New Dining Car Menus Nov. 4

[GaSteve]

I wonder if we can get back on topic here.

 

[BCL]

With Aramark you get what you pay for. Aramark had the contract for the cafeteria at my former employer and the food was quite good. They also handled the Executive dining room and staffed a private Chef. That food was extremely good in both quality and presentation. Sodexo replaced Aramark at the contract renewal and Aramark was missed.

Aramark is a large company. They previously ran the stadium concessions where I watched baseball. They also operate a variety of national park or similar concessions. They recently got the contract for Yosemite, which will include dining, lodging, stores, and services (like tours and the park shuttle).

For the most part it will be the local employees and management that will make the difference.

 

[fillyjonk]

Most "cafeteria service" plans have different levels of service (on my campus, we have Sodexho, and they have a, b, and c levels).

the "everyday" level - the cheap level, where stuff is most likely to be crummy - is the level served in the cafeteria on any average day.

the "b" level is sometimes served on special occasions, or when there are prospective students on campus (at events like Honors' Day). It is a cut above the "c" service.

the "a" service is pulled out and used when there are prospective donors, or parents, or other dignitaries on campus.

So you can see a really wide range of variation in the quality of the food. I would not choose to eat the "c" level cafeteria food if I had other options (I do - I bring my own lunch). But I would eat the "a" level food if I knew that was what was being offered.

The question is, which level will Amtrak use, and will they decide to ratchet back a level or two in the future in the name of "cost savings"?

And yes, I'm aware of the slightly cynical way the levels are used - serving the "good stuff" only when people who have money are on campus.

 

[JoeBas]

You should, as a student body, make a BIG DEAL about how much better the food is than the usual slop they serve, and how glad you are to see them so you can have edible food, when the Honors Day students are on campus. Something like that would get the folks' in charge attention pretty quick.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Most "cafeteria service" plans have different levels of service (on my campus, we have Sodexho, and they have a, b, and c levels).

the "everyday" level - the cheap level, where stuff is most likely to be crummy - is the level served in the cafeteria on any average day.

the "b" level is sometimes served on special occasions, or when there are prospective students on campus (at events like Honors' Day). It is a cut above the "c" service.

the "a" service is pulled out and used when there are prospective donors, or parents, or other dignitaries on campus.

So you can see a really wide range of variation in the quality of the food. I would not choose to eat the "c" level cafeteria food if I had other options (I do - I bring my own lunch). But I would eat the "a" level food if I knew that was what was being offered.

At a previous employer we had Aramark chefs that cooked the scheduled monthly menu but would also make daily specials or pretty much whatever you wanted from the available ingredients. I didn't like everything they made but there were several options I found to be genuinely fresh and tasty and a few that I really looked forward to eating. On those occasions when nothing appealed to me they would make something else I liked by request. It was an easy and cheap way to avoid the lunch rush at surrounding restaurants without ever having to leave the campus. I'm not sure what official "level" those meals were considered but they were easily three levels above the impossible to modify precooked frozen food Aramark serves on Amtrak today.

 

[KC Ghost Rider]

I figured it was time to add my two cents four dollars worth. Amtrak could easily run its own catering/dining services and commissary without a third party. I really have no problem with the food the dining car serves. If fact, I enjoy most items I order; especially the latest chocolate Mouse concoction...death by chocolate! However, what started out as a cost cutting move ends up costing more with a consistent mediocre product. Before someone starts asking me for the data/proof/analysis let me say it is my opinion based on my experience in the US Navy. In the early 1990's, I received orders to become the craft master of a service craft...a torpedo retriever. The humorous thing about service craft, they are not really meant for long-term habitation. Yet we would go to sea for a week or so. We had a galley (kitchen) of sorts and prepared our food underway. In 1992, I could collect about $10 per day per person and have some great meals. Fresh three cheese omelettes with raisin toast and grits for breakfast, Cheese burgers with buns and fixings and baked beans for lunch, and Panamanian rice with chicken plus salad for dinner. The menu had to rotate per order of the Naval service. Yes, we managed to bake cookies for snacks and desserts. We did not have a chef...we all had a radioman who doubled as cook and I helped plan the meals. A free crew member would help prepare and clean up. What money was left over, if any, was put into a fund for parties. If the Navy had allowed a third party service, it would have cost more in the long run and we could no longer control what was supplied. Amtrak has the equipment to cook fresh foods. The prices in the dining car ought to yield large margins on menu items. $11.50 for a hamburger...I wonder if a cook scaling the ground angus for equal patties, could produce three or for meals for that price. Amtrak could very well cut catering/dining service costs by doing some of these food preparations in house.

