New AGR vs. Old AGR

[printman2000]

Well that muddies the water.

Not at all - it confirms what I've been saying all along. If you book a trip today, today's cancellation policy applies. If you book a trip on or after January 24, the new cancellation policy applies.

Yes it does. Two people have called and got opposite answers.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

From the AGR website, seems pretty clear...

Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?

A: The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date.

http://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/

I don't this this helps with this disagreement. I think the question is, "I made my rezzy under the OLD system, (and in theory, "terms and conditions") but what if I MODIFY or CANCEL after January 24th......."

Looks like it gives us Amtrak's written position on what will happen.

Well that muddies the water.

Not at all - it confirms what I've been saying all along. If you book a trip today, today's cancellation policy applies. If you book a trip on or after January 24, the new cancellation policy applies.

Yes it does. Two people have called and got opposite answers.

This dispute mainly seems to revolve around what is right vs. what is legal, which are almost entirely unrelated if you really think about it. Let's say Amtrak somehow forgets to cover all their bases with fine print and breaks the law by penalizing you illegally. Who is going to pay your legal bills as you take Amtrak to court and spend many times the value of the original penalty on the hope that maybe you'll eventually get some tiny fraction of your total expenses back again? Even if you take Amtrak to small claims court you could be looking at a year or two of effort just to break even, assuming you prevailed at all.

 

[I always rode the Southern]

Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.

Every fitness club chain spells out in its terms what happens if a branch closes. And fitness clubs are welcome to change their terms for new membership and for renewals, but they can't impose more restrictive terms on memberships that are already under way.

AGR's technical issues are AGR's problem, not the customer's. If the customer is entitled to a full refund (because an AGR agent confirmed that he'd be entitled to a full refund if he canceled his trip), then it's on AGR to find a way to provide a full refund.

They're talking about the difference between the program rules (what it costs to earn/redeerm) and cancellation/modification rules.

As I noted, there are a lot of things that change, and I'm not quite sure that anyone is really going to grandfather the rules. For instance, United Club changed their rules to that saying that after a certain date that one is required to show a ticket for travel. However, there are those who purchased/renewed their memberships before the announcement. I'm guessing United still feels they're subject to those rules. One with a membership used to be able to get a pass to get through security, but now it probably wouldn't make any sense. This may even affect some AGR members who might be able to get past security on a gate pass to accompany someone else, but then decide to visit a United Club before leaving.

The cancellation/modification policy is part of the program rules. The cancellation/refund policy is always determined by when the purchase is made, because that's when the purchaser agrees to the terms. The terms can't be changed after that point without the purchaser's consent, and simply waiting for January 23 to come and go cannot be construed as consent.

This isn't a question of grandfathering. This is a question of simply honoring the terms that Amtrak and the traveler mutually agreed to when the purchase was made.

For some people, a generous cancellation policy is important. Somebody who books a ticket because of a generous cancellation policy has every right to expect that full cancellation policy to be upheld; otherwise, he might have booked a Flexible fare in cash or flown Southwest (which also has a generous cancellation policy for redemptions and a generous change policy for everyone).

Well that muddies the water.

Not at all - it confirms what I've been saying all along. If you book a trip today, today's cancellation policy applies. If you book a trip on or after January 24, the new cancellation policy applies.

No, it muddies the water. I called a few days ago to book a trip in April and was told that if I wanted to modify or cancel on after Jan 24th, the penalty would apply. If I modified before that date, no penalty. What I didn't ask to be clarified was what that penalty would be assessed on. I just assumed it would be the worst case, that the points you spent would be returned to your account minus 10%, no matter what (2,500 loss on 25,000 pt BR.) and then you would buy at the new rate and have a greater loss if the bucket is cost is higher. So I hope everyone is correct in assuming that the penalty is only if the new bucket rate is lower. :unsure:

 

[BCL]

No, it muddies the water. I called a few days ago to book a trip in April and was told that if I wanted to modify or cancel on after Jan 24th, the penalty would apply. If I modified before that date, no penalty. What I didn't ask to be clarified was what that penalty would be assessed on. I just assumed it would be the worst case, that the points you spent would be returned to your account minus 10%, no matter what (2,500 loss on 25,000 pt BR.) and then you would buy at the new rate and have a greater loss if the bucket is cost is higher. So I hope everyone is correct in assuming that the penalty is only if the new bucket rate is lower. :unsure:

Of course here are the guidelines:

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/2016redemptionguidelines

The cancellation policy seems pretty clear.

