Modified Dining Car Service on Lake Shore Limited Effective 7/20/16

[AmtrakLKL]

Effective July 20 westbound and July 21 eastbound, the Lake Shore Limited dining car will be replaced with an Amfleet II Lounge. Therefore the train will operate with two lounge cars, one continuing to provide regular lounge service and the other providing a "modified" dining car service.

No word yet on what the modified service means as far as menus, service, options, etc. At least it isn't being called Diner-Lite as on the Cardinal, so maybe that's good news. I expect this will continue until enough Viewliner II diners are in service to provide reliable service.

 

[Acela150]

Here we go again.. FIRE BOARDMAN!

 

[jis]

Here we go again.. FIRE BOARDMAN!

Chill! In case you did not notice he is leaving in another ten weeks anyway.
Of course firing him or anyone else won't make serviceable Diners appear magically either.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yep, put the screws to the Factory to get the New Diners finished and released for testing, this should be Job One for 60 Mass!

 

[Amtrak288]

The Heritage Diners have always been my favorite cars on Amtrak because of the history behind them, I will miss them, but let's face it, these cars are pushing 70 years old! I don't even think Budd expected them to last this long! Those new Viewliner II diners can't get here fast enough! I'm riding #49 later this year and would rather have my Railroad French Toast in an actual dining car, but knowing this, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Acela150]

Here we go again.. FIRE BOARDMAN!

Chill! In case you did not notice he is leaving in another ten weeks anyway.
Of course firing him or anyone else won't make serviceable Diners appear magically either.

Yes, you're right.

Seems that this is a result of "CAF Cars Are Fictional"...

 

[GaSteve]

Effective July 20 westbound and July 21 eastbound, the Lake Shore Limited dining car will be replaced with an Amfleet II Lounge. Therefore the train will operate with two lounge cars, one continuing to provide regular lounge service and the other providing a "modified" dining car service.

No word yet on what the modified service means as far as menus, service, options, etc. At least it isn't being called Diner-Lite as on the Cardinal, so maybe that's good news. I expect this will continue until enough Viewliner II diners are in service to provide reliable service.

A lounge is substituted for a full diner on the Crescent from time to time. The menu is decent, but all microwaved. The most significant change is breakfast which can't offer freshly prepared omelets or scrambled eggs.

You can bet the reason why is that the old diners are slowly falling offline and they're trying to keep them on at least some trains. It has nothing to do with Boardman.

 

[dlagrua]

The management at Amtrak needs to realize that although they are government subsidized they are still running a transportation business that competes with buses, the airlines and driving. The purpose of any business is to thrive,by making it attractive to customers, and potential new customers. The object is obviously to have travelers select Amtrak over other modes of transportation. There is only so long that you can try to "cut your way to profitability" before the business starts falling off.

Over the past few years we have seen sharply rising prices and a lower level of service and amenities. We use to take the Autotrain regularly until the amenities disappeared and fares rose to where we now feel that driving to Florida is the more cost effective option. Many others must feel the same way as the Autotrain is now running a discounted special package to prop up sales.

The number of passengers using Amtrak is declining for the first time in years. The cause must be examined and solutions put in place. We still have a couple of Amtrak trips planned for this year, but are rethinking our future use of the service. We will most likely still use Amtrak but intend to cut back some.. Hope that my comments are considered as constructive and will eventually be evaluated by the new Amtrak President that rumor has it will be John Mica. .

 

[xyzzy]

Only a matter of time until all diners are gone from eastern LD trains except 52/53, notwithstanding the decision years ago to order new low-level diners.

There are many reasons why Amtrak ridership is declining. Reduced amenities is not the most likely cause. Fewer people under age 30 are interested in overnight train travel in the east regardless of amenities. They want day trains on relatively fast schedules, and they want reliable service -- two things that Amtrak's eastern LD operations do not offer. It's that simple.

Yes there are people who want traditional amenities, and some of them are 30-. But there aren't enough of them to sustain the service financially. There's a reason why eastern LD consists, aside from 52/53, have been steadily shrinking for 30 years.

Out west, people who want to "see the country" create a different market.

 

[GaSteve]

Only a matter of time until all diners are gone from eastern LD trains except 52/53, notwithstanding the decision years ago to order new low-level diners.

There are many reasons why Amtrak ridership is declining. Reduced amenities is not the most likely cause. Fewer people under age 30 are interested in overnight train travel in the east regardless of amenities. They want day trains on relatively fast schedules, and they want reliable service -- two things that Amtrak's eastern LD operations do not offer. It's that simple.

Yes there are people who want traditional amenities, and some of them are 30-. But there aren't enough of them to sustain the service financially. There's a reason why eastern LD consists, aside from 52/53, have been steadily shrinking for 30 years.

Out west, people who want to "see the country" create a different market.

All I can tell you is that 19/20 adds an extra coach on weekends because of demand for a total of four.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Only a matter of time until all diners are gone from eastern LD trains except 52/53, notwithstanding the decision years ago to order new low-level diners.

