My Amtrak Success Recipe

[MARC Rider]

I know there are many who would welcome lie-flat seats in coach, but personally, I agree with Alexandria Nick. I like those little private compartments!

Part of the reason people will pay for those lay flat airliner seats is that it went from "nothing" to "lay flat seat." That's a step up. Going from "little private room" to "lay flat seat" is a step down.

I think that the market for the lie-flat business class would be coach passengers who might upgrade. And even the current amfleet II/superliner coaches aren't so bed. I too a 20 hour ride in them on the Silver Star to Tampa a few years ago, and the main problems were (1) lack of privacy for the single traveler, (2) limitations on the availability of the dining car to coach passengers on a crowded train, and (3) seat cushions that felt like concrete. The last can be easily remedied, Yeah, someone need to find the design plans for the old sleepy hollow seats and use the design on new coach seats. I regularly ride NER #67 in business class, and that works fairly well. Another possibility is the Euro/Asian style couchette. I rode one once in Japan on the Japanese equivalent of NER #67, and was surprised how roomy the berth was. And this was triple decker second-class berths.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

(and ideally State College).

Waste of money. You'd never get the ridership, there's no pre-existing infrastructure, the topography is a bear, and you're adding an hour to 90 minutes on the PHI-PIT route for a very modest (at best) population.

Even back in the old days, you went to Lemont or Bellefonte to get the train, which was on one of the secondary PRR lines. The best bet is to run Thruway service to Altoona or Huntingdon to meet some sort of increased service on the Pennsylvanian route.

 

[MARC Rider]

(and ideally State College).

Waste of money. You'd never get the ridership, there's no pre-existing infrastructure, the topography is a bear, and you're adding an hour to 90 minutes on the PHI-PIT route for a very modest (at best) population.

Even back in the old days, you went to Lemont or Bellefonte to get the train, which was on one of the secondary PRR lines. The best bet is to run Thruway service to Altoona or Huntingdon to meet some sort of increased service on the Pennsylvanian route.

You know, if we were the Chinese, we'd probably be spending the big bucks to build completely new trans-Appalachian railway rights of way. We actually did that with our Highway system 40 years ago; our major cross country highways do not exactly parallel the original roads which had steeper grade and sharper curves because they didn't have modern construction technology. I see no reason, except for the will to spend money, that a new cross PA main line couldn't be built that would pass through State College on the way from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. State College is certainly now a bigger market than Huntingdon. (And say this as the father of a Juniata College grad.) That wasn't the case when the original rail line was built (In fact State College didn't exist), and the current rail line is essentially following the route of a canal built in the 1820s. The major landscape problem I see is the 7 mountains, even the current 4-lane US 322 has a hell of a climb over that. Again, I suspect the Chinese would just drill a tunnel and be done with it.

The money, in my opinion would be worth it. Not only would it give gainful employment to construction workers, when it was done, it would provide a useful piece of infrastructure that would enhance the economy of the surrounding area, and probably the whole northeast, if not all of North America. The interstate highway system has certainly helped our economy, a modern rail network serving more places with faster speeds would also help.

 

[neutralist]

The Chinese don't have the EPA and those treehuggers to deal with, therefore they can drill anything they want and keep the cost low.

The USA is not a dictatorship.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Regrettably the EPA has condemned our environment because most environmentalists are nincompoop.

It is regrettable that this country is not a dictatorship. We'd do better under as good dictator. I volunteer.

 

[MARC Rider]

Regrettably the EPA has condemned our environment because most environmentalists are nincompoop.

It is regrettable that this country is not a dictatorship. We'd do better under as good dictator. I volunteer.

As someone who works for EPA, I can assure you that we are not controlled by the "environmentalists," whoever they are.

My experience has been that management is very careful to listen to industry to ensure that our rules are reasonable.. Of course, the environmental laws and associated executive orders insist on that, which is one reason why our rulemaking processes seems to take forever. Also, it's not always obvious from the political rhetoric, but industry is not as opposed to environmental regulation as some people think. Of course, they want the rules to work in their favor, but usually we have a good working relationship with them, as well as with the various environmental advocacy organizations.

In any even, I'm not sure what role EPA plays in holding up development of large infrastructure projects. We certainly aren't involved in the part of EPA in which I work (Office of Air and Radiation), and, in fact, we encourage greater use of rail. In any event, Environmental Impact Statement are only required for projects funded by the Federal government, so a purely state project would be exempt. It's my opinion that the delay-due-to process is baked into our political system from the start, with checks and balances, etc. helped along by the great American pastime of NIMBYism. Consider the controversies in the early 1800s about transportation infrastructure (I think they called it "internal improvements." Anyway, we are able to build the Interstate Highway System without having a dictatorship and a lot of that was built after 1970, when they started requirement Environmental Impact statements.