* For cancelations on one-way, round-trip or multi-segment reward travel, the following will apply:

• A 10% points penalty is assessed for any refund (redeposit) back to the member account.
• If canceling a non-sleeper ticket within 24 hours prior to departure, or a sleeper ticket within 14 days prior to departure, an additional "close-in" penalty of 10% of the points redeemed will be collected (waived for Select Executive)

It's a straight up 10% of the total amount, plus a 10% additional close-in penalty if cancelled too late.

 

[printman2000]

I have confirmed from a very solid source that the new program rules will apply to ALL reservations after January 24th, 2016, regardless of when they were reserved.

 

[TinCan782]

Several weeks ago I booked a "zone" based AGR trip. The representative asked if I understood that penalties may apply if I modified or cancelled 1/24.

I think everyone should count on the penalties under the new system. If, for some reason, someone escapes that, consider yourself lucky and enjoy!

 

[benale]

I made a zone based reservation for March earlier this month. Everything is the same until 1/24. If you cancel before that date there is no penalty. After 1/24 it is 10%. Also if you have booked a zone reservation for anytime after the new rules take effect, it will be null and void if you cancel after that date when AGR goes to a cash based system.

I booked the longest 20,000 point roomette reservation I could find for March. If I had to cancel after Jan 24 it would cost me 55,000 points for the same itinerary.

 

[HARHBG]

As for those who have written, I can attest to the fact that Amtrak indeed makes up rules as they go along or when it benefits Amtrak. In redeeming the six upgrade coupons I've received, I've gotten five different "interpretations" of the rules. The last one was not being able to redeem the upgrade coupon from Business to First on Acela because I had a "Disability Fare"....Amtrak justified this under the very last line of the conditions paragraph as "Other conditions may apply"...............and when asked specifically for a list of all "other conditions" Amtrak agent mumbled, "I don't have time for that now."...............

So I guess if you're wearing a blue shirt that day Amtrak can decide, no upgrades for those in blue shirts today and justify it by citing, "Other conditions may apply"..................

 

[BCL]

I made a zone based reservation for March earlier this month. Everything is the same until 1/24. If you cancel before that date there is no penalty. After 1/24 it is 10%. Also if you have booked a zone reservation for anytime after the new rules take effect, it will be null and void if you cancel after that date when AGR goes to a cash based system.

I booked the longest 20,000 point roomette reservation I could find for March. If I had to cancel after Jan 24 it would cost me 55,000 points for the same itinerary.

I don't think "null and void" is quite the right way to express how it will all go down. Obviously cancelling before the trip starts (but on/after Jan 24) will return the points minus the 10% penalty. They won't allow for a modification that uses the old rules for point costs, but rather subject to the new rules where the points required are cash fare based.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

As for those who have written, I can attest to the fact that Amtrak indeed makes up rules as they go along or when it benefits Amtrak. In redeeming the six upgrade coupons I've received, I've gotten five different "interpretations" of the rules. The last one was not being able to redeem the upgrade coupon from Business to First on Acela because I had a "Disability Fare"....Amtrak justified this under the very last line of the conditions paragraph as "Other conditions may apply"...............and when asked specifically for a list of all "other conditions" Amtrak agent mumbled, "I don't have time for that now."...............

So I guess if you're wearing a blue shirt that day Amtrak can decide, no upgrades for those in blue shirts today and justify it by citing, "Other conditions may apply"..................

I think the disability, senior, etc fares are ALWAYS excluded because you already got a discount/special from them.

 

[benale]

Yeah, I guess null and void are not the right terms to use. What i was trying to say is that I booked the longest possible trip I could take using a two zone roomette award for 20,000 points and I chose El Paso to Fort Lauderdale. Five days and four nights. I am also using two trains that have very high prices for their sleepers The Cardinal and The Silver Meteor. After the new system goes into place next month there is no way I could afford a trip like this, point wise or cash wise.. As I mentioned, the 20,000 point zone redemption I made now would be 65,000 points under the new system. Actually, I'm leaving from Los Angeles the night before and riding coach to El Paso where the zone occurs..so five nights on the train. One night in coach is fine, as the anticipation of the sleeper the next day will be with me.

With the 100point minimum soon to be history, my point runs will be gone, so I wanted this "one last hurrah" I earned about 10,000 points this past fall using $12 round trips each week at 450 points with Select.. If i were to cancel after 1/24 the 20,000 points(minus 10%)would be returned,but I would probably use them in an entirely different way.

