New diesel locomotive options?

[Bjartmarr]

With many of Amtrak's diesels reaching their end of life within the next 5 years, and pretty much all of them in the next 10 years, what are Amtrak's plans for replacing them?

I know that Siemens is gearing up to make plenty of Chargers, and it looks like it would be a good replacement for the P42's. But while the states have secured options for over 250 of them, as far as I know Amtrak hasn't made any plans to actually buy any Chargers for Amtrak LD use. Is this solely due to lack of funding, or is Amtrak still unsure as to which locomotives it will buy?

Is the EMD F125 an option at all? I understand it's to be 14'7", 3" taller than the P42, so that would be a definite minus if it won't fit in the eastern tunnels. But I suppose there's plenty of a market for tall diesels out West.

Are there any other models being designed that they might pursue?

Are they going to try to transition to only a single model of locomotive, in order to save on maintenance and inventory costs? Or will they buy a couple of different models, in order to hedge their bets should one model turn out to be a dud?

 

[amtrakwolverine]

The Chargers will be owned by the states themselves. If they are going to fund the trains 100% might as well use your own equipment.

 

[afigg]

With many of Amtrak's diesels reaching their end of life within the next 5 years, and pretty much all of them in the next 10 years, what are Amtrak's plans for replacing them?

I know that Siemens is gearing up to make plenty of Chargers, and it looks like it would be a good replacement for the P42's. But while the states have secured options for over 250 of them, as far as I know Amtrak hasn't made any plans to actually buy any of them. Is this solely due to lack of funding, or is Amtrak still unsure as to which locomotives it will buy?

....

Are they going to try to transition to only a single model of locomotive, in order to save on maintenance and inventory costs? Or will they buy a couple of different models, in order to hedge their bets should one model turn out to be a dud?

The Siemens contract has options for up to 225 additional locomotives. 150 of those options are for "long distance" locomotives, obviously for Amtrak LD network and likely some medium distance corridor routes. Up to 75 are corridor trains. So Amtrak has the contract vehicle and a production line available to purchase Charger locomotives for both the LD fleet and for state supported corridors, if the states don't opt to buy the locomotives themselves, I think CA will buy more Charger locomotives and will eventually own all the rolling stock used on the CA corridor routes. I suspect the Midwest states (minus IN) will end up doing the same with the locomotives along with the bi-level cars as a Midwest consortium group. The situation with the eastern states is more complex with the NEC and multiple corridors off of the NEC.

As for Amtrak, they don't have the funds to replace the entire P-42 fleet, so they may have to place orders in smaller batch buys if it can even manage to swing that. But it also would make sense to wait until a batch of Siemens Chargers have entered service and get some miles on them from the current order to see how well they perform before committing to order Chargers for the LD fleet. On the other hand, the Siemens Chargers are based on the same platform as the ACS-64s with common parts, so there should be cost savings in maintenance, parts, and training by having a fleet of ACS-64s electrics and Charger diesels.

 

[pvd]

If they are reliable, meet economic and performance targets, and keep jobs in the US the majority of the people who actually ride Amtrak will not care what they look like.

 

[xyzzy]

I don't care what the locomotives look like. What matters is reliability, performance, conformance to standards (e.g. emissions), etc... and price, so that sufficient numbers can be purchased.

 

[FriskyFL]

Have the U.S. manufacturers (GE, EMD) essentially abandoned the passenger locomotive market?

 

[PerRock]

Have the U.S. manufacturers (GE, EMD) essentially abandoned the passenger locomotive market?

EMD has not, they're making an F125, to date only Metrolink has bought any. EMD also tried really hard to pull whatever legal strings they could to get Siemens disqualified from the Multi-State order; but failed. GE doesn't seem to be interested in making any at the moment. The other US manufacturer, MPI also submitted a bid for the (now) Chargers. MPI however has been quite busy lately making commuter locomotives. I haven't heard anything from US RailCar (while not strictly a locomotive company, they do have the ability to make locomotives)

peter

 

[pvd]

EMD has a contract to supply a bunch to Metrolink. But the Siemens are built in California with US sourced parts, don't really care where HQ is

 

[user 1215]

I wish Bombardier would resurrect the JetTrain.

:wub:

 

[jis]

I wish Bombardier would resurrect the JetTrain.

:wub:

They will need to get the FRA to fund it

 

[PerRock]

But the Siemens are built in California with US sourced parts, don't really care where HQ is

With the 'Buy American' laws, even if a foreign company; such as Siemens; the majority of the locomotives would have to be built here in the states.

Here are some foreign companies that could conceivably make an offer:

Siemens Already is making the ACS-64 and Charger locomotives. Well established in the world market as a leader.

Alstom Siemen's biggest competitor, Made the Acelas & HHP-8s with Bombardier, kind of looked down upon because of that.

Nippon Shayro Well established here for their commuter train cars, makes the Shinkansen in Japan.

Kawasaki Again well established making commuter cars & rapid transit, makes tons of other stuff elsewhere

Bombardier See Alstom, does own ASEA, which made the AEM-7s however. Widely used overseas

Vossloh Fairly new to the business (made track before) doing interesting things & really making an effort at Innotrans

Hyundai Rotem Most well known for their train cars used by Metrolink & TriRail, which are built & shipped over for S.K.

