new amtrak line

[johnb]

My name is John Brayfield and I am a reporter for the Community Free Press in Springfield, Missouri. I am currently working on a story about the proposed project for an Amtrak passenger rail line running from Springfield to St. Louis. If anyone has any information about this project, or a comment about the project, I would greatly appreciate your in-put. You may view an online verson of the Community Free Press at www.cfpmidweek.com. I hope adding this website does not constitute a no-no on this board. Thank you for your help....johnb

 

[AlanB]

John,

I see nothing wrong with your adding a link and I've in fact fixed the link to make it clickable to our members. I'm also going to move this post into our Amtrak discussion forum, as I suspect that many more people will see it over there and that will increase the odds of your getting responses.

 

[George Harris]

I have no real information on this proposal other than the one page release from MoDOT, which I would assume that you already have. Would a couple of paragraphs of general history of the railroad be of interest? I can later flesh out the brief information below, and probably improve on a lot of the times given.

Quick outline from memory:

The line was originaly the St. Louis - San Francisco, commonly called the Frisco. It actually never got west of Quanah, Texas, which is 150 or so miles southwest of Oklahoma City. The Frisco took over the Kansas City Ft. Scott and Memphis and the Kansas City Memphis and Birmingham (which only ran Memphis to Birmingham) sometime between their construction in the 1880's and about 1900. This made Springfield the hub of the Frisco system, which was more or less a large "X" in shape with Springfield at the crossing point. At its greatest extent, the Frisco reached from Kansas City to Birmingham with brancehs out of Amory, Mississippi to Pensacola FL and, via the AT&N, to Mobile AL, and St. Louis to Oklahoma City, with branches from Monett MO to Paris TX, from Sapulpa OK to Dallas and Ft. Worth, beyond Oklahoma City to Lawton OK and on to Floydada TX via the wholy owned QA&P, from Tulsa to Avard OK. There was also the River Line between St. Louis and Memphis.

The St. Louis to Springfield line was a major passenger carrier into the 50's, with the top trains being theTexas Special and the Meteor. The Texas Special was a joint train with the Missouri Kansas Texas (the Katy) and ran St. Louis to San Antonio, serving both Dallas and Ft. Worth along the way. For many years it carried through sleepers from east coast points and also Chicago. The Meteor was an overnight train between St. Louis and Oklahoma City with through sleepers also to Ft. Smith, Arkansas. There was a secondary train called the Will Rogers that also ran St. Lous to Oaklahoma City that operated as a day trian in its later years.

There was also for many years passenger trains through Springfield on the Kansas City to Birmingham line. The top train was the Kansas City - Florida Spcial that ran through to Jacksonville, and at times carrying through sleepers all the way to Miami. The secondary train was the Sunnyland that came through Springfield mid day, running Kansas City to Birmingham. Up to the sometime in the 50's, this trian carried through sleepers from Memphis to both Atlanta and Pensacola.

The Texas Special was discontinued in the late 50's to 1960 time frame. The Meteor, and the KC Florida Special, were discontinued in about 1965 or 1966. The Will Rogers was renamed (I think) and given nicer coaches that formerly operated in the Meteor, but was itself discontinued in about mid 1967, ending passenger service between St. Louis, Springfield and Oklahoma City. The last scheduled passenger train through Springfield was discontinued in December 1967. It was the renamed Sunnyland which ran Kansas City - Spriingfield - Memphis - Birmingham.

The Frisco was absorbed into Burlington Northern in about 1981. Today the line in question, and most of the former Frisco is the Springfield Division of Burlington Northern Santa Fe (BNSF).

I will come back later with run times for St. Louis to Springfield trains as they existed in the 1950's.

There is a Frisco Historical Society that could add a lot of information, and more solid information. They can be found on the web, and may well have people that you can talk to right there in Springfield. There are may ex-Frisco employees in the Springfield area.