There are many reasons why Amtrak ridership is declining. Reduced amenities is not the most likely cause. Fewer people under age 30 are interested in overnight train travel in the east regardless of amenities. They want day trains on relatively fast schedules, and they want reliable service -- two things that Amtrak's eastern LD operations do not offer. It's that simple.

Yes there are people who want traditional amenities, and some of them are 30-. But there aren't enough of them to sustain the service financially. There's a reason why eastern LD consists, aside from 52/53, have been steadily shrinking for 30 years.

Out west, people who want to "see the country" create a different market.

All I can tell you is that 19/20 adds an extra coach on weekends because of demand for a total of four.

That doesn't necessarily increase diner service demand. I don't know how popular al a carte diner service is but I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.

If the alternative to cutting diners is cutting trains, I'll take cutting diners. Who knows, maybe the money saved could free up money for a new train or two. You might not be satisfied with a diner car less Three Rivers but I can assure you I will. And I'd much rather have the Silver Star around diner less than canceled. If everyone thought like some of you who think losing Amtrak steaks is the end of the world and stopped riding the Star, you might not have to complain about a diner less Star much longer. Luckily they haven't lost that much ridership.

 

[StriderGDM]

Ridership declining? Over 2014, yeah 2015 was down, but for a variety of reasons and I can almost guarantee the diners had nothing to do with that.

The lack of diners does suck. No doubt about it.

But I can't imagine that Amtrak isn't riding herd on CAF, but there's only so much that can be done at this point.

They rolled out the baggage cars and found lots of issues. Some could be fixed in the field and so Amtrak could keep using them, some couldn't. And quite honestly, worst case with a bad baggage car is toss baggage into a coach car.

I'd rather have limited/modified dining car service for a while than cars receiving cars that are continually being shopped because they're not ready.

Yeah, it sucks, but not much more can be done than wait and hope that Amtrak and CAF really DO wring out the bugs.

 

[bretton88]

What is happening is Amtrak is making the decision to discontinue capital maintenance on the heritage diners since they are to be retired. The idea was that CAF would deliver the new diners before too many fell out of service. However the delays have been so bad at CAF it has forced Amtrak to have to look into what trains to reduce dining service on until the new diners arrive. It was one of those plans that looked good on paper until CAF screwed everything up.

 

[the_traveler]

I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.

I beg to differ. Yes, the café is faster, but it is not always cheaper.
For example, at lunch if you want a burger, chips, soda and other things, I think it may cost less for those items in the DC than the café.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.

I beg to differ. Yes, the café is faster, but it is not always cheaper.
For example, at lunch if you want a burger, chips, soda and other things, I think it may cost less for those items in the DC than the café.

Used to be true @ Breakfast too until the nickel and Dime cuts made everything a la carte in the Diner for Coach passengers.

I still think breakfast is the best meal on the LD trains for Sleeping Car passengers since there is no charge for "extras".

 

[afigg]

Total ridership on the LD trains is up +2.8% for the first 8 months of FY2016. Now, yes, that is a rebound from previous LD ridership declines, steeper at -4,4% in FY2014, and a smaller drop of -1.2% in FY2015. But much of the loss in ridership in those years can be attributed to the Empire Builder, Texas Eagle (in 2014), LSL (in 2014). Those declines were mostly due to the extreme delays or service interruptions caused by freight congestion, track work, more than anything else. The dropoff for the AutoTrain and the Silvers can arguably be attributed in part to the loss of amenities, but the fall in gasoline prices is also a factor.

I think what is happening with the Heritage diner cars is that Amtrak is paying the price for halting maintenance overhauls on the diner cars several years ago. Overhauls are expensive. Management obviously expected the new Viewliner II diner cars to be in service well before the Heritage diner cars deteriorated too far to remain in service, but that decision has not worked out. At all. Amtrak has only 25 Amfleet II diner/lounge cars, so they don't have enough of them to put two Amfleet II diner cars on each single level LD train that currently has Heritage diner cars.

An honest and open statement from Amtrak management on the situation and the status of the CAF order would be a good move on their part, but I don't expect that from the company given its corporate culture.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.

I beg to differ. Yes, the café is faster, but it is not always cheaper.
For example, at lunch if you want a burger, chips, soda and other things, I think it may cost less for those items in the DC than the café.

On the LSL, the Angus Cheeseburger is $7.25 from the cafe car and $12.50 ($11.50+$1 for cheese) from the diner car. You get chips from the diner car while chips in the cafe car are $2.25 (total $9.50). So it's $3 less from the cafe. Drinks are extra in both cases.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/198/849/National-Cafe-Menu-0515.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/160/444/Lake-Shore-Limited-Dining-Car-Menu-0406.pdf

I don't see any other comparable items. I guess you can compare the breakfast sandwich ($4.75) to the scrambled eggs ($7.50, meat extra).

 

[Thirdrail7]

Since I'm not the most direct person on this board, I tried to drop a hint last week in the Max cars per loco? thread:

I am travelling on Via rails Canadian tonight, which has 26 passenger cars, and the consist says only two locomotives, (F40PH's), is this enough to pull it all the way over the rockies? Is there a similar system with Amtrak cars/locos, what is the approx ratio, because my TE only had one P42, and 8 cars, and these were Superliners, what is the ratio for Amfleet/Horizon, Amfleet/Horizon/Viewliner, and Superliners? Is amtrak just too "wimpy" to put less than two on some trains? I know more engines improves acceleration, but what about the fuel?

I'm just putting this here for safe keeping. Keep an eye on the eastern long distance trains. Change is likely to come to one of them in the not too distant future. h34r:

I further tried to emphasize the condition by making a strategic effort to update the Amtrak heritage cars retirement thread:

This looks a lot better to me:

Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.

Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:
1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster) -- is this really in service? OTOL doesn't think so

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751
1752 (now "training car")
1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738

(addition to original list) "Training cars" (origin unknown):
1762, 1232, 1231

-----------
Dining cars believed still in service:

1946 NYC Budd:
8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:
8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:
8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s


1950 Southern Pacific Budd:
8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:
8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:
8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:
8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s
8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

----
So the very oldest car is #8554 from the NYC, built in 1946.
The oldest cars which seem to have no major modifications are probably #8521 and #8524 -- potential museum candidates?
The ones with the most conversions over their lives are the 1951 Pennsy Parlor Car and the 1956 CB&Q coaches.

As mentioned in the Where are all the dining cars going? thread, it is unlikely you will see the 8502, 8504, 8551,8552 or the 8558 in revenue service again. T

Do the math and you'll come to the same conclusion that is listed below:

The Viewliner Diners and other cars have been seriously delayed and the diners still haven't even been taken to Hialeah yet.

Why was such an order of cars seriously delayed?

There have been numerous issues that have been documented multiple times in this thread. I can't say I blame you for not rifling through the thread to find it though. this board seriously needs a "search this thread" function.

prewarlionelrailfan--

Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)

]If multiple heritage dining cars are shopped, there is little recourse since the available/required margin is razor thin until the CAF cars come onlineThere's been talk of tentative dates but I'm not going to bother to hint or post since we've seen them come and go in the past.

There are currently 11 heritage diners and the 8400 dining car operational. That's a total of 12 cars available and you currently need for 11 service on any given day. If you lose two, you're in the bag.

What is happening is Amtrak is making the decision to discontinue capital maintenance on the heritage diners since they are to be retired. The idea was that CAF would deliver the new diners before too many fell out of service. However the delays have been so bad at CAF it has forced Amtrak to have to look into what trains to reduce dining service on until the new diners arrive. It was one of those plans that looked good on paper until CAF screwed everything up.

This is not necessarily true. What is listed below is closer to reality.:

The Heritage Diners have always been my favorite cars on Amtrak because of the history behind them, I will miss them, but let's face it, these cars are pushing 70 years old! I don't even think Budd expected them to last this long! Those new Viewliner II diners can't get here fast enough!

The diners have been shot and on life support for the better part of the last few years. Even taking some out of service in an effort to gain parts for rest can only buy you so much time. At this point, the cars are almost unable to be repaired. They have served us well but there is just nothing left in some of their tanks.

Something had to be done. You can't keep waiting for PD98 and/or PD20 to arrive in SSYD, hope that the dining car isn't shopped to add the departing trains for the day. They have been taking bath and most efforts are concentrated on protecting 97 but it also the last LD train. Things roll downhill.

Therefore, a plan was made to attempt to curb the uncertainty. You know longer have to worry about which train is going to get the shaft at the last minute. There is a bit of breathing room until the next diner fails completely.

The Lake Shore was one of the initial diner lite trains and it has the least amount of seatings. It makes sense to rob the Lake Shore to protect the Meteor and the Crescent.

As for what happens when the CAF cars come online, that is a decision that will ultimately be decided by the next regime and Congress, who mandated Amtrak make all attempts to curtail F&B losses.

 

[tommylicious]

Glad we rode it in the spring with full heritage diner, which was excellent. They ain't comin' back and neither are we to eat in those nasty, nasty lounges.

 

[Big Iron]

Looks like this might have started sooner. 49 just went through Chesterton, IN with two lounge cars, 4:28 hours down and ahead of 29 which is 5:40 down.

 

[philabos]

Yep, put the screws to the Factory to get the New Diners finished and released for testing, this should be Job One for 60 Mass!

Question - has CAF started production on the diners yet?

 

[jis]

Yes. They are apparently all built. They are having difficulty passing acceptance test apparently. Maybe Thirdrail or someone else from Amtrak say something more definitive, but then again maybe not. I was told about the completion of building by a high up person in the know, so maybe it is correct.

 

[Bob Dylan]

So as I said, the Suits in 60 Mass need to get off their duffs ( Smiling Joe probably doesn't care, he's busy lining up Consultant Business for post-retirement) and get these cars fixed, tested and into Service yesterday!

 

[Lonestar648]

If the all Viewliner Diners are completed, then where are they sitting? If none of the completed cars can pass acceptance testing, could Amtrak quietly decide to cancel the contract for failing to build an acceptable product?

 

[railiner]

.

An honest and open statement from Amtrak management on the situation and the status of the CAF order would be a good move on their part, but I don't expect that from the company given its corporate culture.

I am 'late' following this subject....has anything been released from Amtrak or the manufacturer regarding the delays or problems with these order's?