Midwest Venture discussion 2023 Q3 -2024

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🤔 One thing that I don't understand is, if you are buying train sets to give your riders a consistent new experience, why would you not require things to be delivered as trainsets instead of getting the order delivered as a smorgasbord of cars in random order. bot VIA and Brightline took the approach of getting full train sets delivered at a time, as is California (mostly). But I suppose Midwest and Amtrak together have their own approach.🤔
 
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🤔 One thing that I don;t understand is, if you are buying train sets to give your riders a consistent new experience, why would you not require things to be delivered as trainsets instead of getting the order delivered as a smorgasbord of cars in random order. bot VIA and Brightline took the approach of getting full train sets delivered at a time, as is California (mostly). But I suppose Midwest and Amtrak together have their own approach.🤔
Well, the new Acelas were ordered and delivered as trainsts. and they're having their problems. The Airos are also being ordered as trainsets, we'll see how that turns out.

I would imagine that the Midwest folks wanted to ba able mix and match the new equipment with their existing rolling stock, which is something you can't do with a semi-permanently coupled trainset.
 
Partly because building cars that match all together makes production easier, so requiring something else would be reflected in the final price. Partly because the Midwest has gotten a year or more of use out of their coach cars, while California waited quite a while with nearly complete trainsets out of service and a capacity crunch. Partly because Via's entire order is less than a third of the Next Generation Passenger Car order, so "batching" isn't as noticeable for VIA. Also, I believe Via only ordered Coach, Business, and Cab Control configurations, no cafe cars? Partly because Brightline now orders one type of car at a time for their expansion orders, and couldn't start until all 20 initial cars were delivered. Partly because Brightline also doesn't run a cafe car and also doesn't have cab control cars - just three types of rolling stock for the whole operation.

Edit - I read your comment as criticizing Amtrak Midwest's delivery order, not the car configuration.

Trainset maintenance takes facilities set up for it. Trainsets reduce flexibility to change consists and to include Horizon or Amfleet cars in the consist, so adjusting for a holiday period or in response to changing demand is more difficult. This way they aren't committed to a maximum length or a fixed consist, they're able to mitigate the equipment shortage by running married pairs and individual cars as they were received, and they can mix in Horizon or Amfleet as required. Finally, looking towards the future, they aren't committed to one Venture fleet either - they could buy any standard height floor passenger rolling stock to expand Midwest service. Bombardier multilevels, a future California/Long Distance derived transition coach (that one is logistically more complicated), overhauled ex-NEC Amfleets, or a competing single level design.

Since they got seventeen trainsets worth of equipment but not enough to run every trainset at six cars long (and there's already another state dipping their toe into the pool, plus Michigan probably will want more than three daily trains on the Wolverine once the improvements are done, plus...) it's pretty likely there will be a followup order of something in a few years, and in the interim a mixed fleet with the old cars is likely to persist. And they knew this when ordering, at least in broad strokes.
 
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Well, the new Acelas were ordered and delivered as trainsts. and they're having their problems. The Airos are also being ordered as trainsets, we'll see how that turns out.

I would imagine that the Midwest folks wanted to ba able mix and match the new equipment with their existing rolling stock, which is something you can't do with a semi-permanently coupled trainset.
Well yeah that was a bit of rhetorical flourish on my part. Oh I know why they did it. They should explain to people why they did it so that they ready they have to sell Business Class seat5s as Coach. It will be interesting when they suddenly up the price and Class on those BC seats being sold as Coach now confusing people , not that anyone cares perhaps. The funny thing is that the Midwest folks are having their problems too, one thing one would imagine they could avoid with the freedom to shuffle whatever together into trains.

Out of scope in this thread but the Avelia Liberty issues are not in the same class as for train sets operating at slow pokey speeds. Not too many non-semi-permanently coupled trains that operate at 155+mph anywhere in the world AFAIK even more so when they use Jacob's trucks.
 
Which problem would uncoupling the married pairs avoid?
The theory is is if there is a failure in one of the cars then that can be uncoupled and replaced on the fly. I know that Brightline does such anyway if there is a big enough failure that cannot be fixed overnight even in their semi-permanently coupled sets, So it does not appear to be an issue when push comes to shove.
 
I'm still curious at the specific sound on the venture cars as I rode one not too long ago and still encountered the sound. I have ensured that there is audio in this video.
View attachment IMG_2360.mov
Previously, I received messages from other members that the previous video's audio didn't work. Does anyone know that this alert/chime means on venture cars? Just curious.
 
I'm still curious at the specific sound on the venture cars as I rode one not too long ago and still encountered the sound. I have ensured that there is audio in this video.

Previously, I received messages from other members that the previous video's audio didn't work. Does anyone know that this alert/chime means on venture cars? Just curious.
Metra had chimes - somewhat similar, if less elegant - to alert crew to curves.
 
I'm still curious at the specific sound on the venture cars as I rode one not too long ago and still encountered the sound. I have ensured that there is audio in this video.
View attachment 37053
Previously, I received messages from other members that the previous video's audio didn't work. Does anyone know that this alert/chime means on venture cars? Just curious.
The California Ventures have the same thing. I think they’re a conductor call system when people hit the call bells. I noticed the little icon changes in the overhead screen when the chimes go off. I suspect that the placement of the bells in the bathroom is causing the call bells to be triggered frequently.
 