Yes, I know there are others...

I forgot one US manufacturer before, NREC, it isn't much of a contender. They primarily make Genset switchers & have a fairly small manufacturing size.

peter

Edit: quick clarification, by "Majority of the locomotives" I mean the majority of each locomotive.

 

[Bjartmarr]

What distinguishes a "commuter" locomotive such as the ones that MPI makes from a long-distance locomotive? A commuter would need a smaller fuel tank, I guess. The only other differences I can think of involve HEP: a commuter is likely to spend less time generating HEP while stopped because they rarely have to wait for the tracks to clear. And a commuter is unlikely to generate traction without HEP because they're rarely run as multiple units. There's probably some impact there on the decision whether to generate HEP from the prime mover or from a seperate HEP diesel, but I'm not sure what that impact would be.

 

[George K]

I wish Bombardier would resurrect the JetTrain.

:wub:

Meh. We need http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertrain

 

[pvd]

EMD licenses quite a bit of Vossloh stuff for its new passenger loco.

 

[PerRock]

What distinguishes a "commuter" locomotive such as the ones that MPI makes from a long-distance locomotive? A commuter would need a smaller fuel tank, I guess. The only other differences I can think of involve HEP: a commuter is likely to spend less time generating HEP while stopped because they rarely have to wait for the tracks to clear. And a commuter is unlikely to generate traction without HEP because they're rarely run as multiple units. There's probably some impact there on the decision whether to generate HEP from the prime mover or from a seperate HEP diesel, but I'm not sure what that impact would be.

Tractive power, a Commuter locomotive doesn't need to haul as much; they have very light loads compared to a long distance train. Commuter lines also want a lower 0-60 time then a long distance locomotive. Long distance locomotives need to be (generally) better at 'cruising' then commuter lines.

Basically commuter lines are more concerned with stop & go stats whereas long distance lines are more concerned with long cruising stats.

peter

 

[xyzzy]

Acceleration rather than sustained high speed is the big difference. In the days of DC traction motors, this was mainly an issue of gearing although electricals could factor in too. Smaller fuel tanks, possibly, for commuter locomotives (and in the old days, smaller water tanks for steam generators). HEP requirements are more of a function of train length, and one can't assume that commuter trains are always shorter than LD trains. Another factor could conceivably be clearance. The P40/42 carbody allows operation virtually anywhere in North America. A commuter locomotive might have to have sufficient clearance only for where it operates, plus trackage to/from manufacturer or maintenance shop.

 

[George K]

one can't assume that commuter trains are always shorter than LD trains

I live a block and a half from the BNSF line in suburban Chicago. Not unusual to see 8 car trains. I may have even seen longer.

 

[Guest]

Nobody has mentioned Brookville , A nice looking loco.

 

[afigg]

Is the EMD F125 an option at all? I understand it's to be 14'7", 3" taller than the P42, so that would be a definite minus if it won't fit in the eastern tunnels. But I suppose there's plenty of a market for tall diesels out West.

BTW, the EMD F125 was designed to meet Amtrak's clearance requirement for operating anywhere in the Amtrak system, including the NYP tunnels. EMD did submit the F125 for the Next Gen diesel RFP and meeting the Amtrak clearance specification was a very fundamental requirement in the RFP.

All Aboard Florida selected the Siemens Charger diesels for their trains so EMD lost to Siemens on 2 significant contracts.

Marketing data sheets are available for the 2 locomotives (both are 2 page PDF files)

EMD F125

Siemens Chargers for the Midwest and CA order

 

[PRR 60]

General Electric was not willing to redesign for 125mph, so they declined to bid the passenger locomotive project. No tears need be shed. GE Transportation is not hurting for business.

 

[jis]

Doesn't EMD also have a problem with meeting the new emission standards? I thought I read somewhere that they were out of business for a year or so until they solve that problem.

 

[Big Iron]

Nobody has mentioned Brookville , A nice looking loco.

You're right, it is. Looks like it rides on an updated version of Blomberg trucks

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/railproducts/graphics/LOCO-BRKVL-COMM09.jpg

 

[MetraUPWest]

Jis-

EMD is no longer producing North American freight locomotives because the 710 engine can not meet Tier 4 emissions standards.

The F125 is powered by a Cat which requires Urea injection. If Amtrak ordered them for LD service they would have to install Urea filling stations at every fueling point on the system. That would cost a LOT of money.

The freight railroads all refuse to buy a locomotive with Urea injection for that reason, and it seems likely that Amtrak feels the same way.

The Cummins QSK95 that the Siemens Charger will have is designed meet Tier 4 without Urea injection, though that engine is only in a VERY early testing phase. Who lnows how well it will perform in the real world.

In my opinion, Amtrak's best option for the time being would be to overhaul the current diesel fleet. The Genesis is only required to meet Tier 1 standards upon overhaul, which is easily attainable.

 

[MetraUPWest]

The Brookville shown above also does not meet Tier 4 standards so until it does it's no longer in production.

 

[ronkstevens]

I wish Bombardier would resurrect the JetTrain.

:wub:

Meh. We need http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertrain