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Henry, I think you didn't read my reply.

You *are* wrong about business travel. As I noted, I have been collecting anecdotes of businessmen using the LSL from Buffalo to Chicago. It's reasonably common. Flying, on that particular route, sucks. Overnight train does not suck. I don't really think we disagree about the way to go forward, though...

I agree that frequent corridor trains are the future. But fast overnight trains on the same corridors, extending a little further... are also the future. The trips need to be under 12 hours, preferably around 8 hours.

Europe doesn't, generally, have multiple-overnight trains any more -- they have "get on in the evening and off in the morning" trains. As HSR routes have expanded, they have supplanted those trains, but new sleeper trains are starting to show up, going longer distances (but the same amount of time) using the HSR lines.

As corridor routes are made faster, the distance over which you can run a "get on in the evening and off in the morning" route expands. And I think that's the future of "long-distance" trains in the US: single-overnight routes, which spend most of their time on high-speed corridors which have multiple day trains. What has the most potential for this? Why, the places which have promising corridor routes, of course.

If NY-Chicago times were brought down to a reliable 10 hours, many people would use overnight trains in preference to flying (hour to JFK, hour in security, two hours in the air, hour from O'Hare, you've just spent five daytime hours, or five overnight hours awake on the redeye).

Would it be worth upgrading the rail lines that much for NY-Chicago alone? Of course not. Is it worth doing it if it is also being done for the sake of Chicago-Cleveland and NY-Buffalo day trains? I would say yes. Sadly nobody has been progressing the proposed 220 mph Chicago-Cleveland line.
 
Train travel between New York City and Chicago in 10 hours has never happened in the past, and will never happen in the future.

Business travelers can leave either city around 6 PM and fly to the other city with plenty of time to get into a hotel, if not in downtown, then near the arriving airport, and travel to their business destination from the airport hotel in the morning.
 
There's a reason that you've got overnight trains between a number of city combos, but as noted it's not of the "rail cruise" variety. To be fair, I think there's a case to be made (on the basis of turnover) for some of the LD trains out west, but it's far less than the case for those in the east.

Now, sliding over to those eastern trains, there's a case to be made for them if you can get back to where the travel times were in the late 50s or a bit better (for NEC-CHI...you had the Broadway down under 16 hours at one point, which more to the point translates into somewhere around 14:30 from PHL). Likewise, BUF-CHI actually still makes sense in this rubric: WB you board at about midnight and get into CHI before 10 AM while EB you board at 9:30 PM and disembark in BUF at around 9 AM. It might be an hour or so off of ideal both ways, but it's still nearly perfect from that perspective.

There's the additional fact that the government is stuck dumping tens of millions of dollars into the EAS because there are a lot more areas in the US than in Europe that don't have the density to organically support much of any public transport, and they're much larger than those in Europe. Frankly, you could lose France between KCY and DEN, which is why you've got collapsing bus and airline service in a lot of those areas. In all fairness, it's probably questionable how much the EAS will be able to keep up in the coming years...the subsidies might end up being too small for those airlines, while the transfer situations just plain stink and the fares are still stratospheric in a lot of those markets.

And it's not just "puny" markets like Liberal, KS or Williston, ND (where even the added flights still slam into very real competition with the Builder since a lot of them hub out of Denver, not Minneapolis) that're in the "lousy air service" boat. You've got other places like Des Moines (or Roanoke) that airline service is either expensive, transfer-heavy, infrequent, or some combination thereof. Could most of these markets support a train on their own? Frankly, some of them couldn't support a puddle jumper if their lives depended on it (and the EAS may not be enough to save them). But in conjunction with a train that's got other markets to call on along the way and that is underpinned by two or more major cities? You bet.