George

 

[jphjaxfl]

In early 1965, the Frisco petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission to discontinue all their passanger trains which consisted of the Meteor and Will Rogers from St. Louis to Oklahoma City, the Ft. Smith section of the Meteor from Monette, Mo to Ft Smith Ar, the Kansas City-Florida Special and the Sunnyland from Kansas City to Birmingham and the St. Louis section of the Sunnyland from St. Louis to Memphis. After train off hearings in cities along the line (one of which I attended as a High School student with my Dad), the ICC in its infinite wisdom allowed the discontinuance of all Frisco trains except for two new trains developed by the ICC which Frisco was required to operate for a minimum of 1 year. The trains were the Oklahoman between St. Louis and Oklahoma City and the Southland (not to be confused with an earlier Cincinnati to Florida train discontinued in 1959) between Kansas City to Birmingham. The two trains were coaches wth limited food service. After one year, the Frisco petitioned again to discontinue the ICC mandated trains. The Oklahoman came off in 1966 but the Southland lasted until 1967. There were many more protests of the train discontinuance on the Kansas City to Birmingham route due to lack of alternative transportation such as intercity bus service or interstate highways. The St. Louis-Oklahoma City route paralleled Interstate 40 and there was intercity bus service so the trains were not missed as much.

 

[George Harris]

two new trains developed by the ICC which Frisco was required to operate for a minimum of 1 year. The trains were the Oklahoman between St. Louis and Oklahoma City and the Southland (not to be confused with an earlier Cincinnati to Florida train discontinued in 1959) between Kansas City to Birmingham. The two trains were coaches wth limited food service. After one year, the Frisco petitioned again to discontinue the ICC mandated trains. The Oklahoman came off in 1966 but the Southland lasted until 1967.

Thanks. I had forgotten the names and did not know the time of death of the Oklahoman. 66 through 68 were my last two years of college as an engineering major, so I was somewhat busy. When these trains first kicked off, the Southland carried a sleeper all the way from KC to Birmingham and a snack car or diner lounge type car between KC and Memphis. After a few months the sleeper was cut back to Memphis to Birmingham and somewhat later disspaeared altogether. I rode it B'ham to Memphis in late 1966 and it was sleeperless, but the food car, whatever it was and another coach were added at Memphis for the run to KC. The Oklahoman had food service St. Louis to Tulsa. These trains were scheduled so that all four were in Springfield at the same time, so you make any possible connections. This gave a really early departure / late arrival on the Oklahoma City end. Essentially these trains were upgraded Will Rogers and Sunnylands with quite a few of the smaller stops eliminated. The last run of the Southland was the northbound train in early December 1967. It was a couple of days before I got home for Christmas break. There was a picture in the Memphis newspaper, as it was the last passenger train to cross the Mississippi River at Memphis. With its departure, the only passenger service left in Memphis Central Station, maybe Memphis, period was Illinois Central. A couple of days after arriving, I saw what had to have been the equipment of the last southbound train going across the hump at Tennessee Yard. Not the engines. Don't know where they were.

The KC Florida Special's death was hastened by Southern discontinuing Jesup GA to Jacksonville in early 1965 and making sure there was a non-connection in Atlanta with the Royal Palm, so that the "Florida" part of its name was no longer possible.

George

 

[johnb]

two new trains developed by the ICC which Frisco was required to operate for a minimum of 1 year. The trains were the Oklahoman between St. Louis and Oklahoma City and the Southland (not to be confused with an earlier Cincinnati to Florida train discontinued in 1959) between Kansas City to Birmingham. The two trains were coaches wth limited food service. After one year, the Frisco petitioned again to discontinue the ICC mandated trains. The Oklahoman came off in 1966 but the Southland lasted until 1967.

Thanks. I had forgotten the names and did not know the time of death of the Oklahoman. 66 through 68 were my last two years of college as an engineering major, so I was somewhat busy. When these trains first kicked off, the Southland carried a sleeper all the way from KC to Birmingham and a snack car or diner lounge type car between KC and Memphis. After a few months the sleeper was cut back to Memphis to Birmingham and somewhat later disspaeared altogether. I rode it B'ham to Memphis in late 1966 and it was sleeperless, but the food car, whatever it was and another coach were added at Memphis for the run to KC. The Oklahoman had food service St. Louis to Tulsa. These trains were scheduled so that all four were in Springfield at the same time, so you make any possible connections. This gave a really early departure / late arrival on the Oklahoma City end. Essentially these trains were upgraded Will Rogers and Sunnylands with quite a few of the smaller stops eliminated. The last run of the Southland was the northbound train in early December 1967. It was a couple of days before I got home for Christmas break. There was a picture in the Memphis newspaper, as it was the last passenger train to cross the Mississippi River at Memphis. With its departure, the only passenger service left in Memphis Central Station, maybe Memphis, period was Illinois Central. A couple of days after arriving, I saw what had to have been the equipment of the last southbound train going across the hump at Tennessee Yard. Not the engines. Don't know where they were.

