anything that cannot be gotten through on that 200', it still looks very doable, though not perfect. It isn't any different from some other restored stations put back into service and would be about the same as the walk to the last platform at MC would have been back in the day. Not a lot different than walking down the tunnel to Track 14 at LA Union Station today, either.
It's oversimplified, but put in a station siding, platform and a walkway and you're good.
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The one thing that seems weird about the ideas floated for resumption of US-Canada train service through Detroit is that they seem to favor sending Amtrak trains to Windsor, as opposed to sending VIA trains to Detroit. It would seem that the latter would make more sense - more people are traveling between Toronto-Detroit than Chicago-Windsor, so it would seem you would want the former as a one-seat ride. There’s also considerably more options for intermodal connections in Detroit.
Furthermore, it would seem like you could run VIA into the existing Amtrak station (or a new station on that line) by the connecting track if that was preferred. Of course that would eliminate the need for MCS, though you could still reroute trains there if you wanted to make part of that the new intermodal station. Best I figure it must be because Amtrak is the party interested in extension, and/or due to US PTC requirements. Though Amtrak manages to run service into Canada…
Furthermore, it would seem like you could run VIA into the existing Amtrak station (or a new station on that line) by the connecting track if that was preferred. Of course that would eliminate the need for MCS, though you could still reroute trains there if you wanted to make part of that the new intermodal station. Best I figure it must be because Amtrak is the party interested in extension, and/or due to US PTC requirements. Though Amtrak manages to run service into Canada…
The proposals I've seen were Chicago-Toronto via Detroit. Detroit/Windsor, while a major traffic point, is where the border would be crossed, not a terminus. The model would probably be the Maple Leaf, not the Cascades or the Adirondack. That is because it would have many stops and local service in Canada between Windsor and Toronto. That means it would be operated by VIA as a VIA train in Canada and by Amtrak as an Amtrak train in the US, irrespective of whose equipment is used. Like the Maple Leaf, it would be a one-seat ride, albeit with detraining for border inspections.
VIA, the deceased Atlantic Limited across Maine notwithstanding, appears totally allergic to operating outside Canada. All cross border services are operated by Amtrak. Even on the joint Maple Leaf, it is an Amtrak train as far as Niagara Falls, ON.
I understand the International ran, at least for awhile, with one VIA trainset and one Amtrak one. It also operated on the Maple Leaf model, an Amtrak train Chicago-Sarnia, a VIA train Sarnia-Toronto, regardless of equipment. With PTC requirements today, I imagine at least an Amtrak lead unit would be required, so the service, like the Maple Leaf, would likely utilize Amtrak equipment. So, like the Maple Leaf, PTC should not be an issue.
One major issue for such a service is not MCS, PTC, or which organization physically runs the train across the border. It is the geometry of the rail network in Windsor and the Windsor VIA station location. Accessing the VIA station from the tunnel would be indirect, slow, involving low speed connecting tracks and backup moves. There are not any good connections between the CP Windsor Sub and the CN/VIA Chatham Sub.
The western 50 miles of the Chatham Sub into Windsor are actually owned by VIA, apparently CN didn't have the traffic to support it and unloaded it. Since VIA actually owns the line, I doubt that they'd want to move onto the CP Windsor Sub even if CP would have them. Somebody is going to have to pay for a relatively fast, good quality connector between the VIA Chatham Sub and CP Windsor Sub. Hint, it isn't going to be VIA.
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Detailed walk-thru of the restored ground floor:
You're not wrong and a similar proposals have been floated - some not even involving VIA, referring to one from the Province of Ontario which does have some experience running railroads without the Feds. The most recent idea was kicked around (including on AU) about a year ago, and had VIA double-headed trains stopping at the current Windsor station before reversing and using an existing industrial track to reach the CP before proceeding through the tunnel to Detroit. The announcement had all the trappings of being official, including the very active participation of the Mayor of Windsor, until VIA effectively shot it down by essentially saying they had agreed to nothing and no money was available. Ironically it was the most complete and realistic proposal, with minimal physical construction (one connection to form a wye east of VIA Windsor) and only logistical issues, such as border formalities, to delay implementation. Although MCS was considered desirable, the service could have easily operated to the current Amtrak Detroit station (as you have suggested). The presentation sounded very "real" at the time, with flashy graphics and significant press coverage.
Sound familiar?
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-...roposed-toronto-chicago-passenger-train-route
There were several versions of this story at the time - some with Amtrak as the main participant, others with VIA and still others with some form of shared service. AFAIK nothing further has developed.
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-...roposed-toronto-chicago-passenger-train-route
There were several versions of this story at the time - some with Amtrak as the main participant, others with VIA and still others with some form of shared service. AFAIK nothing further has developed.
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So looking at that map posted above, it appears they can run a local train from Michigan Central to Pontiac without needing to do a reverse move enroute…there seems to be a connection allowing it.
I agree that it would make more sense for VIA trains from Toronto (or even further East), to terminate in Detroit, than for Amtrak trains from Chicago to terminate in Windsor. Ideally at least two or more of those trains would run thru, if not all of them.