Bear in mind that I generally focus my support on trains that have major one-night markets to call upon, or trains that can produce such markets. I would point out that most of the Western trains do contain one (or more) such markets:
-The California Zephyr contains CHI-DEN. While this train has lost about half an hour or so off its' 1950 time on that leg (most of it apparently between CHI and Ottumwa) CHI-DEN is really more hobbled by the fact that the schedule was slid about an hour and a half earlier.
-The Empire Builder at present contains CHI-MSP (which is a nicely-timed leg), SEA/PDX-SPK (albeit with lousy timing) and Minneapolis-Williston (while new in terms of its size, it and some of the other cities along this section of the line have long been bolstered by virtue of the lousy air service...I would point out, for example, that ND generated over 150,000 O/D out of the Builder's 543k riders. I would argue rather strenuously that these are not a bunch of casual tourists out for an excursion!
-The Southwest Chief has LAX-ABQ. EB, this could perhaps use a little work (though commuter conflicts are likely to preclude much here); WB, it's got about as close to perfect timing as any long-distance city pair in the system, with 924 miles covered pretty much between 1700 and 0900. There's a reason the ABQ-LAX city pair is sitting around 30,000 passengers on a once-daily train. No, that's not WAS-NYP by any stretch of the imagination, but it's nothing to sneeze at by what is by any stretch a rather modest travel market to begin with.
-The Sunset Limited has a whole slew of workable markets, as does the entangled Texas Eagle*. LAX-Arizona and SAS-HOU-NOL are the big ones here.

Point is, you don't have a lot of through travelers on a lot of these routes, but you've got a bunch of markets that slide together. Now, can these trains make money? Probably not under the current transportation policy regime. I underline for emphasis: When put up against a system of "free" interstates and a heavily-subsidized airline system ($5bn for the FAA, $7-8bn for the TSA...even net of the 9/11 Security Fee, that's another $5-6bn...not to mention the discharge of airline debts in bankruptcies, the EAS, etc.), it's bloody crazy to expect Amtrak to turn a profit on those lines. And of course, keep in mind that I'm ignoring state/local contributions to longer-distance highways, airports, etc. (since I can't think of a single major city in the US that has let a non-redundant** airport collapse).

However, while I don't think they can make money, I think they can easily prove to be cost-effective for the government compared to the other options out there (i.e. adding lanes to expressways, etc.) and even stack up well against the current highway system in many regards. They'll be largely supported by passengers traveling <16 hours or so (with even more in the 8-12 hour range, but I think you've got a market for 12-16 hour runs), with longer markets supplying a share that, while not trivial, is still significant.

And of course, there's the question of track improvements and better average speeds. NYP-CHI on the LSL is 959 miles. At the present, WB takes 17 hours net of the time difference, or 56.41 MPH. At 60 MPH (not an outlandish goal), it would take almost exactly 16 hours. If that average could be raised to 65 MPH, you're looking at 14:45. At 70 MPH 13:42. With a reasonable investment program focused on upgrades to the Empire Corridor (NYP-ALB and ALB-BUF) and congestion relief elsewhere on the line, I do not think these are crazy goals to look at (especially since you could probably save 20 minutes without a single track change by getting rid of adding 449 to 49, and another 15 minutes on end-of-run padding)...and I do think those two hours have the potential to make a major difference.

But there's one last aspect that Amtrak would have to master: They need to get running pairs timed out better. Right now, WAS-CHI or NYP-CHI is a reasonable run for someone going to a business meeting (even if it could use some trip-length improvements). The return trip does not work: There is no way to get back to the NEC before lunchtime, and no way to get back to PHL or NYP and have even a modest part of a day to work with. Looking at the best example of a solid running pair, we've got the Crescent: NYP, PHL, WAS, and NWK to ATL make up somewhere around a combined 17% (+/-2%) of the train's ridership; put another way, you've probably got about 1/5 of the train's riders going from the NEC*** to Atlanta in spite of:
-Once-daily service
-Losing part of a day each way on the northern end of the run
-No meaningful public transit at/near the Atlanta station (I'm led to understand that MARTA service in the area is not very good)
-No car rental at the Atlanta station
-Awful parking at the Atlanta station

Frankly, this market shouldn't be that good: Atlanta isn't a transfer point, it's got half the population of Chicago, and the service is crap...but it can still pack an overnight train, and the train is probably "blocked in" by a lack of space (sleeper and otherwise; the train sells out a lot of the time). There's a reason that talk of cut-off cars here keeps coming back up: There's demand to be had.