The KC Florida Special's death was hastened by Southern discontinuing Jesup GA to Jacksonville in early 1965 and making sure there was a non-connection in Atlanta with the Royal Palm, so that the "Florida" part of its name was no longer possible.

George

Thanks guys, this is invaluable information. It will be great background for a story. Seems that if Amtrak has any plans for a line from Springfield to St. Loius they are really keeping it quiet. I understand they are in the process of doing a feasibility study and cost effectiveness study to determine if the rail service will fly. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I am just a reporter not an expert on what might and might not help our desperate need in this country to conserve fuel and at the same time move people and products across Missouri and the rest of the country. I was wondering if anyone knew where I might come across a picture of one of these old trains that we could run in our paper. A picture is always worth a thousand words. I don't know that it would make any difference, but letters to Amtrak from anyone who feels they would benefit from this proposed line couldn't hurt. Thanks again for the info. I have personally ridden trains from coast to coast since I was two years old and have always enjoyed it. I am 59 now and would use that line myself at least a dozen times throughout the year...johnb

 

[MrFSS]

Thanks guys, this is invaluable information. It will be great background for a story. Seems that if Amtrak has any plans for a line from Springfield to St. Loius they are really keeping it quiet. I understand they are in the process of doing a feasibility study and cost effectiveness study to determine if the rail service will fly. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I am just a reporter not an expert on what might and might not help our desperate need in this country to conserve fuel and at the same time move people and products across Missouri and the rest of the country. I was wondering if anyone knew where I might come across a picture of one of these old trains that we could run in our paper. A picture is always worth a thousand words. I don't know that it would make any difference, but letters to Amtrak from anyone who feels they would benefit from this proposed line couldn't hurt. Thanks again for the info. I have personally ridden trains from coast to coast since I was two years old and have always enjoyed it. I am 59 now and would use that line myself at least a dozen times throughout the year...johnb

John - don't know if you are interested, but here is an auction link for a 1949 Frisco Timetable at a decent price. It might have info on history you could use.AUCTION

 

[Clyde Deep East Texas]

Thanks guys, this is invaluable information. It will be great background for a story. Seems that if Amtrak has any plans for a line from Springfield to St. Loius they are really keeping it quiet. I understand they are in the process of doing a feasibility study and cost effectiveness study to determine if the rail service will fly. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I am just a reporter not an expert on what might and might not help our desperate need in this country to conserve fuel and at the same time move people and products across Missouri and the rest of the country. I was wondering if anyone knew where I might come across a picture of one of these old trains that we could run in our paper. A picture is always worth a thousand words. I don't know that it would make any difference, but letters to Amtrak from anyone who feels they would benefit from this proposed line couldn't hurt. Thanks again for the info. I have personally ridden trains from coast to coast since I was two years old and have always enjoyed it. I am 59 now and would use that line myself at least a dozen times throughout the year...johnb

John - don't know if you are interested, but here is an auction link for a 1949 Frisco Timetable at a decent price. It might have info on history you could use.AUCTION

After looking at the press release, this looks like less an AMTRAK initiative than a state of Missouri initiative for a state-funded/subsidized service, like unto th Heartland Flyer between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City, or thre Chicago-Michigan service on the Wolverine. Bottom line on these is, if the state(s) invoved come up with teh money, AMTRAK will run the service. This can be a good deal for all concerned.

 

[lepearso]

Seems I read somewhere very recently that a recent meeting between Amtrak and the City of Tulsa mentioned the possibility of new Amtrak service between St. Louis and Springfield, and thus the possibility that an extension of that service could serve Tulsa. So, if Amtrak service in Missouri is getting attention in Oklahoma, then something is cooking! Perhaps, just perhaps, we're getting ready to welcome another state-supported service in the forseeable future!

 

[George Harris]

there is an extensive web site on Memphis area railroads and passenger trains maintained by Christian Brothers University professor Mike Condren. The site can be found at www.cbu.edu/~mcondren/MRP This gets you to an index page. If you want to use any of the pictures, you should contact him at mcondren<at>cbu.edu. (I make it a habit to never type in the "at" symbol in someone's address on a web site.)

A number of Frisco train pictures can be found on the page related to Central Station. Unfortunately, all that are on the site are in or near Memphis. However, Prof. Condren went to school at Rolla for part of his education, so he may have pictures of Frisco trains on the St, Louis to Springfield line. I am getting "not found" for several things on his web site, so there have been changes. This one worked.

www.cbu.edu/~mcondren/MRP/0055H.SLSF.wb.pass.tr.12-67.jpg

This is a picture of the last Frisco train out of Memphis, which would also be the last scheduled passenger train through Springfield. "Southland" train No. 102. It has just entered Arkansas and is going west on the west approach fill to the Mississippi River bridge. December 9, 1967. It will be in Springfield later in the day on its way to ending Frisco passenger service with its arrival at Kansas City. Somewhat fuzzy, but appears to be a picture taken through a windshield.

From the December 1952 Official Guide, there were three trains each way between St. Louis and Springfield, all overnight trains to points in Texas or Olkahoma. Sometime later this would change to be one night train and one day train each way on their run between St. Louis and Oklahoma. Their run times between St. Louis and Springfield were between 5 hours and 6 hours, with the fastest being the Texas Special - Nos. 1 and 2 which stopped at Tower Grove, Webster Groves, Rolla, Newburg, and Lebanon. At that time, Newburg was a crew change point. The Meteor - Nos. 9 and 10 made identical stops, but was scheduled 25 minutes slower. The distance between St. Louis Union Station and Springfield's Frisco station was 239.3 miles.

To the best of my knowledge, the speed limits on the Frisco never exceeded 70 mph for passenger trains and 55 mph for freight trains. The St. Louis to Springfield line is quite curvey, so was never and cannot be a high speed railroad without a lot of realignment. The freight train speed limit was 50 mph in 2002 according to some information I have. No separate passenger traiin speed limits were given in 2002.

Other trains in Springfield:

In 1952 all passenger trains serving Springfield consisted of

3 trains to/from St. Louis, some carrying through sleepers to Chicago and east coast points.

2 trains to/from Oklahoma City, with one providing through sleeper to Joplin, Mo. and another providing a through sleeper to Ft. Smith, Ark.

1 train to/from San Antonio via Vinita, Okla,

2 trains to/from Kansas City via Ft. Scott, Kansas and one train via Clinton, Mo.

2 trains to Memphis and Birmingham, with one of these carrying on to Jacksonville, Fla.

The Texas train, the Texas Special was discontinued sometime in the late 50's. It had been the railroad's premier train, but suffered from poor timekeeping in its later years due to poor track on the MKT portion south of Vinita. It also had identically scheduled competition between St. Louis and Dallas with the Missouri Pacific's Texas Eagle. The TE also beat the Special's time between St. Louis and Austin/San Antonio. Soemwhere in this time frame, the Will Rogers was changed from an overnight train to a St. Louis to Oklahoma City day train. After that point, Springfiled service consisted of:

2 trains to/from St. Louis - Meteor and Will Rogers

2 trains to/from Oklahoma City - M & WR

1 train to/from Ft. Smith, Arkansas - Meteor connection

2 trains to/from Kansas City - Kansas City Florida Special and Sunnyland

2 trians to/from Birmingham, with KC-Fla Sp. still continuing to Jacksonville. Even though the Sunnyland was shown as one train, all passengers actually had to change trains at Memphis.

To give some idea of the nature of the trains of the early 50's:

In 1952, the Texas Special caried the following equipment:

Sleeping cars:

"car 11" St. Louis to San Antonio - 1 drawing room, 2 double bedroom, lounge observation

"car 10" St. Louis to San Antonio - 12 section 1 drawing room

"car 12" Washington to San Antonio - 14 roomette 4 double bedroom

"car 14" St. Louis to Dallas - 14 roomette 4 double bedroom

"car 15" New York to San Antonio - 14 roomette 4 double bedroom

"car 16" St. Louis to Dallas - 14 roomette 4 double bedroom

"car 18" St. Louis to Ft. Worth - 14 roomette 4 double bedroom

Dining Cars:

St. Louis to Springfield, Mo.

Muskogee, Okla. to San Antonio

Reclining Seat Coaches (no numbers given)

St Louis to San Antonio

St. Louis to Fort Worth

George