Amtrak currently operates all of the trains crossing the border, two routes all their own, and one route jointly with VIA, I believe Amtrak crews also operated into Sarnia from Port Huron, when that train ran thru, not sure. The Montrealer may have had a CN operating crew into Vermont, but it was still an Amtrak train, with Amtrak OBS crew.
AFAIK, the only train VIA ran in the US was the former all-VIA, Atlantic Limited across Maine…
I agree that it would make more sense for VIA trains from Toronto (or even further East), to terminate in Detroit, than for Amtrak trains from Chicago to terminate in Windsor. Ideally at least two or more of those trains would run thru, if not all of them.
Amtrak currently operates all of the trains crossing the border, two routes all their own, and one route jointly with VIA, I believe Amtrak crews also operated into Sarnia from Port Huron, when that train ran thru, not sure. The Montrealer may have had a CN operating crew into Vermont, but it was still an Amtrak train, with Amtrak OBS crew.
AFAIK, the only train VIA ran in the US was the former all-VIA, Atlantic Limited across Maine…
Yes, I remember that. At the time, a document from Amtrak was distributed (leaked?), which included a schedule showing Wolverine 350 being extended to Windsor to connect to VIA. I don’t recall anything showing VIA going to Detroit, though that makes way more sense.
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The CN crew took over/ was relieved at St. Albans VT.
I agree, to me the present arrangement would be like the Cascades Corridor terminating in Bellingham WA rather than logically continuing to Vancouver BC.
That most recent proposal was skewed between Amtrak and VIA depending on one's media source location. Obviously in the Windsor/Detroit area Amtrak was the feature whereas here in Eastern Ontario it was widely reported as a VIA initiative, with the coverage featuring only stock shots of VIA equipment. Amtrak was not even mentioned beyond that classic shot of a VIA locomotive pulling Superliners on the International as a historic reference.
jis
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Given the lay of the tracks, in a manner of speaking, VIA going to Detroit after calling at Windsor VIA station involves a reversal there, whereas Amtrak going to Windsor VIA station does not involve any reversal. Of course both will have to negotiate poor trackage at places almost of Yard quality unless someone wants to spend some money on the connection to VIA Windsor station. See the map in the article linked to by @jiml above. The cheaper (though possibly politically unacceptable in Canada) alternative maybe for the through train to not call at Windsor station at all and cross over to the VIA route to Toronto further east. We (@jiml and I) discussed this at length in an earlier thread a year or two back as I recall.
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west point
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Am opposed for Amtrak to pay for any expenses in Canada for this proposed CHI <> Toronto. However, the Windsor 2021 census is listed as 229,000+. Windsor definitely needs a VIA stop on the way to / from Detroit. What happened to the CN / CP Windsor station(s) that gave direct access to the tunnel?
Destroyed by fire a few years ago. I believe arson was suspected. Never was CN however.
Since the thread title has added some latitude for Amtrak on this route, here's Amtrak at Windsor (CP/MC) station in 1977:
Wikimedia Commons photo
Wikimedia Commons photo
Was never a CN passenger depot, but CN acquired it from Conrail in 1985 and its track department used it. Windsor Star, 11/16/96:
The latest news is from May 16. It says "Preliminary project design is complete, with the railways seeking Canadian federal government funding in June for the remaining phases". It would use an upgraded Essex Terminal Ry. line to access CP. https://www.chathamdailynews.ca/new...-proposed-toronto-chicago-passenger-rail-link
Agreed. My point was it was not a stop for CN passenger trains. Freights had (and still do have) trackage rights through the tunnel, although CN routes most through Sarnia/Port Huron.
Thanks for posting the fire story. I was having trouble finding it.
Michigan Central station had tunnels that ran to the platforms. They might still be there but sealed off for now, The last Amtrak trains that ran there probably used them.
I actually arrived and departed from Michigan Central in 1984. The station was totally creepy, the "waiting room" was walled off with only a walkway with plywood walls on either side leading from the front doors back to the "concourse", which was open. There were work lights strung along the plywood walls of the access corridor, otherwise the waiting room was a huge, dark cavern. Anyway, the tunnel was still in use to get out to the platforms. And it reeked of pee.
In another article I read about it, it sounded like the tunnel was filled in. In any case it wouldn't be needed to get out to a new platform by the mainline as there are no longer any platform tracks to go under.
All gone. This floor remnant is the only surviving piece of the "subway" passage which accessed the stairs up to the platforms. This area behind the depot has yet to be built out; hopefully Ford will build a direct passageway to the remaining tracks for future use. Ample room exists there to build new platforms and a couple new tracks if necessary-- the surviving structure was built for 7 freight + 1 express freight tracks, but only contains 2 now.
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Thanks, the last time I was there was catching a train in 1986, and trust me, it did not look like that. Gorgeous. Well done Ford and Detroit.
frequentflyer
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The "default" view of just the map appears to show platform tracks which are no longer there. Satellite view shows a near-current view with just the mainline remaining.
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