 

[BCL]

I figured it was time to add my two cents four dollars worth. Amtrak could easily run its own catering/dining services and commissary without a third party. I really have no problem with the food the dining car serves. If fact, I enjoy most items I order; especially the latest chocolate Mouse concoction...death by chocolate! However, what started out as a cost cutting move ends up costing more with a consistent mediocre product. Before someone starts asking me for the data/proof/analysis let me say it is my opinion based on my experience in the US Navy. In the early 1990's, I received orders to become the craft master of a service craft...a torpedo retriever. The humorous thing about service craft, they are not really meant for long-term habitation. Yet we would go to sea for a week or so. We had a galley (kitchen) of sorts and prepared our food underway. In 1992, I could collect about $10 per day per person and have some great meals. Fresh three cheese omelettes with raisin toast and grits for breakfast, Cheese burgers with buns and fixings and baked beans for lunch, and Panamanian rice with chicken plus salad for dinner. The menu had to rotate per order of the Naval service. Yes, we managed to bake cookies for snacks and desserts. We did not have a chef...we all had a radioman who doubled as cook and I helped plan the meals. A free crew member would help prepare and clean up. What money was left over, if any, was put into a fund for parties. If the Navy had allowed a third party service, it would have cost more in the long run and we could no longer control what was supplied. Amtrak has the equipment to cook fresh foods. The prices in the dining car ought to yield large margins on menu items. $11.50 for a hamburger...I wonder if a cook scaling the ground angus for equal patties, could produce three or for meals for that price. Amtrak could very well cut catering/dining service costs by doing some of these food preparations in house.

With Amtrak you're probably dealing with union issues for one. It's still going to require some sort of commissary, which Amtrak doesn't currently have, and a contractor can have economies of scale.

 

[neroden]

Amtrak refuses to exercise any form of quality control over the commissaries provided by Aramark -- something which Amtrak is perfectly capable of doing if they want to -- to the point of refusing to even get lists of ingredients for the products (something which I can get from any Aramark-supplied hotel).

The problem here lies in Amtrak management's unwillingness to do anything approximating best practice.

 

[rrdude]

Amtrak refuses to exercise any form of quality control over the commissaries provided by Aramark -- something which Amtrak is perfectly capable of doing if they want to -- to the point of refusing to even get lists of ingredients for the products (something which I can get from any Aramark-supplied hotel).

The problem here lies in Amtrak management's unwillingness to do anything approximating best practice.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep, it's management, whether it's in-house or out-sourced, Amtrak management should be held to task, for quality.

 

[OBS]

It has become apparent here that many people have a serious misunderstanding as to Aramark's role in relation to Amtrak. 99% of their job is Warehousing, Inventory control and train loading and unloading. The ONLY direct control they have over food products served on Amtrak is the Meal preparation in the flight kitchens of the food served on Acela FC. The menus are chosen by Amtrak Aramark just prepares the food.

All other food items are selected by Amtrak. Aramark does the purchasing and other work as indicated above. Don't like the choice , quality, variety, ingredients, quantity supplied to train, etc.? These are all managed by AMTRAK. Amtrak chooses the purveyor, brand, etc. Aramark just "makes it happen".

Until approximately 15-18 years ago, Amtrak managed the commissaries themselves. Let me assure you, the work Aramark does is "light years" ahead of the quality of work done by Amtrak managed commissaries. I mean this in terms of timeliness in loading/unloading trains, correctness in orders supplied to train, Control of theft, etc.

Hopefully this helps explain who and what in terms of responsibility...

