NEC riders complaints are similar to LD riders

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
980
https://commonwealthbeacon.org/opinion/amtrak-doesnt-make-it-easy-for-its-customers/
It’s all low hanging fruit that continues to be dismissed by management. The fares however seem to be getting more egregious by the week system wide. It’s only a matter of time before Congress micromanages that as well. It won’t be without past precedent either. Remember Amtrak used to have the weekly fire sale of trains that had unsold seats. 49 bucks LAX to CHI, MEM to CHI for 20. I think it was Mica that said it was bad business and Congress banned those low fares with some made up rational.

What’s happening now is 10x worse for a publicly funded transit system. I know my Senator (Grassley) has replied in his curernt Amtrak semi form letter he’s concerned with fares on the SWC and CZ.
 
https://commonwealthbeacon.org/opinion/amtrak-doesnt-make-it-easy-for-its-customers/
It’s all low hanging fruit that continues to be dismissed by management. The fares however seem to be getting more egregious by the week system wide. It’s only a matter of time before Congress micromanages that as well. It won’t be without past precedent either. Remember Amtrak used to have the weekly fire sale of trains that had unsold seats. 49 bucks LAX to CHI, MEM to CHI for 20. I think it was Mica that said it was bad business and Congress banned those low fares with some made up rational.

What’s happening now is 10x worse for a publicly funded transit system. I know my Senator (Grassley) has replied in his curernt Amtrak semi form letter he’s concerned with fares on the SWC and CZ.
So basically, it's:

Reserved assigned seating for all. I definitely agree, that should stop the chaos on boarding, the long lines, and the people wandering through the train blocking the aisles looking for non-existent single seats.

Pdf timetables -- absolutely. Of course, in a pinch they could use the ones on the RPA website, but the fact that one computer person can put together those pdf timetables on his own time certainly shows that it shouldn't be too hard for Amtrak to publish their own.

Weird stuff in the app, like tickets disappearing. That's never happened to me, but it's true that sometimes the app goes squirrelly. Again, it shouldn't be happening.

Fare are too high. Well, with yield management, it seems that Amtrak can sell last minute tickets WAS -NYP for $250 regional coach and fill up the trains. Why should they be leaving money on the table? Usually the tickets are cheaper than that, but it's true that tickets are too expensive. I think the way to do that is to increase capacity with more frequent trains, longer trains or both. I saw some really cheap BAL -WAS tickets a couple of weeks ago right after thanksgiving while they were still running 9 car trains. The BAL-WAS fare was cheaper than MARC! Basically, if the politicians want to have low fares, then they're going to need to give Amtrak a proper operating subsidy for the low fare and stop complaining about spending money on trains. "People don't rides trains.," that's just not true.
 
So basically, it's:

Reserved assigned seating for all. I definitely agree, that should stop the chaos on boarding, the long lines, and the people wandering through the train blocking the aisles looking for non-existent single seats.

Pdf timetables -- absolutely. Of course, in a pinch they could use the ones on the RPA website, but the fact that one computer person can put together those pdf timetables on his own time certainly shows that it shouldn't be too hard for Amtrak to publish their own.

Weird stuff in the app, like tickets disappearing. That's never happened to me, but it's true that sometimes the app goes squirrelly. Again, it shouldn't be happening.

Fare are too high. Well, with yield management, it seems that Amtrak can sell last minute tickets WAS -NYP for $250 regional coach and fill up the trains. Why should they be leaving money on the table? Usually the tickets are cheaper than that, but it's true that tickets are too expensive. I think the way to do that is to increase capacity with more frequent trains, longer trains or both. I saw some really cheap BAL -WAS tickets a couple of weeks ago right after thanksgiving while they were still running 9 car trains. The BAL-WAS fare was cheaper than MARC! Basically, if the politicians want to have low fares, then they're going to need to give Amtrak a proper operating subsidy for the low fare and stop complaining about spending money on trains. "People don't rides trains.," that's just not true.
They are increasing frequencies as they get their new crews qualified (takes up to 18 months). I know there's a few more trains added to the schedule starting Jan 7th. Of course they also need the equipment to make up the new trains' consists.
 
https://commonwealthbeacon.org/opinion/amtrak-doesnt-make-it-easy-for-its-customers/
It’s all low hanging fruit that continues to be dismissed by management. The fares however seem to be getting more egregious by the week system wide. It’s only a matter of time before Congress micromanages that as well. It won’t be without past precedent either. Remember Amtrak used to have the weekly fire sale of trains that had unsold seats. 49 bucks LAX to CHI, MEM to CHI for 20. I think it was Mica that said it was bad business and Congress banned those low fares with some made up rational.