Anyhow, to sum up:
-I firmly believe that there are significant markets to be had in the 8-16 hour range that can do well; the shorter ones (i.e. around 8-10 hours) can augment connecting trains in the 2-3 hour range at one or both ends of a run, while the longer ones will still have significant catchment areas in the 1-2 hour range (i.e. PHL-NHV for NYP, NYP-WIL for PHL, and BAL-RVR/CVS for WAS).
-These markets will be supplemented by significant sub-markets (i.e. Upstate NY-CHI on the LSL, and to a lesser extent resales of those seats NYP-upstate; WAS-PGH/PGH-CHI on the Cap).
-In many cases, upgrading tracks and other steps can put a large number of markets within reasonable ranges:

Code:
Time 60 MPH  65 MPH  70 MPH  75 MPH
6 H  360 mi. 390 mi. 420 mi. 450 mi.
8 H  480 mi. 520 mi. 560 mi. 600 mi.
10 H 600 mi. 650 mi. 700 mi. 750 mi.
12 H 720 mi. 780 mi. 840 mi. 900 mi.
14 H 840 mi. 910 mi. 980 mi. 1050mi.
16 H 960 mi. 1040mi. 1120mi. 1200mi.
65 MPH puts CHI-DEN into a 16 hour run, 70 MPH CHI-NYP.
-Longer-distance trains will primarily be supported by internal markets (i.e. the North Dakota situation on the Builder), but these can justify the existence of those trains, particularly when weighed against the cost of subsidizing air service, highway subsidies, etc.




*Great, now I'm making the Sunset sound like a fishing net...
**i.e. Ignoring a case where an old airport is shuttered because a new one replaced it; the best example I can think of would be Meigs Field in Chicago, though Montreal Mirabel is arguably a similar/comparable situation (considering that there's auto racing at the airport now).
***The top ten list didn't include BAL, WIL, or TRE...or ALX, which may absorb some DC-area traffic as well.
 
Anderson, you make a good case but I really think the overnight market for business travelers is gone forever. Compared to Europe, the US is a vast and under populated continent. What you really have here is a number of different concentrated markets separated by 1000's of miles of nothing even in the northeast. You have the LAX to San Diego market, the San Francisco/Sacramento/Bakersfield market, the Seattle/Portland market out west. Then really not much in between until you get to Chicago and the routes radiating out from there. The Chi to MSP market needs additional service, but again, it is over 400 miles and will never support more than a couple of trains a day. Denver is developing as is Alburquerque, but Denver to Alburquerque is too far to support multiple trains a day. Texas will develop in the 'triangle' someday. But other than Florida, the old south is devoid of any existing corridors. Maybe some day around Atlanta. Then of course there is the NEC and surrounding area's. All these markets are at least 1000 miles apart and sometimes 2000 miles. Simply not conducive to fast, frequent train travel, hence the once a day or less type service. And that is the way it will remain for the forseable future. No one is going to spend billions of dollars to put in high speed rail in these markets. Even the California HSR will be decades in development. I wish it were different, but it's not.
 
The counter is that on the one existing multiple-daily LD corridor, the NEC-Florida line, ridership was 1.26m on four trains each way, only two of which go end to end (the others either truncating early or only covering a single market), while the remaining two both sell out regularly and the truncated one had major construction issues that interfered with it. That's 3461 passengers/day, larger than all but four "short corridors" (the Surfliner, the Keystone, the Empire/Maple Leaf, and the Capitol Corridor). All four of those are either de facto long-haul commuter lines or, in the case of the Empire line, are that in large part.

It's true that a lot of the business on those lines is shorter-hop business, but that's my point overall: The corridors aren't just supported by endpoint or near-endpoint business, but also by shorter runs like NYP-RVR or RVR-CHS (or ORL-MIA for that matter).

I don't think HSR (i.e. bullet trains) is necessary in a lot of cases to make rail work. 90-125 MPH service would be more than sufficient in a lot of cases.
 
The counter is that on the one existing multiple-daily LD corridor, the NEC-Florida line, ridership was 1.26m on four trains each way, only two of which go end to end (the others either truncating early or only covering a single market), while the remaining two both sell out regularly and the truncated one had major construction issues that interfered with it. That's 3461 passengers/day, larger than all but four "short corridors" (the Surfliner, the Keystone, the Empire/Maple Leaf, and the Capitol Corridor). All four of those are either de facto long-haul commuter lines or, in the case of the Empire line, are that in large part.
The NY to Florida market could be Amtrak's 'crown jewel' in the short(one night out) LD market as it once was before Amtrak. But they just don't put any effort into it at all. I rode the Meteor and it was such a disappointment. Just a bland Amtrak 'blue' train with no special amenities. Of course according to Amtrak these four trains lost a combined 177 million in FY2012. My numbers are somewhat different, but then no one believes mine. lol. I say they had an operating loss of around 12 million before Auto Train last year. This year so far they lost maybe 4.5 million and if you add in Auto Train they are making money. The Star is the biggest loser simply because it has less capacity and takes longer to run the route. The Palmetto breaks even because of lower labor costs. I can't come up with a scenario where Auto Train loses money after operating costs. Of the other big eastern LD trains, the Crescent, the Capitol and the Lake Shore, the LSL is the biggest loser simply because it takes too long to run the route, not enough capacity and is really two trains in one with the split at Albany for the Boston section. On all the LD train OBS labor costs is the biggest factor. Amtrak has too many on board staff. T&E you really can't do anything about except run the train faster.lol.
 
I'm back to the same old rule: People care about time, not distance. Run the trains faster.

A serious proposal has already been made for a "corridor" service at 220 mph from Chicago-Cleveland. (Via Ft. Wayne.) This route is on the national list of high-speed corridors and part of the Midwest Regional Rail plan, though not specced at 220 mph.

Consider, for a moment, how that would affect NY-Chicago, Philadelphia-Chicago, and DC-Chicago service. Suppose that Chicago-Cleveland was 3 hours. Without having to rebuild any of those tricky mountain or riverside routes, you've knocked 4 hours off all the trip times.

10 hours NY-Chicago becomes a fairly easy target at that point, achievable with rather small improvements to the remaining track -- all of which benefits shorter corridors as well.
 
My understanding on direct costs is that the four break even: The Palmetto is in the black, as is (IIRC) the Meteor. The Auto Train breaks even, and the Star posts a minimal loss.

You're right that the Florida Service should, at the very least, be the "eastern jewel" in the Amtrak system (I can see the Starlight as the "western jewel", which it really is), but Amtrak has failed to realize the potential for what it is. Let's not forget that total O/D traffic in Florida back in the early 90s was over a million and trains were splitting at ORL for TPA/MIA, running really long with a twin-unit diner and a separate diner.

In an ideal world, Amtrak would realize the opportunity that the FEC service presents in this respect...but I doubt they have the cars, either now or in process, to fulfill the demand that could be had with sections going down both lines (A-line and FEC).

Of course, the beauty of NEC-Florida is that it can be run as a largely tourist market, with shorter internal markets (VA/Carolinas-NYP, VA/Carolinas-JAX, JAX-TPA, JAX-MIA) that sell to business.

Edit: Ok, on the distance/time/speed front, it becomes a matter of bang for buck more than anything, and that's why I generally look at more modest SEHSR-style projects as the way to go. Look, there are business markets that can work, especially if you have the frequencies to cater to them, and I do see overnight trains as just one part of the formula there. But I'll also point out that while I firmly believe, as supported by some of the anecdotes (granted, the plural of which is not "data"), that there is a market to be had where the timing works, and I think you've got a few more hours to work with. Also, there are untapped markets on this front like NYP-MTR that come to mind...especially with how cross-border airline fares have just gone to hell (witness taking the Acela being a money-saving move next to flying).

Also, I think it is important to realize that part of the problem is the once-daily nature of a lot of routes. If you miss your flight, you can often reschedule to a later one (even if at a cost). If you miss your train on the wrong route, the next train ends up being "tomorrow". Florida has tended to heave off the traffic it has because it's always had 2-3x daily trains (plus the Auto Train), which eases this.

Finally, there's something to be said for on-board amenities such as internet, which probably needs to be extended to at least the Eastern routes. I get it: We may never have Wifi on the Rio Grande line, and that's fine, but in places where there's not a severe technical limitation, even if you stick the only routers in the sleeper parts of the train it's still a major plus to have that included...especially since a lot of mid-level hotel chains offer the same regularly.
 
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It also helps that Palmetto is the fastest LD train in the system I suppose.

I think if there were a Palmetto-like train from new York to Ohio/Michigan it would do very well, and will complement the LSL well, just like the Palmetto does with the Silvers.
 
Well I'm not going to hit every point here, but I did read the article a couple months ago.

I wholeheartedly disagree that LD are only used as land cruises. I don't know, but in my 150,000 miles of riding Amtrak, I cannot remember the last time I've met someone that's taking the train "just to take the train." I've probably assisted a few hundred if not a thousand passenger getting on and off the stations in my area, and I think maybe I met one, maybe two actual foamers like us on AU. Just food for thought.

Corridor trains comes up a lot too, and you simply cannot suggest that getting rid of LD trains will somehow help the corridors. You've just erased hundreds of additional city pairs that were once there. Not to mention sleeping car revenue. And as explained in the paper, the LD trains basically are corridor trains strung together and overlapping. And to be efficient, they use one trainset for each of those trips!

Connections are probably the most important thing for SD and LD trains. They work together. Not everyone wants to only go from St. Louis to Chicago. They might want to go from Springfield to Grand Forks or La Plata to Kalamazoo. The fact that the train through La Plata happens to start in LA is really irrelevant in the grand scheme. The fact that I-35 starts in Duluth when I drive it from Dallas to Austin is irrelevant too. It's all about the network.

Europe's network is impressive. They do have some LD trains, but I'm not all that familiar with them. I went in one from Paris to Madrid, and from Rome to Switzerland. They were very utilitarian. But the fact is that they are part of the network, and that's what I'd like to see here. Every larger station should have SOME time of connection to other cities.
 
Well I'm not going to hit every point here, but I did read the article a couple months ago.
I wholeheartedly disagree that LD are only used as land cruises. I don't know, but in my 150,000 miles of riding Amtrak, I cannot remember the last time I've met someone that's taking the train "just to take the train." I've probably assisted a few hundred if not a thousand passenger getting on and off the stations in my area, and I think maybe I met one, maybe two actual foamers like us on AU. Just food for thought.

Corridor trains comes up a lot too, and you simply cannot suggest that getting rid of LD trains will somehow help the corridors. You've just erased hundreds of additional city pairs that were once there. Not to mention sleeping car revenue. And as explained in the paper, the LD trains basically are corridor trains strung together and overlapping. And to be efficient, they use one trainset for each of those trips!

Connections are probably the most important thing for SD and LD trains. They work together. Not everyone wants to only go from St. Louis to Chicago. They might want to go from Springfield to Grand Forks or La Plata to Kalamazoo. The fact that the train through La Plata happens to start in LA is really irrelevant in the grand scheme. The fact that I-35 starts in Duluth when I drive it from Dallas to Austin is irrelevant too. It's all about the network.

Europe's network is impressive. They do have some LD trains, but I'm not all that familiar with them. I went in one from Paris to Madrid, and from Rome to Switzerland. They were very utilitarian. But the fact is that they are part of the network, and that's what I'd like to see here. Every larger station should have SOME time of connection to other cities.
Good points all.
 
The more important point I think is that the expected clientale of a train that does as quick a run as possible overnight and another that is a day train would be substantially different so as to require different kinds of accommodation. At least in countries where they run serious LD passenger service they have almost exclusively sleeper service on overnight trains with very little sitting accommodation and almost exclusive Coach and Excutive sitting accommodation with very little if any Sleeping accommodation on day trains.
Didn't I once try to make this argument for an all-sleeper Autotrain? I think I was laughed off the forum for weeks because what Amtrak offers is getting sold, therefore it's what people want.
 
You're right that the Florida Service should, at the very least, be the "eastern jewel" in the Amtrak system (I can see the Starlight as the "western jewel", which it really is), but Amtrak has failed to realize the potential for what it is. Let's not forget that total O/D traffic in Florida back in the early 90s was over a million and trains were splitting at ORL for TPA/MIA, running really long with a twin-unit diner and a separate diner.
The sad part is that Amtrak fails to see jewels - only red money. The reviews from regular folks on the Coast Starlight lend to few repeat customers - and it's mostly because of the attitude of their personnel.
 
This brings up a worthwhile observation: Amtrak has, in general, focused on basically trying to run 12 identical LD trains: Only the Palmetto (basically a really long corridor train), Auto Train (a unique and still largely isolated operation), and Cardinal (held back by technical limitations) vary.

Now, let's consider the issue that has come up above: The LD trains are expensive, etc. Well, why doesn't Amtrak split trains into four categories:
-Premium LD

-Standard LD

-Premium Corridor (Acela)

-Standard Corridor (everything else short-distance)

There's no reason that Amtrak couldn't seriously look at running "B trains" on some of the LD routes (particularly ones with lots of turnover) that have a sleeping car (or two), but in lieu of the diner/cafe operation, they have a cafe-with-improvements that might swap out another 2-4 tables for a larger cooking/storage area and require a second attendant...but where the service is still walkup-style (or lunch counter-style) instead of being diner-style? In the meantime, the "A train" on the route could get spruced up, have a first-class lounge (and maybe a slightly broader liquor selection) but be given an upcharge of some sort.

Do consider that when we talk about putting extra trains on route X, not all of those trains need to be created equal, especially if the timing is right to where you've really only got a single meal on-board for most passengers (say, breakfast for a train with a later-evening departure).
 