🤔 One thing that I don't understand is, if you are buying train sets to give your riders a consistent new experience, why would you not require things to be delivered as trainsets instead of getting the order delivered as a smorgasbord of cars in random order. bot VIA and Brightline took the approach of getting full train sets delivered at a time, as is California (mostly). But I suppose Midwest and Amtrak together have their own approach.🤔
I think traditionally new cars have always been delivered as available from the factory, meaning mixed consists were the norm during transitional periods. I guess this also allows for training and familiarization of both operational and maintenance staff to be phased over a longer period. It saves on the need to somehow store entire consists until they are ready to go, and it also means the older equipment that is in the worst condition can be eliminated first and on a case-by-case basis.

The only cases where this doesn't work is where there is some incompatibility between the newer and older equipment.
 
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Apologies if this was addressed in a previous comment I missed - does anyone know if the Venture business class cars are in service as the business class car on the Wolverine? I have a trip upcoming DET-CHI on 7/24. Thanks for anyone who can provide insight.
 
I recently passed the Quincy, Il station as the northbound Carl Sandburg was just departing. It had 3 ventures and an amfleet. I assumed the amfleet was the old cafe/business class combo. But then I noticed that the first venture car had "business class" printed on its side.

Are they now running with separate cafe and business class cars?
 
I recently passed the Quincy, Il station as the northbound Carl Sandburg was just departing. It had 3 ventures and an amfleet. I assumed the amfleet was the old cafe/business class combo. But then I noticed that the first venture car had "business class" printed on its side.

Are they now running with separate cafe and business class cars?
I believe trains to Quincy have been running with the Business Class car for a while now (maybe a year, maybe more?). No idea about how they actually operate it.

I do believe the cafe cars had a soft launch recently too?
 
I believe trains to Quincy have been running with the Business Class car for a while now (maybe a year, maybe more?). No idea about how they actually operate it.

I do believe the cafe cars had a soft launch recently too?
Cafe cars officially went into service Friday, June 14.

I recently passed the Quincy, Il station as the northbound Carl Sandburg was just departing. It had 3 ventures and an amfleet. I assumed the amfleet was the old cafe/business class combo. But then I noticed that the first venture car had "business class" printed on its side.

Are they now running with separate cafe and business class cars?
Yes, business class cars have been used as regular coach class since early 2023.
 
I believe a Wolverine was running an all - Venture consist recently. This is via pictures on Facebook in a railfan group, so take it with a grain of salt.

There were five Ventures in the consist and nothing else in the video.
 
Yes to the separate business class section. As I understand it, Business Class on Venture is handled in a coach that's about half 2-and-1 seating and half 2-and-2 seating. The cafe car, I believe, has a food service area, a large handicapped restroom and seating area, a conductor's office and something like 16 coach seats which can be used either for people eating in the cafe or, on busy days, are for sale as coach seats. At least that's what we're supposed to be getting on the Cascades. I believe the average Midwest consist is supposed to be, in order, a locomotive, a married pair business coach and cafe car, two married coaches and one non-married coach with standard couplers on each end. A fifth non-married coach can be added on busy days. That's the Midwest. On the Cascades, as I understand it, it'll be a locomotive, a full 2-and-1 Business Class coach, a cafe car with that coach seating as in the Midwest, three regular coaches and a cab-baggage coach. I'm told there will be no married pairs in the eight Cascades trainsets.
 
I believe the Midwest consist plan is a core of Business/Coach + coach, coach + coach/Cafe. The published plans were for the business and cafe cars to be in separate pairs, with the option to add single coaches - usually one, sometimes two or more. The plan mentions being able to add or remove business and cafe service separately.

The Midwest pool is 34 married pairs, 26 single cars, and 3 single cab cars. The cab cars are Hiawatha only, and six coaches are bought by Wisconsin for the pool - presumably those will be on the Hiawatha also. So that's 20 single coaches - not enough to give all 17 trainsets two cars. I think we can assume the planned consist is the two married pairs plus a single coach, with a little bit of extra capacity in the pool.

This does make you wonder what the next order will look like if, for example, Michigan can talk their way into a fourth and fifth daily Wolverine once it's 110 mph all the way across the state. I'm still hoping for a new corridor bilevel, maybe as a Long Distance car derivative.
 
It sounds like Amtrak is going to have to keep some Horizon coaches in Chicago. It doesn't look to me like there are enough Ventures to get the Midwest trains up to the length needed to handle the business, at least on weekends.

Cafe cars officially went into service Friday, June 14.
Trouble is how long is it going to take to get the rest of the cafes into service? I think they have three in Chicago now with no sign of any others. And how many months of testing will the new arrivals need. Hopefully there'll be enough to free Amfleet/Horizon cafes for the New Orleans-Mobile trains by October if those trains happen. And I guess they're trying to convert the Downeasters to Horizon to get Amfleet IIs off some of the intermediate eastern trains and on to LD trains (where they belong in the first place).
 
Today's 302 had a Charger on each end, a Viewliner, and 8 Venture cars. Does anyone know why it had an almost double consist?

I assume this is because 300 did not run today (reason reported was mechanical issues).
 
Today's 302 had a Charger on each end, a Viewliner, and 8 Venture cars. Does anyone know why it had an almost double consist?

I assume this is because 300 did not run today (reason reported was mechanical issues).
Was the Viewliner a Baggage Car or a Sleeper? Or did you mean to say Amfleet?
 
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