 

[chakk]

I made a zone based reservation for March earlier this month. Everything is the same until 1/24. If you cancel before that date there is no penalty. After 1/24 it is 10%. Also if you have booked a zone reservation for anytime after the new rules take effect, it will be null and void if you cancel after that date when AGR goes to a cash based system.

I booked the longest 20,000 point roomette reservation I could find for March. If I had to cancel after Jan 24 it would cost me 55,000 points for the same itinerary.

I don't think "null and void" is quite the right way to express how it will all go down. Obviously cancelling before the trip starts (but on/after Jan 24) will return the points minus the 10% penalty. They won't allow for a modification that uses the old rules for point costs, but rather subject to the new rules where the points required are cash fare based.

But, if you cancel within 24 hrs of a non-sleeper trip or 14 days of a sleeper trip, then the total penalty increases to 20%.

 

[printman2000]

Well, my fears of the new system have been realized.

When I went to book my trip from Lamy to San Diego under the old system, I could not. We were planning to leave on July 4th which is a blackout day on the old system. So I booked the return trip on the old and figured going one way on the new would not be too bad. The calculator told me it would be around 33,000 instead of just 30,000 (two roomettes).

Now the new system. First off, the website apparently still cannot let you book anything with a transfer using points. So I plugged in Lamy to Los Angeles on July 4th. It is showing 59,340 for $860 ticket cost. That is TWICE as much as the calculator showed. I could go round trip for that amount!

Apparently, there is a huge point increase on what use to be blackout days. On July 5th, where the cost is actually MORE ($994), the point cost is only 34,293.

This is really killing all the plans I have made. Sure would have been nice if they had disclosed this HUGE points markup that would happen on some blackout dates.

 

[willem]

Something is wrong there, if the award travel is revenue-based at 34.5 points per dollar. This would warrant a call to AGR for clarification. But first, I would enter the information again and make sure there was no mistake in interpreting the output, such as it really being for a trip with a transfer or misreading the number of points required.

 

[printman2000]

Something is wrong there, if the award travel is revenue-based at 34.5 points per dollar. This would warrant a call to AGR for clarification. But first, I would enter the information again and make sure there was no mistake in interpreting the output, such as it really being for a trip with a transfer or misreading the number of points required.

Apparently, (and other have told be this should have been obvious), they artificially jack up the points costs on what was previously blackout dates.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

See this on FlyerTalk. It may be a computer glitch

http://www.flyertalk...ml#post26071141

 

[willem]

Could you post your exact itinerary? I just asked amtrak.com for a reservation from Lamy to Los Angeles on July 04 for two adults in two roomettes, and it asked for 48,162 points. It offered Lamy to San Diego for two adults in two bedrooms (not roomettes) for 36,639 points. I'd suggest booking two bedrooms ASAP.

Yes, for two adults in two roomettes, it said call for price, but that became moot once it offered the bedroom price.

 

[willem]

When I view the screenshot I just posted, the point value is off-screen and I cannot scroll to it. Am I doing something wrong?

Here is the same screen with different cropping.

 

[printman2000]

I did happen upon the lower points value for two bedrooms which I have been thinking about jumping on. I was hoping to talk to someone before just to check on roomette prices but have been on hold now 54 minutes.

 

[willem]

Good. I'll suspend my efforts to post an image that includes all the relevant information.

 

[printman2000]

Went ahead and tried to book the bedrooms but got an error when I submitted the final page.

We are unable to complete this redemption reservation on Amtrak.com

 

[printman2000]

Went ahead and tried to book the bedrooms but got an error when I submitted the final page.

We are unable to complete this redemption reservation on Amtrak.com

Tried again and got it to go through. More points that I wanted/planned to spend but oh well.

 

[willem]

It sounds like there are teething problems at amtrak.com.

Did you get the bedrooms?

 

[printman2000]

It sounds like there are teething problems at amtrak.com.

Did you get the bedrooms?

Yes. Still about 16,000 more points than I planned to spend. They did not even assign them as ones that can open up into a suite. May call at some point and see if they will change one.

 

[RickIronton]

I checked last month for a Denver to Tampa roomette and it was 20,000 points.

Today the same itinerary is 42,000 points.

I should have booked last month before the new system took effect, which I think has diminished accumulated points by half!

It's quite a points hike, none of which is in the loyal customers favor.

Instead of increasing customers, they seem to be intent on running us off!