 

[zephyr17]

Thanks, OBS. Can you shed any light on the pretty consistent under-supplying diners. I realize there has to be some chance of that to reduce waste, but it seems like they don't pay much attention to the actual passenger load on a given train. I've heard crew members comment to this effect.

 

[OBS]

Thanks, OBS. Can you shed any light on the pretty consistent under-supplying diners. I realize there has to be some chance of that to reduce waste, but it seems like they don't pay much attention to the actual passenger load on a given train. I've heard crew members comment to this effect.

Again, this is a management issue. I, also, assume it is to help reduce waste, but beyond that...I have not been directly involved with a diner in a few years...

I can say, though, that trips can be unpredictable, just like for the café service... one trip with 200 people, nobody eats, next trip w/ 200 and literally everyone eats...sometimes it is a no win situation...

 

[KC Ghost Rider]

I figured it was time to add my two cents four dollars worth. Amtrak could easily run its own catering/dining services and commissary without a third party. I really have no problem with the food the dining car serves. If fact, I enjoy most items I order; especially the latest chocolate Mouse concoction...death by chocolate! However, what started out as a cost cutting move ends up costing more with a consistent mediocre product. Before someone starts asking me for the data/proof/analysis let me say it is my opinion based on my experience in the US Navy. In the early 1990's, I received orders to become the craft master of a service craft...a torpedo retriever. The humorous thing about service craft, they are not really meant for long-term habitation. Yet we would go to sea for a week or so. We had a galley (kitchen) of sorts and prepared our food underway. In 1992, I could collect about $10 per day per person and have some great meals. Fresh three cheese omelettes with raisin toast and grits for breakfast, Cheese burgers with buns and fixings and baked beans for lunch, and Panamanian rice with chicken plus salad for dinner. The menu had to rotate per order of the Naval service. Yes, we managed to bake cookies for snacks and desserts. We did not have a chef...we all had a radioman who doubled as cook and I helped plan the meals. A free crew member would help prepare and clean up. What money was left over, if any, was put into a fund for parties. If the Navy had allowed a third party service, it would have cost more in the long run and we could no longer control what was supplied. Amtrak has the equipment to cook fresh foods. The prices in the dining car ought to yield large margins on menu items. $11.50 for a hamburger...I wonder if a cook scaling the ground angus for equal patties, could produce three or for meals for that price. Amtrak could very well cut catering/dining service costs by doing some of these food preparations in house.

With Amtrak you're probably dealing with union issues for one. It's still going to require some sort of commissary, which Amtrak doesn't currently have, and a contractor can have economies of scale.

The cost of labor is always a large part of the total cost of any operation; union or non-union. Economies of scale help reduce the cost for all parties, but is calculated to increase the provider's margins and maximize profit.

It has become apparent here that many people have a serious misunderstanding as to Aramark's role in relation to Amtrak. 99% of their job is Warehousing, Inventory control and train loading and unloading. The ONLY direct control they have over food products served on Amtrak is the Meal preparation in the flight kitchens of the food served on Acela FC. The menus are chosen by Amtrak Aramark just prepares the food.

All other food items are selected by Amtrak. Aramark does the purchasing and other work as indicated above. Don't like the choice , quality, variety, ingredients, quantity supplied to train, etc.? These are all managed by AMTRAK. Amtrak chooses the purveyor, brand, etc. Aramark just "makes it happen".

Until approximately 15-18 years ago, Amtrak managed the commissaries themselves. Let me assure you, the work Aramark does is "light years" ahead of the quality of work done by Amtrak managed commissaries. I mean this in terms of timeliness in loading/unloading trains, correctness in orders supplied to train, Control of theft, etc.

Hopefully this helps explain who and what in terms of responsibility...

Thank you for your clarification and explanation. My point is that some of these ready-to-serve and ready-to-heat and serve items might actually cost less to make on the train from raw ingredients. For example, my son loves those sweet onion Bubba Burgers and pays $15 for a 4 lb. box that yields 12 1/3 lb. patties. I bet him I could make a burger of like quality and taste for less, using raw ingredients such as lean ground chuck and sweet yellow onions. My cost for the 4 lbs. of meat was $10.64 plus one yellow onion $.69 for a total of $11.33. My 1/3 lb. patties tasted like his. This can be done if there is a will.