It's silly to blame the "environmentalists" for being the reason why new rail lines can't get built.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I apologize. *Americans At Large* are nincompoops. It was wrong of me to restrict that statement to one group arbitrarily.

 

[rickycourtney]

Overnight business travel between SF and LA? On a train? No, those days are long gone. Yes. there might be a few business travelers who would take the train, but I don't see it as more a curiosity for the serious business travelers. Besides if there was an overnight SF to LA train, it would die rather quickly when SF to LA HSR service begins.

A Coast Daylight service may survive the start of the SF to LS HSR service, but that would be because it serves coastal communities in the daytime that are a long way from the HSR route and it is a scenic route for those not in a hurry. Neither of those apply to an overnight service.

Look the fact is Amtrak is looking to add "business class" seating to the Coast Starlight.

I'm not arguing that it would be hard to appeal to customers traveling on business between SF and LA... but I'm giving my opinion on how to structure a service to have a fighting chance to appeal to those customers.

The truth is that it is still a viable business model. Megabus just launched Megabus Gold in England offering overnight sleeper bus between cities. I think there is an appeal to arriving in a city at the start of the business day, getting a good nights rest and avoiding the cost of a hotel in a city center.

As it stands the non-lie flat "business class" seating that Amtrak plans on installing on the Coast Starlight will only appeal to leisure travelers who are well heeled but don't have an overnight segment in their trip. There is an audience like that, but there is a wider audience that wants to be able to lie down and sleep, but doesn't want to pay for a roomette.

I'm also not arguing that an overnight train would survive after the introduction of CAHSR. But that's still more than a decade away. That shouldn't preclude Amtrak and Caltrans from trying something new in the meantime.

 

[afigg]

Look the fact is Amtrak is looking to add "business class" seating to the Coast Starlight.

I'm not arguing that it would be hard to appeal to customers traveling on business between SF and LA... but I'm giving my opinion on how to structure a service to have a fighting chance to appeal to those customers.

The truth is that it is still a viable business model. Megabus just launched Megabus Gold in England offering overnight sleeper bus between cities. I think there is an appeal to arriving in a city at the start of the business day, getting a good nights rest and avoiding the cost of a hotel in a city center.

As it stands the non-lie flat "business class" seating that Amtrak plans on installing on the Coast Starlight will only appeal to leisure travelers who are well heeled but don't have an overnight segment in their trip. There is an audience like that, but there is a wider audience that wants to be able to lie down and sleep, but doesn't want to pay for a roomette.

I'm also not arguing that an overnight train would survive after the introduction of CAHSR. But that's still more than a decade away. That shouldn't preclude Amtrak and Caltrans from trying something new in the meantime.

How many people on actual business trips between LA and SF region would use the special BC seats on the Coast Starlight? Maybe a few who are not on a tight schedule. In many cases, BC seats are not occupied by actual business travelers, but people on personal travel who can afford it looking for more leg room and an upgrade. If Amtrak does implement the BC section on the CS - and there has no sign of them doing so so far AFAIK - if they can fill the BC seats with leisure travelers between LA - San Jose and Portland-Seattle, the extra revenue is the same.
As for an overnight SF-LA train, it would likely take 5+ years just to implement it, because for starters the Coast Daylight has to start up first. Then Amtrak has to find the equipment and, biggest hurdle of all, CA has to agree to subsidize it. By the time all that could happen, LA to SF HSR could be close to running.

 

[andersone]

I found it absolutely exhilarating that while driving to get tot he EB earlier this month that the Illinois Department of Transportation had a section of the stander issue highway map showing rail routes. KUDOS !!

 

[JayPea]

I found it absolutely exhilarating that while driving to get tot he EB earlier this month that the Illinois Department of Transportation had a section of the stander issue highway map showing rail routes. KUDOS !!

The WSDOT (Washington Department of Transportation) highway map shows those rail lines over which Amtrak travels. In order to view the map one has to come kicking and screaming into the 21st century as the WSDOT no longer prints paper maps. They are available in PDF format however.

 

[user 1215]

Start with lay-flat seats on the Auto Train where EVERY passenger spends the whole overnight on the train.

 

[boxcarsyix]

I don't understand how "Lay flat" seats use space more efficiently than roomettes. The roomette is no longer than the made up berth so two "Lay flat" seats would take up the same space as one roomette with two berths.

 

[user 1215]

I think that the thought here is that you can have strangers next to each other without encroaching (any more than in coach) one's privacy. Theoretically, that would increase the load and revenue of a 'semi' sleeper class.

 

[boxcarsyix]

That's true but if the room is sold, the full cost is paid. I don't know how many rooms go empty, but on my trips the sleepers have been pretty full.