What’s happening now is 10x worse for a publicly funded transit system. I know my Senator (Grassley) has replied in his curernt Amtrak semi form letter he’s concerned with fares on the SWC and CZ.

Grassley is probably getting calls from people at the retirement village wondering what happened to the fire sale fares. lol. Or how they are getting priced out by people willing to pay $1800 one-way for a roomette.

Honestly though, even if Amtrak could put every last car they have into revenue service tomorrow, I'm not sure it would help pricing much. Short of a fare cap, which I'm not really a fan of either.

On a recent trip via business class to NYP, on the Carolinian, I sat next to a couple who booked about two weeks out, and claimed they paid $680 one-way. And were happy to pay it.
 
Grassley is probably getting calls from people at the retirement village wondering what happened to the fire sale fares. lol. Or how they are getting priced out by people willing to pay $1800 one-way for a roomette.

Honestly though, even if Amtrak could put every last car they have into revenue service tomorrow, I'm not sure it would help pricing much. Short of a fare cap, which I'm not really a fan of either.

On a recent trip via business class to NYP, on the Carolinian, I sat next to a couple who booked about two weeks out, and claimed they paid $680 one-way. And were happy to pay it.
I mean, on the sleeper front (at least) it probably would for the eastern trains. Amtrak has, IIRC, 74 Viewliner I/II sleepers plus the bag-dorms. Since Amtrak isn't doing anything on 66/67 (now impractical due to handling in VA), there is no reason that the Star, Meteor, or LSL should have less than four sleeping cars each unless there's horridly low demand (which, I'll allow, can happen in some slow seasons). That would consume 44 sleeping cars (16, 16, and 12), leaving 30 for the Crescent, Cardinal, and shop/spare counts (probably 3/train for the Crescent and 2/train for the Cardinal, leaving 14 for shop/spare).
 
I for one actually like the way Amtrak does seating on the long distance runs. On the whole the attendants are pretty good at making sure midnight alighting passengers don’t get window seats. If you’re running 1,000+ miles usually you don’t get a seat mate the whole way. Managing platform spots should be-a priority. There’s a lot of variables that go into the chart that I don’t think would work using an airline style system. With the Corridor, I‘M indifferent. I will say Red Caps have always been helpful with groups and elderly people 8 have traveled with.
 
Grassley is probably getting calls from people at the retirement village wondering what happened to the fire sale fares. lol. Or how they are getting priced out by people willing to pay $1800 one-way for a roomette.

Honestly though, even if Amtrak could put every last car they have into revenue service tomorrow, I'm not sure it would help pricing much. Short of a fare cap, which I'm not really a fan of either.

On a recent trip via business class to NYP, on the Carolinian, I sat next to a couple who booked about two weeks out, and claimed they paid $680 one-way. And were happy to pay it.
Probably them too but for us it’s the $2700 one way family room. More then double what we used to pay and for the most part the family room isn’t the typical yield management it’s $2700 3 months out or 3 days out. Most of the year there’s only 1 family room on the train and most days it’s empty since it usually always shows available at least 5 days a week. Granted the entire SWC appears to be sold out this week but it is Christmas week:)
 
On a recent trip via business class to NYP, on the Carolinian, I sat next to a couple who booked about two weeks out, and claimed they paid $680 one-way. And were happy to pay it.
As seniors who are no longer up to driving long distances and who don’t wish to undergo the many inconveniences, indignities and stresses associated with flying, the train is our only means of traveling across country to visit family members. In order to obtain the accommodations we want for the days we wish to travel, it has now become necessary for us to buy our tickets months in advance. In our opinion, this is one of the reasons why many people have given up on traveling by train; the accommodations they want are sold out weeks or even months in advance. Enough equipment should be available so that the consists of Amtrak trains can be adjusted based on the demand for accommodations on a particular day.
 
Last edited:
Sleepers are a relatively small part of Amtrak’s ridership. And there’s no guarantee any congress people would even care about room fares. In Amtrak’s view it’s a premium class of service and there is no duty per the mission statement to make sleeper fares cheap and accessible - they feel they have the right to charge what the market will bear unlike the coach fares. There is no guarantee congress people would disagree with that view and demand lower room prices - they have never really weighed in on sleepers vs. the mission statement.
 
One way of getting a feel for what you're getting for your $ is to calculate the cost of travel per hour of travel. F'rinstance, I just picked the random date of 17 April to compare a Roomette with flying for two people (each with one checked bag) from CHI to SEA.

• EB worked out to $23.66 per hour
• AA or Delta non-stop worked out to $43.36 per hour.

Even a high bucket Roomette for two beats flying using this metric at $40.22 per hour. So if speed's not relevant, . . . . . .
 
Sleepers are a relatively small part of Amtrak’s ridership. And there’s no guarantee any congress people would even care about room fares. In Amtrak’s view it’s a premium class of service and there is no duty per the mission statement to make sleeper fares cheap and accessible - they feel they have the right to charge what the market will bear unlike the coach fares. There is no guarantee congress people would disagree with that view and demand lower room prices - they have never really weighed in on sleepers vs. the mission statement.
So, as a part of Amtrak's overall ridership, you're right. And of course, this explains Amtrak's occasional/alleged "over-focus" on the NEC (which has historically been around 35-40% of ridership, while state corridors have been around 50% [and on a modest upward trend]) vs the LD trains (which have been about 10-15% of ridership). However, note a chicken-and-egg problem here: The LD trains have functionally not received a capacity expansion in a very long time [1], while they've suffered equipment diversions (e.g. Superliners on the Surfliner). while the NEC got the Acelas in the 2000s (and more recently, the Acela IIs have been ordered). Regional trains have also gotten equipment supplements in the form of the California cars/Surfliners and then the Siemens sets.

Within the LD side of things, when we were getting broken-out data, sleeper ridership was generally something like 18% of LD ridership, but it varied a lot by train. The LSL had a fairly low sleeper ridership share (because of heavy coach turnover in NY), and so did the Star (coach turnover in Richmond, Raleigh, Orlando, and Tampa), some of the western trains were rather higher (as was the Capitol Limited, IIRC), and of course the Auto Train sat at like 40%.

The bigger issue is Amtrak's (apparently voluntary, annoyingly habitual) idling of sleeper equipment and failure to procure more. For clarity, the CAF order "went bad" for reasons not entirely within Amtrak's control (there was a "low bidder"/"inconvenience discount" at issue), but in general Amtrak hasn't seen this as a priority. The split fleet problem has also been a devil here, since inevitably any order is only for half of the trains (this is why I'm a fan of going to an all single-level fleet - I'd like to be able to swing 30-50 sleeping cars off of the Western Transcons in winter and put them on the Florida trains rather than just losing the capacity [2]).

As a note, sleeper ridership was something like 600-700k/yr for a long time. I don't know what it is now, but Amtrak's capacity constraints don't help there. I'd guess it's closer to 500k now (give the number of trains that have lost a sleeper). And yes, I do think that if the capacity were available, yield factors might be a bit lower but sleeper ridership would probably land somewhere in the 800k-1m range.

There's one reason to care about sleeper access, and that's access to the dining car. That is at best erratic for coach pax now (on a number of routes it is non-existent, and on others access is touchy-at-best), which gets problematic on longer trips. Now, the solution there is probably to order Amtrak to make diner access available to coach pax, but that may require some percussive therapy.

One way of getting a feel for what you're getting for your $ is to calculate the cost of travel per hour of travel. F'rinstance, I just picked the random date of 17 April to compare a Roomette with flying for two people (each with one checked bag) from CHI to SEA.

• EB worked out to $23.66 per hour
• AA or Delta non-stop worked out to $43.36 per hour.

Even a high bucket Roomette for two beats flying using this metric at $40.22 per hour. So if speed's not relevant, . . . . . .
That's one hell of a metric to go by given that the average traveler is, at a minimum, not likely to consider spending lots of time en route a positive (even if they don't consider it to be a negative). Also, is that a coach traveler on those flights, or a passenger in low-bucket first class? I strongly suspect the former, and I think a lot of us have generally objected to using an airline coach fare vs a sleeper fare.


[1] The Viewliner II order has not acted to increase capacity, though the blame for this is with Amtrak idling a lot of equipment. The Viewliner I order was actually a decrease, since it was replacing pre-Amtrak equipment at less than 1:1. So the last expansion of capacity was either from the Superliner IIs (and it was a temporary increase), the Superliner Is (there's a case this was temporary since it allowed a lot of older stuff to be phased out), or...never (the Amfleet IIs were also Heritage replacement). I think the Superliner Is do count, FWIW, but the increase was marginal.
[2] I did an analysis of monthly sleeper ridership data (I posted my findings in a thread here some years ago). Essentially, the Western trains are very seasonal while the Florida trains plus the Crescent tended to have near-flat ridership (suggesting that any seasonal variation in demand was simply getting blocked by a brick wall of capacity constraints).
 