Ultimately this situation occurred due to a failure of leadership within Amtrak's catering/dining service. Management attempts at reducing cost just reduced service at the passenger's level. However, much could be done to properly provision a train and expand sales, thereby reducing operating loses.

Again, I do think you for elucidating the vendor's role and lines of responsibility. :hi:

 

[JoeBas]

You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.

Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?

 

[KC Ghost Rider]

You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.

Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?

I think $.31 buys me approximately 1 minute of time under the union pay scale. Personally, I can hand scale and pat 3-5 burgers in that one minute and that should cover the labor cost of a $.94 worth of raw materials that sells for $11.50. Yes, speed is important. I acknowledge there are challenges, but if Amtrak had the will it could be done. For what it is worth, just keeping with this one burger concept, the cost for the meal is: $4.49 ($.94 patty + $.60 potato chips + $.40 lettuce, tomato, onion, pickle + $1.00 bun + $1.55 for 5 minutes OBS labor). That leaves a margin of $7.01 to help off-set any variable and hidden costs...per burger. I do understand this is simplistic, but this is how a business covers costs (Amtrak's goal), becomes profitable (Business's goal), and then increases shareholder value by maximizing those profits year after year (investor's goal).

Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.

 

[BCL]

Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.

There are also issues with sanitation and cleanup. Right now it seems odd on the face of it, but there's a reason why more disposable plastic is used compared with Corelle. Having employees hand-preparing ground beef is an undertaking. It's frankly a lot more cost effective to just buy preformed burgers.

 

[zepherdude]

Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.

There are also issues with sanitation and cleanup. Right now it seems odd on the face of it, but there's a reason why more disposable plastic is used compared with Corelle. Having employees hand-preparing ground beef is an undertaking. It's frankly a lot more cost effective to just buy preformed burgers.

How about unsanitary and unhealthy as can be. Raw ground meat in a hot kitchen or car exposed to flys or cross contamination and unsanitary conditions. You might eat one but not me. Amtrak sanitation is ruled by USDA guidelines and must follow specific proceedures for food preparation. Thawed ground meat sitting in blood is not my idea of saving money.

 

[KC Ghost Rider]

Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.

There are also issues with sanitation and cleanup. Right now it seems odd on the face of it, but there's a reason why more disposable plastic is used compared with Corelle. Having employees hand-preparing ground beef is an undertaking. It's frankly a lot more cost effective to just buy preformed burgers.

How about unsanitary and unhealthy as can be. Raw ground meat in a hot kitchen or car exposed to flys or cross contamination and unsanitary conditions. You might eat one but not me. Amtrak sanitation is ruled by USDA guidelines and must follow specific proceedures for food preparation. Thawed ground meat sitting in blood is not my idea of saving money.

I am sure the sanitation requirements can be met. Raw meat is not sitting in a hot kitchen; it is in a refrigerator at 40° F or slightly below. It is covered and, while no kitchen totally prevents cross contamination, it is minimized using standard food safety practices. It will be cooked until reaching 160° F and held there for 40 seconds (a critical control point). Every Galley (kitchen) I worked in, or have been associated with, had zero major food safety violations. I can honestly say the ground beef never sat in blood, however, there is trace amounts...it is raw meat! Again, I will stipulate there could be microbial growth, but that can be adequately addressed by following standard food safety practices.

If you believe the boxed frozen patties are safer to eat, you really should visit a meat processing plant. I believe most people would become strict vegans afterwards. However, it is not my mission to argue about this topic. I had my opinion based on some experience catering/food service, business management, and logistics. I will maintain that there is a solution to the problem Amtrak faces with their catering/dining services. The person who thought the solution was to cut cost through decreased services to the customer, either real or perceived, will surely succeed in alienating all but the most loyal of patron.

 

[tricia]

You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.

Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?

Um, doesn't Amtrak pay on-board service staff for all their hours on board? The relevant question isn't how much time it takes to prepare fresh food, but rather how much of the time Amtrak is already paying for might (or might not) be available for this.