Anderson, first of all, LD trains do not lose money as Amtrak portrays. Any company that has to allocate 80% of it's costs really doesn't know how any individual train performs. Here is an excerpt from a new article to appear in the June Trains Mag by Don Phillips, a well respected transportation journalist.

Acela, apples, watermelons — and profit?

The Acela does not make money. It hemorrhages money while blame for
losses is shifted.

TRAINS Magazine
June 2013
by Don Phillips

> Seldom in my life have I seen such a mass of misinformation spread
> about any one subject as is being spread now about the American
> passenger train. The misinformation is spread by confused and
> shallow politicians, young reporters who have no idea what they’re
> talking about, and by Amtrak officials who have learned they can
> count on the first two not to understand their technical jargon.

> Before we go an inch farther, let me say something. This column is
> intended to hammer home this fact: The Acela does not make money. In
> fact, it loses money big time. What’s more, long-distance trains are
> losers but not big money losers. If Amtrak calculated long-distance
> train financials the same way it counts Acela financials, most
> long-distance trains would be profitable.

> Now, please read this paragraph again. Let it soak in. When I first
> heard Amtrak President Joe Boardman call Acela profitable at a Senate
> committee hearing, I had to bite my tongue not to protest openly. In
> later testimony and in meetings with reporters, Boardman has added
> moderating language, and now several months later, his descriptions
> are totally accurate technically. He is also technically accurate
> about long-distance train losses. But his descriptions have set up an
> apples-and-watermelons comparison, whereby Acela makes money and
> long-distance trains lose money.

> The problem is that members of Congress and most reporters (and the
> general public) have no idea what he has said. I guess it’s not his
> fault if those misinformed people don’t know that he is counting a
> small number of cost items in Acela “profits” and has thrown every
> conceivable cost into long-distance “losses.” No comparison is even
> possible on that basis, but those misleading “facts” have become
> holy writ. Acela “makes” money and long-distance trains “lose”
> enough money to drag down Amtrak’s financial results. Just read any
> newspaper story or listen to any TV story about Amtrak and that’s
> what you see. It’s wrong, wrong, wrong...


Full story in June 2013 TRAINS.
 
Lots of claims with very little numbers and facts to back them up.

If you want to convince people, you're going to have to make a compelling case with hard numbers, not claim after claim after claim with the occasional wild numbers completely made up.

What costs? How much? Why are the allocated incorrectly?
 
To a large extent the allocation is a bit of a red herring as the formulas should be quite appropriate (after all, it makes no sense to assign shared use station costs; are you really going to clock, each and every day, exactly how much time is spent by Red Caps and ticket agents for each individual train? Or just how much time is spent by call center agents on each train? How do you assign responsibility for dead time for them?). Additionally, the biggest single cost for Amtrak is labor and allocating labor costs is going to be relatively straightforward, even if it isn't an assigned cost. Sleeper car attendants aren't exactly showing up on Acela after all.
 
You know, I'm calling **** on the overhead argument. My reasoning isn't based so much on what we can't see, but rather what we can:
-In FY 2005, after the latest major round of tweaks in revenue allocation, long distance revenue was $336.9m. Short corridor revenue was $247.6m. NEC revenue was $660.4m, and that was divided between Regionals ($368.7m), Acelas ($204.5m), Metroliners ($71.7m), and Clockers ($15.5m). Amtrak's operating subsidy per the GAO was over $500m (not including capital stuff); according to NARP, it was $570m.
-In FY 2012, long distance revenue was $516.0m (+179.1m/+53.2%), while short corridor revenue was $447.5m (+199.9m/+80.8%). NEC revenue was $1,043.8m (+383.4m/+58.1%), which was divided between the Acelas' $508.1m (+231.9m/+84.0% vs. '05 Acela+Metroliner) and Regionals' $535.7m (+167.0m/+38.5%). Amtrak's operating subsidy requirement for FY12 was $388.7m.
-In that time, the LD trains featured minimal service changes aside from time adjustments (the Three Rivers carried on a few months into FY05, but that's it). The NEC trains featured no substantial service adjustments other than the Acelas taking over the Metroliners' roles (permanently once the wheel issues were worked out). The short corridors featured several service adjustments in frequencies, particularly the addition of the Lynchburg train and at least one added Regional to Richmond.

So, in essence total revenue was up sharply...but the biggest growth was on the NEC (and on the Acela in particular): Revenue added on the NEC, even including the Clockers in 2005 revenue, was up more than revenue throughout the system in general. As far as I can tell that is a "hard" number (i.e. very hard to engage in any sort of accounting games on that front), so at the very least the premium NEC front is the best-performing segment of Amtrak's business.

Therefore, in order to argue that the NEC is a money pit, you have to either argue that it was an even more massive money pit back in 2005 or that its costs have risen far faster than the rest of the system. With a given year taken as a snapshot, there would be a chance that I could buy the arguments about overhead allocation with the Acela and NEC...but in the face of the hard-to-fake farebox situation, I just can't buy it.


(1) GAO Link: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06145.pdf
(2) NARP Link: http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uploads/fund.pdf
 
No, I am not wrong. We are railfans here and think differently from 'normal' travelers. No businessman or woman is going to use the LSL to get from NY to Chi period. Those days are gone forever. NARP in their glorious support for LD trains is stuck in the 1950's and dreams of recreating those days. They should spend some time in Europe. Fast, frequent corridor trains are the future. Europe still has a few overnight sleeper trains, but very few, and they lose all kinds of money. You can sit in any big train station in Europe and watch ICE's and regional trains coming through all day long, sometime several at one time. But you will rarely see a LD train or a sleeper train. Most routes boast hourly or every two hours service. Trogdor's idea is where it's at. One overnight sleeper train and many fast corridor train on parts of the route that can support it. Like I said, Amtrak's LD routes are pretty much set. I only see two missing links, the Chicago to Florida through Atlanta and Texas to Colorado and perhaps Portland. These trains could be made more profitable by cutting back on coach attendants and upping coach fares at least above Greyhound. Sleeper's pretty much pay for themselves. It will be interesting to see how Amtrak eventually handles the LD train thing.

Trogdor has the best solution, at least in my opinion. NARP is generally known to be a bunch of nostalgic foamers. Their support of LD trains is nice, but misguided. The LD train is just a land cruise/vacation train. It may provide for some transportation needs in certain areas, but for the most part it is just an anachronism. Particularly for a train such as the Lake Shore. No business man would use this train to get between NY and Chicago unless he was a secret rail fan. No one is going to voluntarily put them selves in a cramped little room with a public shower down the hall in a closet and get jostled all night long when they can fly to their destination in three hours and stay in a nice hotel with a restaurant and bar and a real bath and shower.
You're basically wrong.
No, I am not wrong. We are railfans here and think differently from 'normal' travelers. No businessman or woman is going to use the LSL to get from NY to Chi period. Those days are gone forever. NARP in their glorious support for LD trains is stuck in the 1950's and dreams of recreating those days. They should spend some time in Europe. Fast, frequent corridor trains are the future. Europe still has a few overnight sleeper trains, but very few, and they lose all kinds of money. You can sit in any big train station in Europe and watch ICE's and regional trains coming through all day long, sometime several at one time. But you will rarely see a LD train or a sleeper train. Most routes boast hourly or every two hours service. Trogdor's idea is where it's at. One overnight sleeper train and many fast corridor train on parts of the route that can support it. Like I said, Amtrak's LD routes are pretty much set. I only see two missing links, the Chicago to Florida through Atlanta and Texas to Colorado and perhaps Portland. These trains could be made more profitable by cutting back on coach attendants and upping coach fares at least above Greyhound. Sleeper's pretty much pay for themselves. It will be interesting to see how Amtrak eventually handles the LD train thing.
Trogdor has the best solution, at least in my opinion. NARP is generally known to be a bunch of nostalgic foamers. Their support of LD trains is nice, but misguided. The LD train is just a land cruise/vacation train. It may provide for some transportation needs in certain areas, but for the most part it is just an anachronism. Particularly for a train such as the Lake Shore. No business man would use this train to get between NY and Chicago unless he was a secret rail fan. No one is going to voluntarily put them selves in a cramped little room with a public shower down the hall in a closet and get jostled all night long when they can fly to their destination in three hours and stay in a nice hotel with a restaurant and bar and a real bath and shower.
You're basically wrong.
As a fairly frequent business traveler, I can speak to whether taking Amtrak for business trips is practical. I am on a business trip now from Jacksonville to Washington, DC to attend a conference and meet with Senate and Congressional people. I left Jacksonville at noon Wed and arrived at Reagan National Airport at 1:50PM. The meeting started at 3:00PM at a hotel near Metro Center. I took a cab, checked into my room and arrived at the meeting at 2:50PM. The cost of my round trip ticket on USAir: $360 which includes checking 1 bag, choice seat and advanced boarding. If I had taken Amtrak which has a good business related schedule, I would have had to leave Tuesday at 5:00PM and arrived in Washington at 7:00AM Wednesday. I couldn't check into my hotel room until afternoon so I would have had dead time. A round trip roomette on Amtrak taking the Meteor up Tues night and return on the Star Sunday afternoon was $1,006. My employer will only cover the $360 so I would have fund $646. As much I like to travel by train, It is difficult to justify. When I travel on the NEC, I always take Acela and employee will cover that or in other short distance corridors where it makes sense.
 
You know, I'm calling **** on the overhead argument. My reasoning isn't based so much on what we can't see, but rather what we can:
The overhead argument tends to pretend that there are no maintenance facilities, human resources, reservation centers, etc. that the long distance trains ought to contribute to. If you look at some of the older performance reports, which break out the direct and indirect costs, the Northeast Regional alone has as much indirect cost charged to it as the entirety of the long distance train network.

Therefore, in order to argue that the NEC is a money pit, you have to either argue that it was an even more massive money pit back in 2005 or that its costs have risen far faster than the rest of the system. With a given year taken as a snapshot, there would be a chance that I could buy the arguments about overhead allocation with the Acela and NEC...but in the face of the hard-to-fake farebox situation, I just can't buy it.
Well, those making the argument aren't beyond simply making stuff up, but from what I've seen it generally involves charging the entirety of Amtrak's capital expenditure to the NEC trains (also complaint that Amtrak follows practice of all other railroads in considering track replacement and such a capital rather than operational expense), occasionally charging the entirety of Amtrak's depreciation to them as well, ignoring revenues that Amtrak receives from the NEC, and a helpful serving of the conspiracy theory that Amtrak charges various NEC costs to other trains inappropriately.
 
Lots of claims with very little numbers and facts to back them up.
If you want to convince people, you're going to have to make a compelling case with hard numbers, not claim after claim after claim with the occasional wild numbers completely made up.

What costs? How much? Why are the allocated incorrectly?
I don't make this stuff up. People that write these reports are industry transportation experts such as Don Phillips. Amtrak is in the process, or so they say, of creating separate business units for LD and State supported corridor trains. Will be interesting to see how that turns out. Personally, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, least of all you Mr. Ryan. I just publish these things for discussion on here and I appreciate all constructive comments.
 
Well, by accounting rules track replacement is a capital improvement on the grounds that it occurs relatively rarely, and that it significantly extends the life of the asset (i.e. the track), so it's there to be depreciated over the course of the life of the replaced track. If the process replaced ties and/or rails every year or two it would go down to operating costs.

You can argue this is stupid, but it's what GAAP (or at least my understanding of GAAP) indicates should happen on paper.
 
AFAIR in the company I work for we consider everything that has a lifetime of 5 years or more as capital and they are depreciated using various schedules as allowed by GAAP and IRS for accounting and tax purposes, and oddly enough the schedules used by those two are not the same either!
 
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I've seen some textbook examples of less than five years before, and I know on my end we also tend to apply a cost floor in what we depreciate. We came to the latter decision after my grandmother, seeking to be careful, was depreciating everything (I think there may have been some chairs on that list) and the paperwork got to be an issue.
 
Actually as it turns out, per FI-9, Amtrak's policy on capitalization the threshold at Amtrak is one year and more than $50,000. Of course many other considerations apply. I got hold of some 3 dozen or so pages summarizing the policy. But there is one neat single page summary at the start of the section:

CapitalizationRulesSummary.PNG


So anyone that claims that there are no capital expenses involved for LD trains is at best clueless, unless of course they believe that no equipment is used that requires heavy overhaul etc.

I for one tend to not take anyone's, including any "expert" like Don Phillip to be the revealed truth just because it come from an "expert". In the past trying to validate some of such claims from experts like Selden and Phillip have turned up certain shall we say lack of expertise in arriving at those claims. But they do sell well to the choir, or at least the relevant part of it. :)

I agree with Anderson that a very large part of the overhead argument is bovine scatology. It is just the usual convenient let us count all the revenues and hide away all the costs using seemingly plausible sounding arguments, and then...... Wow! This is so profitable!
 
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