As seniors who are no longer up to driving long distances and who don’t wish to undergo the many inconveniences, indignities and stresses associated with flying, the train is our only means of traveling across country to visit family members. In order to obtain the accommodations we want for the days we wish to travel, it has now become necessary for us to buy our tickets months in advance. In our opinion, this is one of the reasons why many people have given up on traveling by train; the accommodations they want are sold out weeks or even months in advance. Enough equipment should be available so that the consists of Amtrak trains can be adjusted based on the demand for accommodations on a particular day.
People evidently aren't giving up train travel though, judging by the ridership statistics.
 
Concerning seat reservations on the NEC - that would work if every reservation either allowed you to choose a seat or assigned one at random if you didn't choose one, like most airlines do. What would not work is a mixture of assigned and unassigned seats, especially with a passenger culture not used to seat assignments and people taking others assigned seats. Even with all assigned seats it would take some readjustment for those used to many years of free for all on Amtrak trains.
 
Concerning seat reservations on the NEC - that would work if every reservation either allowed you to choose a seat or assigned one at random if you didn't choose one, like most airlines do. What would not work is a mixture of assigned and unassigned seats, especially with a passenger culture not used to seat assignments and people taking others assigned seats. Even with all assigned seats it would take some readjustment for those used to many years of free for all on Amtrak trains.
There are also some services with a mix of reserved and unreserved like the keystone which would make seat assignments tricky on some services.
 
The problem arises from Amtrak's strange use of the term Reserved. More often than not in the rest of the world, when the term Reserved is used it means that an accommodation is assigned. What Amtrak means when it says Reserved is really Capacity Managed, i.e. no more tickets are sold than there are seats.

In any case just because a train is Capacity Managed/Reserved does not mean it has to have assigned accommodation.
 
Last edited:
Concerning seat reservations on the NEC - that would work if every reservation either allowed you to choose a seat or assigned one at random if you didn't choose one, like most airlines do. What would not work is a mixture of assigned and unassigned seats, especially with a passenger culture not used to seat assignments and people taking others assigned seats. Even with all assigned seats it would take some readjustment for those used to many years of free for all on Amtrak trains.
Also, it would functionally require all-doors boarding at all stations. If someone can only board at Car 7 but their seat is in Car 1 and they have a lot of luggage (or are mobility-restricted), that's going to be a problem, and a lot of the NEC trains going elsewhere only have boarding at 1-2 doors off-corridor.
 
I agree. However, IMHO, ridership numbers, particularly for the sleeping cars, could be even higher if more equipment was available to meet customer demand.
Yeah. When the Silvers are consistently either sold out or within a bedroom of being sold out, Amtrak is leaving demand (and money) on the table.
 
Concerning seat reservations on the NEC - that would work if every reservation either allowed you to choose a seat or assigned one at random if you didn't choose one, like most airlines do. What would not work is a mixture of assigned and unassigned seats, especially with a passenger culture not used to seat assignments and people taking others assigned seats. Even with all assigned seats it would take some readjustment for those used to many years of free for all on Amtrak trains.
In Poland, the national rail operator PKP went to all-assigned seating for its intercity services back in 2011. Before that, it was a free for all, much like at Amtrak. Most people who take the train consider this to be the single best thing that has happened to the trains. People really like that they know what's going to happen. And on the "unreserved" trains, they allow a seat reservation which states "no guarantee of a seat" - meaning, we're sold out, standing room only, but you can still ride. That also allows the passenger to know whether you will have a seat or not. But of course that would not work on the Keystone, which has different rules between HAR and PHL and PHL and NYP.
 
I usually take sleepers due to my traveling partner's needs, but when I travel alone, I go coach. When I go coach from Albuquerque (I know it's not the NER), almost every time I am assigned a seat by Amtrak station or train staff and every time that I have been assigned a seat, it has always been occupied by someone else and sometimes by people who were also assigned seats, but whose assigned seats were also taken by somebody else. But I grant you that things might be different if the customers were forced to assign themselves seats when buying the ticket.
 
Back
Top