 

[niemi24s]

But we don't eat the hamburger patties raw. And if my understanding is correct, all those contaminants (blood's a contaminant?) mentioned are neutralized when the patty is properly cooked. Of course folks will now chime in with "How do I know my patty is properly cooked on the train?" You don't - no matter where it's cooked - unless you cook it yourself (with the aid of your trusty calibrated meat thermometer, no doubt).

In my opinion, we Americans are "ate up with the dumbs" when it comes to food preparation. Remember the ban in New Jersey on eggs over easy a few years ago? And witness the horrified reactions posted by some Americans to hamburger patties with pink centers and bacon that's not incinerated in a VIA Rail diner. I like Andrew Zimmern's motto: "If it looks good, eat it!" Just my 2¢ worth. YMMV too. .

 

[OBS]

You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.

Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?

Um, doesn't Amtrak pay on-board service staff for all their hours on board? The relevant question isn't how much time it takes to prepare fresh food, but rather how much of the time Amtrak is already paying for might (or might not) be available for this.

OBS staff is not paid for all hours on board. On LD trains, as long as dormitory (sleeper) space is available, OBS employees are only paid for the hours on duty...ie off payroll during evening/night time hours, and back on clock when required to start the next day.

 

[BCL]

But we don't eat the hamburger patties raw. And if my understanding is correct, all those contaminants (blood's a contaminant?) mentioned are neutralized when the patty is properly cooked. Of course folks will now chime in with "How do I know my patty is properly cooked on the train?" You don't - no matter where it's cooked - unless you cook it yourself (with the aid of your trusty calibrated meat thermometer, no doubt).

In my opinion, we Americans are "ate up with the dumbs" when it comes to food preparation. Remember the ban in New Jersey on eggs over easy a few years ago? And witness the horrified reactions posted by some Americans to hamburger patties with pink centers and bacon that's not incinerated in a VIA Rail diner. I like Andrew Zimmern's motto: "If it looks good, eat it!" Just my 2¢ worth. YMMV too. .

I don't think that's the issue. It's whether or not there's cross contamination of uncooked items. I recall a recommendation that raw chicken shouldn't be washed in a kitchen because it tends to aerosolize the blood, and since it's going to be cooked anyways.

 

[niemi24s]

I don't think that's the issue. It's whether or not there's cross contamination of uncooked items. I recall a recommendation that raw chicken shouldn't be washed in a kitchen because it tends to aerosolize the blood, and since it's going to be cooked anyways.

Aerosolize chicken blood? Other than whacking off the head of a live chicken and letting it run around loose or preparing raw un-bled chickens in a blender, how the heck does aerosolization occur?

 

[BCL]

I don't think that's the issue. It's whether or not there's cross contamination of uncooked items. I recall a recommendation that raw chicken shouldn't be washed in a kitchen because it tends to aerosolize the blood, and since it's going to be cooked anyways.

Aerosolize chicken blood? Other than whacking off the head of a live chicken and letting it run around loose or preparing raw un-bled chickens in a blender, how the heck does aerosolization occur?

It was well reported a few years ago that washing raw chicken tends to spread bacteria-laden liquid. The advice given was to just cook it thoroughly.

http://drexel.edu/dontwashyourchicken/

DON'T WASH YOUR CHICKEN

Although raw chicken and turkey can carry bacteria on their surfaces, research has shown that washing raw poultry under running water in your kitchen sink is a bad idea.

If germs were visible to the naked eye, you would see that washing poultry just splashes bacteria all over you, your kitchen towels, your countertops, and any other food you have nearby, such as raw foods or salads. This can make people sick, especially young children, pregnant women, older adults and the immunocompromised.

Instead, just take raw poultry straight from the package into the cooking pan. The heat from the cooking process will kill any bacteria that are present. Then simply clean up any splashes and wash your hands with soap and hot water.

 

[niemi24s]

Oh, now I see. Well, doing that does not produce an aerosol of blood or anything else. It simply spreads around contaminants from a chicken if it's washed like you were washing your car. IMHO, the video is nothing more than the usual "the sky is falling" blather from health pundits. Wonder how they'd want me to use that soap and water to wash my hands? [That's a rhetorical question - I don't need or want to know the answer]. Again, this is only my 2¢ worth.